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-- rememberance day
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quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard I don't follow your logic. How exactly is there no nobility in defending your countrymen, your family, from a hostile force?

Because 'nobility' is a myth sold to the lower class in order to coax them into doing whatever you want them to do in the name of righteousness. If you're talking about the mere prospect of self-defense as a reaction, the justification is in survival, not in pride in one's nation.

Fuck. I have my star on, too. And no I'm not kidding.

quote:

Originally posted by elFreak or saving a population from extermination for no other reason than religion?

now now Jay, let's not delude ourselves into thinking any of the Allies were all that concerned about saving the Jews (or slavs, or the mentally handicapped, or gypsies, or artists other then realists, or any group targeted in the holocaust that I may have forgotten). The Allies knew of the concentration and later extermination camps in 1942... they had the ability to bomb them or the apparatus supporting them but chose not to because they didn't want to have to land their long range bombers in the Soviet Union (because Stalin would have seized them). There were many reasons the Allies fought the war but stopping the holocaust was pretty low on the priority list.


Just being real.

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Originally posted by Frenchie I don't think you have the right to sit here and say oh well why should I respect this, remember this, who were these people? I don't know them blablabla they didn't do anything for me. That's such bull. Why are you getting so upset? You can leave now.

I think you're assuming ignorance on my part merely to compensate for your own.

I'm not ignorant. I never said you were ignorant. I said you were wrong.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Because 'nobility' is a myth sold to the lower class in order to coax them into doing whatever you want them to do in the name of righteousness. If you're talking about the mere prospect of self-defense as a reaction, the justification is in survival, not in pride in one's nation.

What about pride in ones self for having safeguarded those they love or otherwise feel a duty to defend. Nobility is not found in the results of an action but in the intention.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard now now Jay, let's not delude ourselves into thinking any of the Allies were all that concerned about saving the Jews (or slavs, or the mentally handicapped, or gypsies, or artists other then realists, or any group targeted in the holocaust that I may have forgotten). The Allies knew of the concentration and later extermination camps in 1942... they had the ability to bomb them or the apparatus supporting them but chose not to because they didn't want to have to land their long range bombers in the Soviet Union (because Stalin would have seized them). There were many reasons the Allies fought the war but stopping the holocaust was pretty low on the priority list. Just being real.

i agree craig, but the fact is they saved them anyways through their action which is noble cause regardless of priority imo.

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Originally posted by elFreak i agree craig, but the fact is they saved them anyways through their action which is noble cause regardless of priority imo.

I have to disagree as nobility is determined by intention not result. There was a great deal of nobility in fighting the second great war... on both sides; however, ending the holocaust was a happy consequence of winning the war as opposed to a noble undertaking. Admirable, yes; noble, no.

i'll agree, and i hate jews!

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Originally posted by Frenchie who were these people?

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Originally posted by Frenchie I'm not ignorant. I never said you were ignorant. I said you were wrong.

That's seems pretty accusatory of ignorance to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Nobility is not found in the results of an action but in the intention.

There is nothing exacted without good intention. Whether it is for a greater good or the good of oneself, if the intention is "good", it is noble, right?

I suspect that it is your definition of what is "good" that shall be your shortcoming in this.

there are no shortcomings in regards to respect only disregard.

Wow. This thread turned into something worse than Tiesto trainwreck.

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Originally posted by Theresa It's a big deal in Canada. EVERYONE wears poppies, schools have assemblies, there is the 2 minute silence at 11 EVERYWHERE (schools, workplaces etc.) This morning I was woken up by a canon going off, and I looked out my window, there was a huge congregation of people at the commemorating statue across the street from me (even though it was pouring out). Meh, I have never personally taken it as a big deal, but everyone around me does, so I show my respect.

LOL. I was at that ceremony just around your house. That cannon was pretty darn loud.

quote:

Originally posted by fayraree pardon my ignorance, but did Canada have mandatory service in WWI or II? I believe the US did, a la "draft dodgers" but wasn't sure about Canada. In view that people were forced to serve, and might have died, I definitely feel sorry for them and their families and believe it's totally appropriate to remember them. But if you volunteered and got killed, that's no more important than a cop dying on the street trying to thwart a robbery. and we don't have a special day to remember those cops, so I don't really care, especially for those dying in Iraq or Afghanistan. however, for the involuntary military men, I salute you.

There was conscription after 1917 when volunteers started to dry up.
There was also limited conscription during WW2, but most of these conscripts served as homeland defence force and not many went to fight in Europe, and only near the end of the war.

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Originally posted by fayraree my whole point is that people who joined for that reason should EXPECT that possibility and we shouldn't feel any extra sympathy. they joined the military like you or i joined the domestic economy to support our families AND the economy. We keep the economy going so that the people fighting wherever today, have some wealth to come back to (lol okay maybe bankers aren't doing such a good job lol) but I dunno...like nacho, I am very much against war (but agree that WW2 had to happen) and so it should be remembrance day for WW2 only (even WW1 was a bit overglorified).

Don't get your head around why people join the military today, and what was so different back when WW1 and WW2 started.

Many of those vets might have been all too naive and idealistic, fighting for King and Country and whatnot, but many served because they felt it was something they had to do, and they really believed their home nation was under danger from German imperialism/Nazism, whatnot.

So we remember and celebrate those people who are willing to fight for others. If you don't think this is something of worth, well, exactly what is worth commemorating then?

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard +1... in my grandfather's own words (in explaining why he does not display his medals... one of only two times he actually talked to me about the war); "I'm no hero, I was just one of thousands that fought on a beach because the fight had to happen. The only thing that sets me apart from most of them is that I happened to survive being shot." Most veterans have stories to tell, all did their part, all sacrificed more then we could imagine.

Very nice.

Even speaking to many vets, some of them still had trouble talking about what they did, and would only share with those close to them. Some wouldn't even talk to their wife or kids about their experience in the war.
I've never met a vet who said that they enjoyed killing Germans.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On No, quite the opposite. But I, unlike others, do not delude myself into thinking there is something noble or righteous about it.

So, if someone pushes you out of the way so that you don't get hit by a car and that someone gets killed instead, you don't think that's noble?

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Originally posted by Yohan So, if someone pushes you out of the way so that you don't get hit by a car and that someone gets killed instead, you don't think that's noble?

No, it's actually quite dumb.

But I realize you're being hypothetical, so let's play.

If their intention was to preserve my life by sacrificing their own, then they have undoubtedly done me a favour - one that I can never pay back because they are dead and gone. Don't you think that the least I could do is watch out for cars in the future? Don't you think it would be monumentally disrespectful for me to go ahead and get myself hit by a car anyways, despite what this other person has done for me - what they have died for?

Oh, but I forgot, lip service for 2 minutes a year while we so reluctantly soldier on will sate the dead.

it must be great to be so bitter and alone.

quote:

Originally posted by elFreak it must be great to be so bitter and alone.

You, of all people, should be completely aware of the fact that people still love you and hang out with you all of the time even if you're a total fucking cockhead about everything.

i prefer smegma face.

Why are you so bitter (or come off as bitter) towards this and those who give remembrance? If you don't want to do it - don't. If you think it's stupid, so be it but don't try and tell us why it's stupid and shouldn't be done and that getting a country together for 2 minutes of silence is not right for what the soldiers did for us. It's just a service of respect. It's not the only day we think of our loved ones who fought but it's the day you get everyone together. It's a beautiful thing, really.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On No, it's actually quite dumb. But I realize you're being hypothetical, so let's play. If their intention was to preserve my life by sacrificing their own, then they have undoubtedly done me a favour - one that I can never pay back because they are dead and gone. Don't you think that the least I could do is watch out for cars in the future? Don't you think it would be monumentally disrespectful for me to go ahead and get myself hit by a car anyways, despite what this other person has done for me - what they have died for? Oh, but I forgot, lip service for 2 minutes a year while we so reluctantly soldier on will sate the dead.

thank goodness there aren't that many people who think like you do.

or else humanity would have been really fucked

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchie Why are you so bitter (or come off as bitter) towards this and those who give remembrance? If you don't want to do it - don't. If you think it's stupid, so be it but don't try and tell us why it's stupid and shouldn't be done and that getting a country together for 2 minutes of silence is not right for what the soldiers did for us. It's just a service of respect. It's not the only day we think of our loved ones who fought but it's the day you get everyone together. It's a beautiful thing, really.

Because people like you seem to think we all owe our forefathers some debt of the freedom they bestowed upon us by forfeiting theirs - it simply does not work that way. Rememberance is not something you give, it's just something you simply do, so why, oh why, are you so intent on convincing me that some noble deed was done years before I was ever conceived and that I should feel pride or debt or even shame that I could never be as brave as the dead and gone? People should not be burdened by the history of their people - ethnically or nationally. If we are to share our pride and remember all of the nobility and the glory and the sacrifice, then surely it is reprehensible to likewise forgot all of the atrocities of war merely because they do not fit our convenient image. I do not particularly think that any American should feel a great swell of pride when they recall, say, Nagasaki or Hiroshima. But men did it - men in history. What debt would you say that we owe for that? What freedom must we savor because a city full of fucking civilians was wiped off the map?

You want to know why I am bitter over it? Because, just as you would love to fucking parade about, millions of people lost their lives in war. And we can celebrate this fact by closing banks, but we still have not learned a fucking thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On There is nothing exacted without good intention. Whether it is for a greater good or the good of oneself, if the intention is "good", it is noble, right? I suspect that it is your definition of what is "good" that shall be your shortcoming in this.

good and noble are not the same thing.

You're thinking too hard and too deeply. All I do is go to a ceremony, pay my respect and leave. I think it's the least I can do. I don't parade around about it, I don't make people go do the same, I don't think everyone should go out and stand in the cold, sing the national anthem and some other psalms. If you really, REALLY have a problem with people doing this -that's your Prerogative, yes.

i think what he means is a universally accepted notion of "good" or a relative version. I think moral believes in certain universal principles, but halcyon is pushing the relative meaning (i.e. possibly selfish, for one's own good).

semantics, really...but i agree with Halcyon's point about how remembrance is sort of a charade just like valentine's day and christmas and all the other commercialized "days" we have today where we can absolve ourselves of our immoral behaviour by tagging meaning to one day and time for 2 fucking minutes where we show how much we care.

but i'm hypocritical in a way because i do similar things in my religion (fasting, praying, etc.) but i keep on sinning! lol

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard good and noble are not the same thing.

Ah, yes, "good" is what you do and "noble" is just where you intend to do something good. Hah.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Ah, yes, "good" is what you do and "noble" is just where you intend to do something good. Hah.

It's now clear you're simply looking to entertain yourself, as you're far to bright to appear this stupid.

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