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-- Jihad on Denmark - freedom of expression rears its ugly head once again...
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Today one croatian magazine published those pictures too. I'm glad to say that we too took part in protecting the freedom of the press, something that was really difficult to comprehend some 10 years ago.

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Originally posted by Groundhog Boy It's not just Iran. IMO, too many Muslims want a religious war. That's what Jihad is. They're just not smart enough to realize that they'll lose if they go up against Christians, Jews, and secularists all at once. Most Europeans were against what the US was doing in the Middle East, so explain to me the logic of pissing them off so that they now side with the the Americans because they're being attacked. Nothing like forcing people to pick sides for the newest version of the Crusades. They commit all these atrocities in the name of Allah and no Muslim leaders condemn the actions, so why are they so upset when cartoonists depict him as a terrorist with a bomb? It's the image they're spreading to the world and if they don't like that image, stop conforming to it by destroying things.

lol..this is really funny. First of all you really don't know what is Jihad. I'm muslim btw. Jihad is a very old idea, people in europe and america who have benefits over Muslim countries uses the idea Jihad to just try to blacken muslims. You said that there are lots of muslims who want a religious war. Thats compeletly wrong. All that bombings and stuff is not about religion or muslims. You must understand that no muslim can do such a thing. You said they commit all these atrocities in the name of Allah and this is the funniest part. They don't know nothing about Allah or being a Muslim. They are just couple of ignorant people.

you must understand that all thse things are not about being a Muslim.
And let's talk about that cartoons. Hmm.. Let's see.. How can you make all Muslims responsible for these atrocities? How can you draw Mohammed the Prophet in such idea? What if we draw Jesus "as a symbol of US" in a cartoon? That is absolutely the same thing. They are just trying to find reasons to attack Muslims.They want to conquer our land to use all our products. But one thing they don't know that we are very powerful. If they keep doing this... well..

Well 14 pages and I'm not reading through them so appologies if any of this has been said before (which I'm sure it will have!)

It seems that certain sections of the PC brigade (esp here in the UK where god (sorry, God (sorry, G-d (sorry G-d praise be unto him))) forbid anyone dares criticise anything to do with Islam (because they see it as criticism of a race, not a religion) It's double standards. No one cares when people criticise Christianity (eg there was a big uproar that our education secretary was a member of that loony Opus Dei) but when it's against Islam everyone's up in arms about it.

Now I know the cartoon was offensive but it's freedom of speach. Nobody likes it when they are on the receiving end but religious people should accept that if they wanna have stupid beliefs (yes they are stupid) then they are gonna get criticism. I dont agree with the artists inference that all Muslims who follow Muhammed are Islamists but hey, there are ways to disprove that and rioting is not the way to prove Muslims are peaceful!

I just wonder if all those ****s protesting down in London and elsewhere rioted when their own press publish cartoons portraying all Israelis or all Jews as animals/Nazis/etc?

Doubt it

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Originally posted by djdarren you must understand that all thse things are not about being a Muslim. And let's talk about that cartoons. Hmm.. Let's see.. How can you make all Muslims responsible for these atrocities? How can you draw Mohammed the Prophet in such idea? What if we draw Jesus "as a symbol of US" in a cartoon? That is absolutely the same thing. They are just trying to find reasons to attack Muslims.They want to conquer our land to use all our products. But one thing they don't know that we are very powerful. If they keep doing this... well..

We've had protests all over our country, and you know 'ordinary' muslims turned out & a lot of them had provocative signs, gloryfying terror etc. Many people draw pictures of jesus, and guess what, we don't care, sure some people do, but I find many humourous. Islam in general is stuck in an age of time way in the past, and that's where the clashes come, issues that other religions take as being normal, never have with islam, and it needs to modernise itself to adapt to these issues, else I see a very long & bloody war

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Originally posted by George Smiley I just wonder if all those ****s protesting down in London and elsewhere rioted when their own press publish cartoons portraying all Israelis or all Jews as animals/Nazis/etc? Doubt it

perfectly put. What really pisses me off, is people are calling for boycotts of danish products, of danish people, ordinary danish people have had nothing to do with this, yet their whole country are having problems for something from months ago, because other countries (none of whom have been attacked - france for example) published these & brought everything back up.

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Originally posted by djdarren How can you draw Mohammed the Prophet in such idea?

Pen and paper, pretty simple concept really

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What if we draw Jesus "as a symbol of US" in a cartoon? That is absolutely the same thing.

It is, isn't it? And you'd probly get some whackos again complaining (as you do in some Christian countries) But those cartoons you describe happen and dont cause this kind of commotion!

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They are just trying to find reasons to attack Muslims.They want to conquer our land to use all our products. But one thing they don't know that we are very powerful. If they keep doing this... well..

Who is "they" exactly? Every Danish person?!?! Every America?! Every Christian? Every Westerner? For someone who is complaining that a people (Muslims) are getting tarred with the same brush as a few you do a good job making yourself look like a plonker! However, I assume you mean the American elite? (Plus their allied elites in the world) Well, yes, they want you're resources, completely true.

When you talk of your threats against the West you use "we" to describe ALL Muslims who you earlier said we're not part of that ignorant minority who you even said were not Muslims!! So these Islamists who threaten the West are not Muslims but ignorant people (I agree completely btw) but then you make the same threat against the West as they do and infere that all Muslims would be behind this? Hmmmmm

I think you need to stick to your distinctions between Muslims and Islamists (as you call on others to do) I dont think all Muslims are like how that cartoon suggested - nothing of the sort! Its a small minority, a new ideology that has become popular because the previous ideologies failed to help that region/people, thats all.

And you dont help your arguments by saying shit like 'if they carry on like that (either American power in the region or simply, as the thread is about, petty insults against the religion) then...' suggesting the Muslims population will rise up against them then you further dont help your argument!!!

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Originally posted by Ian perfectly put. What really pisses me off, is people are calling for boycotts of danish products, of danish people, ordinary danish people have had nothing to do with this, yet their whole country are having problems for something from months ago, because other countries (none of whom have been attacked - france for example) published these & brought everything back up.

Well Denmark's whole export industry consists of bacon so I don't think they have much to worry about! Unless Iranians are hooked on Lego?!

and you are wrong..in your religion it is not a sin to draw a picture(normal) of Jesus, you have lots figures in your churches. But in Islam it is forbidden to draw anything about Mohammed. And these cartoonist draw him, and not normally but with bombs and weapons. So it is normal that you've had protests all over your country.
and also you dont know anything about muslims if you say they are not modern. Did you ever come tu Istanbul? Or did you ever go to Dubia? or didyou ever go to Malaysia? I don't think so. We are goddam modern but you dont know anything bout us. You just see Iraq in televisions and you think that we are not modern.

by the way you must watch the new film called "Valley of the Wolves Iraq"..

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Originally posted by djdarren and you are wrong..in your religion it is not a sin to draw a picture(normal) of Jesus, you have lots figures in your churches. But in Islam it is forbidden to draw anything about Mohammed. And these cartoonist draw him, and not normally but with bombs and weapons. So it is normal that you've had protests all over your country. and also you dont know anything about muslims if you say they are not modern. Did you ever come tu Istanbul? Or did you ever go to Dubia? or didyou ever go to Malaysia? I don't think so. We are goddam modern but you dont know anything bout us. You just see Iraq in televisions and you think that we are not modern.

I've seen turkey, on tv. I've seen how women are repressed, and how english football fans have been stabbed to death. I've seen the racist chanting atfootball games against black players. That's not very modern at all imo.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well Denmark's whole export industry consists of bacon so I don't think they have much to worry about! Unless Iranians are hooked on Lego?!

my diet is 50% danish meats & 30% echo of silence I also once ate a lego man so I think I have to support them

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Originally posted by djdarren and you are wrong..in your religion it is not a sin to draw a picture(normal) of Jesus, you have lots figures in your churches. But in Islam it is forbidden to draw anything about Mohammed. And these cartoonist draw him, and not normally but with bombs and weapons. So it is normal that you've had protests all over your country. and also you dont know anything about muslims if you say they are not modern. Did you ever come tu Istanbul? Or did you ever go to Dubia? or didyou ever go to Malaysia? I don't think so. We are goddam modern but you dont know anything bout us. You just see Iraq in televisions and you think that we are not modern.

My religion?! What religion would that be exactly?!

And I know plenty about Muslims thank you (altho that comment was not directed towards me I know) Muslims in the UK are for the main part 'modern' which simply means not-as-religious. Its a bit of a daft comment when people say a religion (they usually mean Christianity) is 'modern' because what they actually mean is people have given up their religious beliefs (they are not strict or whatever) so they are not modern, they are in fact not religious!

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Originally posted by djdarren lol..this is really funny.

The only thing that's funny here, is you making a fool out of yourself by posting incoherent ramblings in the PDD without reading the thread or (seemingly) making any effort whatsoever to check your facts first.

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Originally posted by djdarren And let's talk about that cartoons. Hmm.. Let's see.. How can you make all Muslims responsible for these atrocities? How can you draw Mohammed the Prophet in such idea? What if we draw Jesus "as a symbol of US" in a cartoon? That is absolutely the same thing.

Refering to my earlier comment about you having failed to check into the matters before posting, let me point your attention to the following snippet from Wikipedia:

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Jesus and other religious figures are often portrayed in Denmark in ways that many other societies would consider illegal blasphemy. In 1984 the artist Jens J�rgen Thorsen was commissioned by a local art club to paint the wall of a railway station. The work displayed a naked Jesus with an erect penis. In 1992 Thorsen directed the film Jesus vender tilbage which showed Jesus as sexually active and involved with a terrorist group. While Thorsen�s work provoked much public debate, he was not charged with any legal offence.

Notice the word "debate" rather than "riots". And, no, we do not have a law that outlaws Holocaust denial neither. Furthermore, the cartoons did not equate all muslims with terrorists - if you'd seen them you would know.

Btw. I liked how you managed to write this:

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Originally posted by djdarren You said that there are lots of muslims who want a religious war. Thats compeletly wrong. All that bombings and stuff is not about religion or muslims. You must understand that no muslim can do such a thing.

and then this:

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Originally posted by djdarren But one thing they don't know that we are very powerful. If they keep doing this... well..

Which is it? As you're obviously speaking on behalf of all Muslims, you might as well tell us if we should fear Muslims or not?

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Originally posted by Ian their whole country are having problems for something from months ago, because other countries (none of whom have been attacked - france for example) published these & brought everything back up.

Actually the boycott started before the foreign papers picked up on the story. The real reason for the sudden eruption of lunacy is unknown. Some think it was a divertion stunt to lead Arabs' attention away from a tragedy connected to some religious event, others that it's orchestrated by a trans-border alliance of Islamists, spearheaded by Iran.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Today one croatian magazine published those pictures too. I'm glad to say that we too took part in protecting the freedom of the press, something that was really difficult to comprehend some 10 years ago.

A paper in Australia and a larger US paper has also just printed some cartoons. A list of freedom of speech fighting papers can be found at wikipedia.

Yesterday, in an interview with Jyllands-posten, the US deputy foreign secretary came out with a new US stance on the matter. He pledged to support Denmark in this matter unconditionally. The US embassador to Denmark furthermore added that the previous statements by the US foreign secretary's spokesman were in error, and did not reflect the policies of the US government. Supposedly the same kinds of new pipings was given by Blair.
Chirac also pledged support to freedom of speech, but this was not as surprising as he was just backing up what had previously been said by his interior minister.
Anyway, I haven't been able to find any confirmations of these new signals from the UK and US, and since an informal interview in a Danish paper is rather non-comitting, I remain a skeptic.
EDIT: And here the confirmation seems to be:
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20060207&fname=danielfried&sid=2
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20060207&fname=danielfried&sid=1
"Funny" that an Indian news source would be the first to report on this.

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Originally posted by Ian I've seen turkey, on tv. I've seen how women are repressed, and how english football fans have been stabbed to death. I've seen the racist chanting atfootball games against black players. That's not very modern at all imo.

To be fair I'd say those were cultural problems not religious problems (all of which happen in a great deal of European countries)

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Originally posted by Ian I've seen turkey, on tv. I've seen how women are repressed, and how english football fans have been stabbed to death. I've seen the racist chanting atfootball games against black players. That's not very modern at all imo.

lol so you are so modern that nobody is getting killed in your country? lol.. and english footbal fans was so modern that they put our national flag into their boxers and walk like that. english people was so modern that they were banned from europen competitions once. english people were so modern that their goddamn police kill an unarmed and innocent man in metro station. americans are so mdoern that they keep killing innocent people in Iraq.
Ok then it is modern right?

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Originally posted by George Smiley My religion?! What religion would that be exactly?! And I know plenty about Muslims thank you (altho that comment was not directed towards me I know) Muslims in the UK are for the main part 'modern' which simply means not-as-religious. Its a bit of a daft comment when people say a religion (they usually mean Christianity) is 'modern' because what they actually mean is people have given up their religious beliefs (they are not strict or whatever) so they are not modern, they are in fact not religious!

so what is this mean? you can not be modern if you are religious?

Just answer this question:

Why are publishing of jewish cartoons with greedy jews seen as a provocation and threat against a ethnic group but publishing pictures which shows all muslims as terrorists seen as expressing of freedom of speech?

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Originally posted by RebeL9 Just answer this question: Why are publishing of jewish cartoons with greedy jews seen as a provocation and threat against a ethnic group but publishing pictures which shows all muslims as terrorists seen as expressing of freedom of speech?

Oh boy. Well, the answer was an entire five posts above you - no wonder you couldn't see it.
And stop dragging the Jews into this - they're quite capable of doing that themselves.

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Originally posted by RebeL9 Just answer this question: Why are publishing of jewish cartoons with greedy jews seen as a provocation and threat against a ethnic group but publishing pictures which shows all muslims as terrorists seen as expressing of freedom of speech?

I honestly don't know mate, but I think there needs to be more understanding & friendship between the 2 religions. I believe you're muslim & I was born into christianity, yet we share common interests like the music, which to me unites people who are different and never are you or I looked down upon beacause of what religions we were born into. There is a need for an international cease fire imo but I don't see it happening.

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Originally posted by djdarren lol so you are so modern that nobody is getting killed in your country? lol.. and english footbal fans was so modern that they put our national flag into their boxers and walk like that. english people was so modern that they were banned from europen competitions once. english people were so modern that their goddamn police kill an unarmed and innocent man in metro station. americans are so mdoern that they keep killing innocent people in Iraq. Ok then it is modern right?

ok. to answer this in parts.

English fans are way better behaved nowadays, the bad behaviour was in a previous generation & Our country is doing everything we can to stop these people from going abroad to cause problems. However anywhere in eastern europe, our black players recieve awful monkey noises. This is the 21st century and that is out of order.

The Iraq situation is unfortunate. There will always be casualties in conflict, and the UK went in hoping to liberate the Iraqi people, let's not forget saddam was butchering his own people, and some of the opposite factiosn of muslims were treated so badly by him all the time. Every person deserves the chance to be free, and the UK truly wants that, if America has ulterior issues, that's upto them, but if you ask anyone in the UK if they want Iraqi's killed they'd say no, we just want to give those people a chance of a life, the chance to prosper.

Take for example the earthquake in pakistan, the UK & America & scandinavian countries gave money first, they always do, we believe in compassion regardless of race, religion, anything. Sadly there are people manipulating on all sides, which causes these problems. The danish person who published this was wrong, should've apologised, that should've been the end of it. Now god knows what is going to happen.

There's another cartoon circulating around: it shows a group of suicide bombers trying to enter heaven and the prophet saying: "There are no more virgins left." - now that's LOL!

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many critics charge that anti-Semitic cartoons are rampant in the Muslim world. In addition, Westerners see horrifying images of people like kidnapped reporter Jill Carroll pleading for her life or the death of Nicholas Berg, a young contractor who was beheaded by his captors in Iraq.

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A European Muslim group has already published on its Web site a cartoon of Adolf Hitler in bed with Anne Frank. "If it is the time to break taboos and cross all the red lines," it explains, "we certainly do not want to fall behind."

Link

Interesting how muslims never miss an opportunity to pull Jews into conflict, even when Jews are not responsible.

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Originally posted by trancaholic Which is it? As you're obviously speaking on behalf of all Muslims, you might as well tell us if we should fear Muslims or not?

Welcome to Muslim double-talk

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A paper in Australia and a larger US paper has also just printed some cartoons. A list of freedom of speech fighting papers can be found at wikipedia.

Oh good! I was wondering when a US paper was going to join in on the fun - since there are hundreds of US papers...

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Yesterday, in an interview with Jyllands-posten, the US deputy foreign secretary came out with a new US stance on the matter. He pledged to support Denmark in this matter unconditionally. The US embassador to Denmark furthermore added that the previous statements by the US foreign secretary's spokesman were in error, and did not reflect the policies of the US government. Supposedly the same kinds of new pipings was given by Blair.

This makes sense. I think the general sense is that the US was misinformed over this whole incident and never grasped it (till now I guess) completely. Freedom of press is so ingrained in US society that it is no big deal to draw Mohammad here, Jesus raping a girl, or a Jew thirsting over world domination.

Therefore when its not such a big deal, drawing a cartoon of Mohammaed as a terrorist like drawing a Jew thirsting over the world, Americans saw as trying to intice hatered in racism.

Now, however, as the administration finally grasped the reality, in which it is a big deal to draw Mohammed, and this came from a liberal paper, not some racial rag, and was intended as a pure and obvious (unlike the European Arab Leagues attempt to just use this incident to poke more fun at the Jews) form of exercising free speech, I don't think the USA can take a different line.

Afterall, the editor did not tell his cartoonist what to draw, this is what they drew! Censoring that is well, censoring it. There are some pretty tame (and pointless) cartoons in there... one only could be construed as offensive, but when you listen to what its author intended it to be (Islamist hijacking mohammaed as their spokesperson for terror) its a very valid critique.

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Originally posted by djdarren lol..this is really funny. First of all you really don't know what is Jihad. I'm muslim btw. Jihad is a very old idea, people in europe and america who have benefits over Muslim countries uses the idea Jihad to just try to blacken muslims. You said that there are lots of muslims who want a religious war. Thats compeletly wrong. All that bombings and stuff is not about religion or muslims. You must understand that no muslim can do such a thing. You said they commit all these atrocities in the name of Allah and this is the funniest part. They don't know nothing about Allah or being a Muslim. They are just couple of ignorant people. you must understand that all thse things are not about being a Muslim. And let's talk about that cartoons. Hmm.. Let's see.. How can you make all Muslims responsible for these atrocities? How can you draw Mohammed the Prophet in such idea? What if we draw Jesus "as a symbol of US" in a cartoon? That is absolutely the same thing. They are just trying to find reasons to attack Muslims.They want to conquer our land to use all our products. But one thing they don't know that we are very powerful. If they keep doing this... well..

Do you really mean to tell me that these Muslim fundamentalists don't commit terrrorist acts in the name of Allah? Because if you are, you're either living in a cave or everything that is written worldwide about terrorism is completely wrong.

As for your Jihad comments and how my interpretation of it was incorrect, please give me a different definition than this one

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Jihad (Arabic: جهاد jihād) is an Islamic term, from the Arabic root jhd ("to exert utmost effort, to strive, struggle"), which connotes a wide range of meanings: anything from an inward spiritual struggle to attain perfect faith to a political or militant struggle to defend or further Islam. Jihad is repeatedly used in the context of Holy War by Islamic militants and some religious leaders throughout the Middle East [1]. Some Muslims consider jihad to be the most misunderstood aspect of their religion by non-Muslims [2]. The Islamic religious legitimacy of the goals or methods of various Islamist movements who adopt the terminology of jihad is often brought into question, usually by moderate and liberal Muslims. In much of the English speaking world, jihad is associated with the phrase "holy war"; however, the concept of jihad encompasses more than just warfare, and a more accurate translation probably would be "holy struggle", "righteous struggle" or "holy endeavour". The denotation is of a challenging or difficult, (frequently) opposed effort, made either in accomplishment or resistance. A person who engages in any form of jihad is called a "mujahid", meaning "striver" or "struggler". This term is most often used to mean a person who engages in fighting, but, for example a Muslim struggling to memorize the Qur'an is called a mujahid. The neologism jihadist is sometimes used to describe militant Islamic groups. Muslims generally classify jihad into two forms,jihad al-akbar, the greater jihad, is said to be the struggle against one's soul (nafs), while jihad al-asgar, the lesser jihad, is external and is in reference to physical effort and/or fighting . Muslim scholars explained there are five kinds of jihad fi sabilillah (struggle in the cause of God).

- Source

Now I have no problem with a lot of the concepts in here. Internal stuggle with your soul is a great thing. External struggle and imposing your beliefs on others through whatever means is not. If Muslim radicals didn't use these terms constantly to refer to their actions, maybe it wouldn't get misinterpretted by the West.

You said that these actions aren't about religion or Muslims? Please explain to me what they are about then, because the only thing that I see and hear from those who take responsibility relates to their religious beliefs. You can say that a lot of it is political, but that gets difficult to determine when religion and politics are so inter-twined in a good part of the Middle East.

OK, the the Danes wanted their products? Are you joking? They stayed out of this whole mess the US and some other Europeans started in Iraq. So they drew some cartoons depicting Mohammed and you're not allowed to draw him according to your religion. Why should those who don't follow your religion conform to it's principles? The whole point of this issue is the self-censorship that's already going on in Europe and showing how far everyone's already gone to appease Muslims by conforming so much to their beliefs that they're giving up their own ideals (free speech).

Lastly, the thing that really pisses me off about this whole thing is how the Muslim radicals who started this whole mess by spreading these cartoons throughout the Muslim community LIED to the Muslims and included cartoons that weren't published to make the Europeans seem even more demonic. The cartoons that they created, with the praying Muslim being raped by a dog, Mohammed with a pig snout, and Muhammed as a pedophile demon, were offensive. Muslims have a lot more right to complain about them, and if they were real, I'd understand the reaction a bit more. Still, burning down embassies?

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Originally posted by Yoepus Freedom of press is so ingrained in US society that it is no big deal to draw Mohammad here, Jesus raping a girl, or a Jew thirsting over world domination.

I think you're wrong about this one.

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Islam (Arabic: الإسلام; al-islām (listen (help�info)), "the submission to the will of God") is a monotheistic faith, one of the Abrahamic religions, the world's second-largest religion, and the fastest growing religion in the world. A lot muslims (like islamists) and non-muslims hold that islam is not only a religion, but also a political system that should govern the legal, economic and social imperatives of the state.

Wiki

Now, Islam as a political entity paints a pretty picture, based on its recent actions, eh? Democracy, you say? My a$$. These people couldn't tell it, even if democracy sat on their face. Shame on Bush for wasting crap load of money on a war fought in a wrong country. Iraq should have been left alone, Iran should have been targeted first. I bet Saddam would have even helped along.

but nice of Bushie to make his daddy proud. Anyway, coming back to my point - the craziness has got to stop. If these people do not wish to solidify the image of Islam as religion of hate, murder, extremism - they need to chill the f0ck out.

Parting shot: Islam is relatively the youngest religion - it's only about 1400 years old. Remember what was going on with Christianity at sweet 1400? That's right - the inquisition, dark ages, etc. So, I figure in about 600 or so years, Islam should catch on with today's standards and realize that loping people's heads of or blowing up buildings and people is just a bad PR and tends to upset few folks here and there. In about 200 years we may hopefully begin to witness the age of Islamic Renaissance. Worst case scanario prognosis - 600 or so years is not that long to wait for a good thing, eh?

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Originally posted by emc^2 There's another cartoon circulating around: it shows a group of suicide bombers trying to enter heaven and the prophet saying: "There are no more virgins left." - now that's LOL! quote: A European Muslim group has already published on its Web site a cartoon of Adolf Hitler in bed with Anne Frank. "If it is the time to break taboos and cross all the red lines," it explains, "we certainly do not want to fall behind." Link Interesting how muslims never miss an opportunity to pull Jews into conflict, even when Jews are not responsible.

But notice how the Jews all over the world are offended, but they aren't burning embassies, rioting, and boycotting entire countries.

Also, Anne Frank is a symbol of something harmful that was wrong to them, Mohammed with a bomb-like turban is a symbol of what significant segment of the Muslim population (significant = not all, but a visible, powerful, vocal segment) is doing to the rest of the world.

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