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quote:

Originally posted by aloep The original mix of "Gamemaster" was classified by many as Progressive Trance when it came out 8 years ago. However, nowadays it does sound closer to "Epic", but I certainly wouldn't call it "anthem". That term I reserve for the "hands in the air" Dutch sound of the late 90's like System F - Out Of The Blue and practically anything by Ferry Corsten of that period.

I disagree. Gamemaster has little in common, with, say Calling Your Name (Original Mix) or the work of Evolution from the same period. It has a clear anthem line (progressive seldom does), and very little modulation or gradual layering as per usual for progressive trance. It's very overt in sound. Further, the lead forms an overall melody that extends for 32 bars, which is trademark epic construction. Anthems rarely exceeded 16, and were most often 8 bars. If anything, Gamemaster is epic in anthem clothing.

I would classify Out Of The Blue as Epic; clear melody of 32 bars.

quote:

Originally posted by Cobalt I would classify Out Of The Blue as Epic; clear melody of 32 bars.

hm i'm sure i count 16?

Yes its 16

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Originally posted by Cobalt Words has progressive influences, but is closer to anthem.

D'fuck? How the hell Words is anthem is beyond me. But then, I've only heard the version on the album. How does the "Words for Love" mix differ?

And I disagree about Gamemaster. It isn't constructed in the same way as most anthem trance. There's only a single true breakdown and there's a long section in the middle that doesn't fit in with your average anthem track. There are also so many layers swirling round the lead riff doesn't sound like the centre of the track like it does on anthem tracks.

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Originally posted by Soonmeister Carnt Deejay - If i Were You If I were yooooooooou... Id get another job!!!! absolute Bollocks

Couldn't agree more.

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Originally posted by isoterra hm i'm sure i count 16?

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Originally posted by JakeC Yes its 16

Out Of The Blue sample

I count 32 beats. (If beats and bars are not the same thing, I apologize, I've always used them interchangeably. Please correct my terms if that is the case, but my point stands.)

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J D'fuck? How the hell Words is anthem is beyond me. But then, I've only heard the version on the album. How does the "Words for Love" mix differ? And I disagree about Gamemaster. It isn't constructed in the same way as most anthem trance. There's only a single true breakdown and there's a long section in the middle that doesn't fit in with your average anthem track. There are also so many layers swirling round the lead riff doesn't sound like the centre of the track like it does on anthem tracks.

Apologies, I was referring explicitly to Words for Love, which elevates the melodic layer of the album version into an anthem line:

Words (For Love) sample

The album version is progressive trance, though like I said, Words (For Love) also has progressive influences.

Gamemaster is anthem trance with epic trappings. Just because the (32 bar) lead wobbles around in pseudo-progressive style doesn't mean the track is progressive trance. That it even has a lead usually excludes a track from being progressive. Compare the samples:

Apparition - Chipinque sample (Progressive Trance)

Lost Tribe - Gamemaster sample (Anthem/Epic Trance)

Actually, given some reconsideration on my part, Gamemaster is more Epic than Anthem, though it incorporates parts of both, and isn't progressive.

Hahaha, genre terms are funny when people mean different things, coz I view epic and anthem to be one and the same.

What is the defining characteristics that set them apart to you?

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Originally posted by kr00t0n Hahaha, genre terms are funny when people mean different things, coz I view epic and anthem to be one and the same. What is the defining characteristics that set them apart to you?

Both Anthem and Epic contain lead melodies, but primarily differ in length of that melody.

Epic melodies are almost always 32 beats long, and emotionally evokative. You can count melody length by the bassline. Occasionally epic melodies will exceed 32 beats, but I consider most 64+ melodic trance to be of a Dutch subgenre, since they usually come with wacky melodic interludes that defy imagination (Ligaya, for example, whose melody runs an insane 104 beats or something close).

Anthems are more variable in their length, running from about 4 beats (Strange World), to 8 (Enervate), to 16 (Cream), and even a rare 32 (Supernova, though 32-bar Anthem might as well be considered Epic). They usually focus less on emotion and more on raw fanfare.

quote:

Originally posted by Cobalt Both Anthem and Epic contain lead melodies, but primarily differ in length of that melody. Epic melodies are almost always 32 beats long, and emotionally evokative. You can count melody length by the bassline. Occasionally epic melodies will exceed 32 beats, but I consider most 64+ melodic trance to be of a Dutch subgenre, since they usually come with wacky melodic interludes that defy imagination (Ligaya, for example, whose melody runs an insane 104 beats or something close). Anthems are more variable in their length, running from about 4 beats (Strange World), to 8 (Enervate), to 16 (Cream), and even a rare 32 (Supernova, though 32-bar Anthem might as well be considered Epic). They usually focus less on emotion and more on raw fanfare.

So anthem would be more dancey as its got more energy?

By the way, I understand that genre labels can differ between people, but at some point you have to draw definitions if you want the names to mean anything. Some of the general rules I've arrived at are remarkably accurate at matching what people usually label a production. I find there are very few epic trance productions, for example, with fewer than 32-beat melodies.

quote:

Originally posted by kr00t0n So anthem would be more dancey as its got more energy?

Well, anthem trance tends to be more energetic and dancey, on average -- that's often the effect of having a shorter melodic loop (compare Enervate with Seven Cities). But not always. Words (For Love) isn't a super-energetic track, but it's Anthem. Likewise, there are epic tracks that are souped up as really soaring numbers rather than wistful relaxed ones, but aren't anthem.

quote:

Originally posted by Aiwendil Delerium - Silence (DJ Tiesto's ISOS Remix) DJ Tiesto - Suburban Train Rank 1 - Airwave Gouryella - Gouryella Veracocha - Carte Blanche Armin - Communication Agnelli & Nelson - El Nino (Matt Darey Remix) Transa - Enervate I'm not joking.

Carte Blanche cheese , your a fuckin idiot.

^^ Thank you, you are entertaining. In fact it seems I laugh uproariously at this and similar sentiments. Good times.


All progressive trance has a lead, and the lead is repetitive, but the bass chord changes notes every however bars.

Uhh..Chipinique is House, the British kind. Or "progressive" House or whatever the fuck. That shit Digweed plays. Not trance though girlfriend. Words be anthem trance I suppose...err..or maybe progressive...that's a tricky one. I guess part of Gamemaster is progressive and part isn't. You didn't even sample the progressive part, with the lead sample from Dreams.



Yeah, what's fucked up is that people think "Carte Blanche" et al aren't cheese. :/

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Originally posted by XRVOL Carte Blanche cheese , your a fuckin idiot.

I second that.


Armin van buuren - Communication, CHEESY?????!!! wtf is happeing to the world?!!23

quote:

Originally posted by Aiwendil All progressive trance has a lead, and the lead is repetitive, but the bass chord changes notes every however bars. Uhh..Chipinique is House, the British kind. Or "progressive" House or whatever the fuck. That shit Digweed plays. Not trance though girlfriend.

Lay off the Ishkur, it's addictive in high doses.

quote:

Originally posted by Cobalt I count 32 beats. (If beats and bars are not the same thing, I apologize, I've always used them interchangeably. Please correct my terms if that is the case, but my point stands.)

1 bar = 4 beats

and the chord sequence is only 32 beats true, but the melody variates on every other repetition of it, which is why i said 16 (64 beats)

quote:

Originally posted by Cobalt Lay off the Ishkur, it's addictive in high doses.

LOL, aint it the truth

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