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-- The Official Raptors Thread.
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And what's up with this "Zo doesn't wanna play in Toronto"?!!! Wtf was this deal for then? I guess Peddie fucked Toronto over yet again... BWHAHAHAA! Some things never change...
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| Originally posted by Crazy Serb And what's up with this "Zo doesn't wanna play in Toronto"?!!! Wtf was this deal for then? I guess Peddie fucked Toronto over yet again... BWHAHAHAA! Some things never change... |
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Saturday, December 18, 2004
V.C. deserves a standing O
By Adam Proteau
Special to ESPN.com
I'm glad Vince Carter's stay in Toronto is over, but not for the reasons most of my fellow Canadians are. Most of us, having lumped the former Air Canada into the same Hall of Shame as Ricky Williams and Ashlee Simpson, are smiling like lottery winners now that Vinsanity has vamoosed.
I'm happy, too, but not because Vince has taken his gimpy knees and his irritating iPod and his shoulder-shrug interview style to New Jersey. No, I'm happy that this guy, a solid citizen by almost everyone's estimation, no longer has to face the braying and smiting he's dealt with during the last six months. For all he's done for the Raptors, for all he's done for basketball in Canada -- and yes, for all he's done for the NBA -- Carter deserved a whole lot better.
At this point, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking my brain wattage has obviously lost a little something from the Canada-U.S. exchange rate. So let me be extra clear on this: I'm not saying Vince's training habits would make L.L. Cool J. faint with envy. I'm not saying his recuperative abilities would impress the Black Knight from "Monty Python and The Holy Grail." I'm certainly not saying the man's leadership skills are Jordanesque in nature.
But I am saying there's something wrong when a player is pilloried for possessing many of the same character traits we'd like our own kids to have.
I got to know Vince a little during the three years I covered the Raptors for a couple of Toronto radio stations. That period, which extended from Vince's sophomore year through to the infamous GraduGate flight into Philadelphia for the team's last-shot loss to Allen Iverson & Co., amounted to a golden era for basketball in Toronto.
During that time, the "Canada-as-igloo-laden-basketball-hinterland" stories no longer leaked from the typewriters of otherwise-accurate, U.S.-based NBA writers. In that time, Isiah Thomas finally stopped babbling on NBC's halftime shows about his footprint on the franchise -- which, after he left, could be located around the dinosaur's throat area. There was a sea change in the way the team and the city were perceived, and it wasn't because Mark Jackson or Mamadou N'diaye had set up shop north of the border.
Things changed because Carter almost single-handedly made them change. His dunks damn near tore the lid off the league, and got Canadians hooked on a game they'd have once passed over to watch curling. His ever-present smile and easygoing nature put the lie to the notion that elite NBAers could only be discovered by scraping the underbelly of the ghetto.
That he could cope with the cold exposed the rest of the league's so-called role models (I'm looking at you, Tracy McGrady) as a bunch of fairweather pantywaists willing to put shorts and sandals ahead of championships. Charity games, children's basketball clinics, investments in local businesses -- pick a part of Toronto, and it was likely Carter wanted to be a part of it.
And when things started to look really good for the Raptors, when they re-signed Antonio Davis, Jerome Williams and Alvin Williams to long-term deals, it was all because Carter wanted to be here. He was the straw and we were the drink.
Somewhere along the line, all of that stopped mattering. For the life of me, I can't figure out when, although I suspect seeds met soil when Carter embroiled himself in the aforementioned GraduGate: in other words, when he decided he wanted to attend graduation ceremonies at the University of North Carolina before heading off to play the Sixers in the deciding game of Toronto's second-round series in 2001. Carter had made it a point to finish college even after he'd bought his first Bentley; it was an admirable attempt to show the youngsters that an education really was worth their while.
Judging by the outcry, you would've thought Carter had sliced through his own ankle tendons in the hope of committing career suicide. The critics came at him frothy-faced and swollen with venom, all because this whippersnapper with the hype at his back had the audacity to finish school. The nerve! Sure, the NBA had been dining out on its "Stay in School" PR campaign for eons, but for someone to actually follow through on it -- well, it apparently was too much for such a self-important industry to swallow.
To his credit, Vince swallowed a whole lot more than that during his Toronto days. He watched his coach morph from hyper-controlling drill sergeant (Butch Carter) to absentee landlord (Lenny Wilkens) to wild child grudge-holder (Kevin O'Neill) to take-no-guff master of sarcasm (Sam Mitchell).
He watched them draft memorable disasters such as Aleksandar Radojevic, Ramon Van de Here, Michael Bradley and DeeAndre Huelett.
He watched them let Tracy McGrady walk off to Orlando in exchange for bupkis. He watched them get fleeced on the free agent market by an aging center whose name rhymes with Wakeem Ho-pa-lu-wan. He watched them overpay like a Madison Square Garden executive to re-sign the Raptors' own free agents.
But Carter never complained -- at least, not publicly. He'd always hoped there was a plan in place, that the braintrust at Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment would eventually summon up a combination of steering and skill. He was even willing to be part of the perpetual rebuild as late as last summer, until the franchise took things one step too far.
That happened when Raptors president Richard Peddie promised Carter he'd have significant input into the GM position vacated when Glen Grunwald had the proverbial can tied to him last spring. Carter favored NBA legend Julius Irving for the position, but Peddie and the rest of the Raptors Star Chamber involved with picking a new GM barely glossed over Dr. J.'s application before deciding on Rob Babcock.
I don't have a problem with Babcock, nor Mitchell for that matter, and I doubt Carter does either. But when a franchise make a promise to its franchise player, only to follow through on it halfassedly, you practically invite the modern NBA player -- with all the insecurities that inexplicably come along with a max-level deal -- to reevaluate how much he believes the franchise values him.
But all of his problems didn't mean Carter couldn't keep giving back to a community he so clearly cares for. Since the trade demand was made, he has visited the Sick Children's Hospital, and donated a $150,000 recreation complex to one of Toronto's disadvantaged districts. I don't imagine he'll stop being part of the city, on one level or another, for the rest of his life. Carter was the first star to truly embrace the place, and he's said his feelings won't change just because he doesn't have faith in the current ownership group. And I think he'd be the first to admit he'd rather have had things work out here than anywhere else.
That didn't happen, and we're poorer in Toronto for it now that he's gone. Unfortunately, when Carter comes back wearing a Nets uniform, he'll undoubtedly follow in the great tradition of former Raptor stars: booed every time he touches a ball on Air Canada Centre ground, booed in the pregame introductions, booed on the talk radio shows, booed in print and in cyberspace.
For most other players, such treatment has been well-deserved: Damon Stoudamire should forever hear it for bolting in the same heartbeat it took to hear buddy Isiah had split, even after Toronto crowds embraced him in a major way; and Tracy McGrady is equally deserving of a lifetime of raspberries for encouraging local kids to waste their energy drawing up "Stay In Toronto, T-Mac!"-type placards in the hopes of enticing the soon-to-be free agent to re-sign, when he knew all along there wasn't a hope it would happen. The grudges those knuckleheads have earned are worth clinging to.
But Vince? He deserves nothing less than a standing ovation the next time he's in town, whether in street clothes this Sunday, in uniform on April 15, or later on down the road. He embraced us for embracing him. He gave back to the community, whether the cameras were there or not. And he gave Toronto some of the greatest basketball memories it will ever have.
Adam Proteau is a writer for the The Hockey News. He can be reached at [email protected].
source:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?id=1948464
Totally agree with that
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Famous Last Words "I'm in charge around here." - Raptors press conference (04/01/04) "Hey, I'm just a suit." - FAN590 Prime Time Sports interview(04/01/04) "McCloskey said the team has eight GM candidates and will begin interviewing them on April 26. McCloskey said he'll decide who to hire. Peddie said two weeks ago that he would decide, and that McCloskey is more of an adviser." - Associated Press article (04/15/04) Pat Quinn, in response to comments made by Peddie in a radio interview: "You know what I've come to know in this organization? We've got lots of people who have things to say and really should be keeping their traps shut." (Nov 16, 2002) |
The sentiment of the article is right, that VC did a lot for the community, led a great 2-3yr run (not golden era.. pffft) And should be held in some good regard.
But the meat of that article is absolute fanboy crap. Carter only resigned here because the organisation bent to his every whim. Antonio Davis, Alvin Williams, Hakeem et all were all Carter demanded pieces of crap that hancuffed and crippled this franchise financially. The Raps have drafted shitty, but so have the other teams in the league. It's not like we've screwed up lottery picks. How many good players aren't here anymore because of Vince? T-Mac, Billups, Christie, etc.
He has been in the league 6 yrs, and only been productive in HALF of them. The book on Vince as a player is wide open. He's got loads of talent, but very little in the way of skill and fundamentals. He has as much heart and dedication as MLSE alumni Jonas Hoglund.
If Vince carried himself even remotely as a professional, we'd all be more than willing to give him his standing "O". Instead, he tanked it in order to force our hand, has always carried himself with an air of disdain. Although it may have been directed @ the media jokers covering him, they are simply the filters that we see him through.
Add all the rose coloured glass you want, but we all see what he's made of.
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| Originally posted by crazedcanuck But the meat of that article is absolute fanboy crap. Carter only resigned here because the organisation bent to his every whim. Antonio Davis, Alvin Williams, Hakeem et all were all Carter demanded pieces of crap that hancuffed and crippled this franchise financially. The Raps have drafted shitty, but so have the other teams in the league. It's not like we've screwed up lottery picks. How many good players aren't here anymore because of Vince? T-Mac, Billups, Christie, etc. |
it might be too early to say "Vince who?"...but that was a great game...everyone stepped up and contributed.
more please 
Yeah, it was a great start of the post-Carter season... and this trade is actually looking better by a minute. Sure, Vince contributed a lot to the club in the early years, put Toronto and Canada on the map (Air Canada, yea!), promoted basketball in the city/country, etc, etc. But, as that one article mentioned, his stats were on the decline, and he was getting more bench time due to all the injuries. What good is the star player if he's injured all the time?!!
But now when the focus that was on Vince Carter all the time is gone, all these other players on the team get a chance to step up and play a collective team game, instead of the "give the ball to Vince and hope for the best" game. It is proving beneficial, so far. Sure, Nets were shorthanded as well, but hell, they had Jefferson and Kidd in the game! Isn't that team supposed to be structuring around those 2 star players?! Bah...
Now if only Zo wanted to play here as well, pfft... that'd be sick. Big man down-low, enough shooters on the team to make any team in the league dizzy, plenty of defensive-minded players on the roster. Whooaaaa! Bring it on!
And if they even think about trading the big man Marshall, I'll give up on them... that guy contributes to this team so much, it's not even funny. He can rebound, block shots, get offensive rebounds, run the floor with the ball (or without), pass the ball, and is deadly behind the 3 point line.
bout fucking time we got rid of Vince.
And now you have this allegation from 3 Supersonics players that Vince tipped them off on an upcoming play one game.
Nuts.
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| Originally posted by EvilTree And now you have this allegation from 3 Supersonics players that Vince tipped them off on an upcoming play one game. Nuts. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by EvilTree And now you have this allegation from 3 Supersonics players that Vince tipped them off on an upcoming play one game. Nuts. |
I liked the way Mitchell handled that...saying he can't "appeal" it or go back in time, so why talk about it.
ie. he basically was saying 'who cares, vince the distraction is gone, let's not keep his name in the media any longer than is necessary'.
oh, and the Jalen Rose haters...40 points over his last two games 
lol
^^^
must be cuz of Vince sitting out... 
and for all the Murray haters (including myself), he keeps draining those 3 pointers and getting inside either drawing fouls or getting easy points... damn, he's back!
^
You'd also have to notice that he's defensively weak at times. (Then again, Raps do need to tighten up defence)
It's not like the Raps can drain 3s constantly. This just a fluke spell.
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| Originally posted by EvilTree It's not like the Raps can drain 3s constantly. This just a fluke spell. |
Did Carter tip Sonics?
FRANK HUGHES; The News Tribune
Tacoma, WA
Two days before Toronto Raptors general manager Rob Babcock traded Vince Carter to the New Jersey Nets, he was informed that Carter may have tried to sabotage his team in a game a month ago.
Whether that information led to Carter being traded Friday for Alonzo Mourning, two other players and two draft picks is unclear. But after being part of trade talks for more than a month, Carter was dealt less than 48 hours after Babcock was interviewed for a story about Carter�s actions Nov. 19.
Three members of the Seattle SuperSonics say they believe Carter intentionally tipped off a play during the final minute of the Raptors� 101-94 loss to the Sonics in Toronto.
With 29 seconds remaining in that game and the Sonics leading 97-90, the Raptors called a timeout. After returning to the court, Carter lined up along the edge of the key. He was facing the Sonics� bench with his hands on his knees. According to a member of the Sonics, before the play began, Carter said directly to the Seattle bench, �It�s a flare. It�s a flare.� Two other members of the Sonics confirmed that Carter told the Sonics bench that the Raptors were running the flare play.
The Raptors, inbounding the ball above the Sonics bench, then ran a flare play for Carter.
In the play, which Sonics scouts had observed was a common go-to play for the Raptors, Carter worked his way up the key on the near side as Sonics guard Ray Allen followed. At the elbow on the near side, Raptors forward Matt Bonner set a screen on Allen for Carter, who then flared toward the opposite corner. The pass from Morris Petersen was too long for Carter to handle easily, and, unable to make a clean shot attempt, he passed the ball to Bonner, who hit a 22-foot shot from the top of the key.
According to one member of the Sonics, the bench reacted immediately to what Carter said, with Sonics players saying, �Did you hear that? Did you see that? That�s (expletive) up.�
Another member of the Sonics said he discussed the play with a coach after the game, and the coach said, �If you ever do that, I�ll run you out of the league.�
Allen, who was guarding Carter, said: �I didn�t hear it, but that�s what those other guys were saying (after the game), Reggie (Evans) and those other guys. But all I said was, �Why would he do that?� I don�t know why he would do that.�
When asked to detail the incident, Evans chose not to discuss specifics.
�I don�t want to get involved in that stuff, man,� Evans said. �That stuff is deep. I ain�t scared of Vince or nothing like that, but that is between him and his conscience. I ain�t saying it did happen or it didn�t happen. I�ll leave that for Ray. I�ll let Ray do all that type of talking, man.
�For real. I�ll let Ray open his mouth, he is the one ... who got into it with Kobe (Bryant), so I will just leave that alone. I don�t want to get into no beef with nobody.�
Carter, reached through Raptors spokesman Jim LaBumbard, responded, �I�m not going to comment on something as ridiculous as that.�
Babcock was reached on Wednesday evening and said: �I hadn�t heard that. I would hope that would not be the case, but I am not aware of that. If he did do that, I would be quite upset with that. But I don�t know anything about that. It is nothing I heard.
�That�s the type of thing that, if I was aware of it, we would deal with it internally, and we certainly would deal with it. But I am not aware of that.
�If something comes up to me like that, and it is solid, and it is obvious that it did happen, we would take care of it internally.�
Carter was traded to New Jersey two days later.
There are other possible explanations for Carter�s actions.
�I guess you could look at it both ways,� Allen said �Either, he was being cocky and saying, �I am still going to score,� or, �I don�t want you guys to let me make this shot.��
When asked if Carter was merely being cocky, one member of the Sonics said he did not believe so, pointing out that the Raptors were down seven points late in the game and that Carter had scored only 21 points.
Also, when asked if it were possible that Carter could have been trying to decoy the Sonics, the member of the Sonics said, �Sure, but they ended up running the play he told us, so I don�t see how it could have been a decoy.�
Asked why Carter would reveal the play, the Sonics member said, �We were all under the impression that he was sabotaging his team because he was getting booed by the fans and he wanted to get traded.�
The incident occurred one day after the Raptors and the Portland Trail Blazers were widely reported to be holding trade talks involving Carter.
It also came less than a week after Carter and Raptors coach Sam Mitchell got into a spat because Mitchell benched Carter for the entire fourth quarter of a game against Portland after Carter scored just four points in 22 minutes.
�Personally, for me it would be disrespecting myself,� Evans said of Carter�s actions. �Players should have more pride than to do things like that. You�re playing for the love of the game. These days, obviously, they are playing for money ... but you still have love for the game. Just balance it out.
�It�s crazy because that could be somebody else out there, who wants to win, who wants to make a difference for a coach, somebody like a Damien Wilkins or a Mateen Cleaves who would love to be in that situation to get them over that hump.
�Stuff like this just makes the league look bad.� Frank Hughes:
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| Originally posted by Crazy Serb Sure they can... they've got enough "qualified" 3-point shooters on the team. Much more than many other teams in the league... |
The only logic I really see behind dealing Marshall now is that he's a free agent after this season...if he has no intention of re-signing, or if the Raps don't intend to bring him back...fine, deal him.
well...just settling in with a j and some good eats...let's see what the Williams boys can do tonight against Houston. I'd feel a lot better if Alonzo was up there beside Bosh to help deal with Yao though. Loren has his work cut out for him tonight, lol.
post-game (almost) edit:
well...Yao owned Toronto and demonstrated what happens to a team that doesn't have a legitimate centre (please come play for us Alonzo...please!). highlights...McGrady whirlaround pass in the 4th...Bonner stuffing Yao mid-3rd, LOL. Eric Williams was solid! Good offense...but no defense against Yao...which means overcommitting to him and Tracy goes wild...damn, McGrady was hitting crazy shots all night regardless.
And the Raps just couldn't put a stop on McGrady/Yao show.
Inconsistent on 3s in first half. Couldn't get stops when needed big time.
Oh well.
I liked how Eric Williams played. Defensively decent and has good post moves. After a few games with the team, I think he'll do well.
Bonner's developing a decent 3 too...
I managed to catch only the last 2 minutes of the game, but damn... 2-14 on the road?!!! That's gotta hurt.
Good first half, so so second half. 3rd quarter weakness again. (And failing to stop Boozer)
Alston moved the ball well, but his shooting really lets him down.
Rose played like he had something to prove on first half, but slowed down on second half. (He didn't start)
I like Eric Williams. He's adjusted so well putting up decent stats.
Bosh also had a good game.
Raps just need to tighten up defensively, and they'll win all those close games. Having someone who can just take over the game doesn't hurt either.
Anyone watching the Phoenix Suns vs Grizzlies game on TSN (I think) right now... phew, this team is sick!
yeah but look how bad they struggle as soon as nash leaves the floor.
Phx is a sick team with nash tho. Amazing what a pure PG can do.
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