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-- 2008 Elections
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Originally posted by Jake Benson You know this from experience huh? Well that's cool. Maybe they should get rid of the law then.

They actually have a lot of laws that don't get enforced... well its more like having a DEA that doesn't hunt people down, instead only acts if they see it in public. Alchohal is a good example of that there.

Also, the religious police there don't ha ve the same power they did 10 years ago.

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Originally posted by everett They actually have a lot of laws that don't get enforced... well its more like having a DEA that doesn't hunt people down, instead only acts if they see it in public. Alchohal is a good example of that there. Also, the religious police there don't ha ve the same power they did 10 years ago.

Do they ever enforce the anti-gay law? I mean for example maybe Iran doesn't "enforce the law" either, but they sure did when they caught two 16 year old guys making out, waited until they were 18, and then hung them (this happened in 2005. I got pics to show).

Ahhhh, we're going way off topic now. Sorry.

My friend who thinks he's psychic said that H. Clinton will be president in 2008. If she isn't I'm going to laugh at him and make him feel insecure for coming up with "facts" when he jumps outside reality.

What do you guys think about Guliani? He seems to be the most "pop" Republican candidate. He readily admits 3 things that differs him from the traditional Rep (not so anti-gay, pro abortion, some gun control). Will that make or break him?

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Originally posted by Jake Benson Do they ever enforce the anti-gay law? I mean for example maybe Iran doesn't "enforce the law" either, but they sure did when they caught two 16 year old guys making out, waited until they were 18, and then hung them (this happened in 2005. I got pics to show). Ahhhh, we're going way off topic now. Sorry. My friend who thinks he's psychic said that H. Clinton will be president in 2008. If she isn't I'm going to laugh at him and make him feel insecure for coming up with "facts" when he jumps outside reality. What do you guys think about Guliani? He seems to be the most "pop" Republican candidate. He readily admits 3 things that differs him from the traditional Rep (not so anti-gay, pro abortion, some gun control). Will that make or break him?

Like I said, it happens behind closed doors, and the law doesn't TRY to find you. Men publicly hold hands and I was told it's custom, but I rarely see it so it doesn't seem customary.

Anyway, back on topic... Honestly Guilliani is just riding the 9/11 horse and that's what makes him popular, he's not all that special.

I don't like any of the popular candidates right now

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Originally posted by everett Anyway, back on topic... Honestly Guilliani is just riding the 9/11 horse and that's what makes him popular, he's not all that special.

I just read in the NY times today that there's a lot of people sick who worked on the 9-11 site, and the conclusion seems to be that Guliani overlooked some general health codes and practices. Not good.

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Originally posted by Jake Benson I just read in the NY times today that there's a lot of people sick who worked on the 9-11 site, and the conclusion seems to be that Guliani overlooked some general health codes and practices. Not good.

there wasn't much of a precedent for him to follow

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Originally posted by ResonantDrag there wasn't much of a precedent for him to follow

You mean there weren't any health rules for him to follow? Here's the article from NYtimes articulating the matter:

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By ANTHONY DePALMA Published: May 14, 2007 Anyone who watched Rudolph W. Giuliani preside over ground zero in the days after 9/11 glimpsed elements of his strength: decisiveness, determination, self-confidence. Illness Persisting in 9/11 Workers, Big Study Finds (September 6, 2006) Those qualities were also on display over the months he directed the cleanup of the collapsed World Trade Center. But today, with evidence that thousands of people who worked at ground zero have become sick, many regard Mr. Giuliani�s triumph of leadership as having come with a human cost. An examination of Mr. Giuliani�s handling of the extraordinary recovery operation during his last months in office shows that he seized control and largely limited the influence of experienced federal agencies. In doing that, according to some experts and many of those who worked in the trade center�s ruins, Mr. Giuliani might have allowed his sense of purpose to trump caution in the rush to prove that his city was not crippled by the attack. Administration documents and thousands of pages of legal testimony filed in a lawsuit against New York City, along with more than two dozen interviews with people involved in the events of the last four months of Mr. Giuliani�s administration, show that while the city had a safety plan for workers, it never meaningfully enforced federal requirements that those at the site wear respirators. At the same time, the administration warned companies working on the pile that they would face penalties or be fired if work slowed. And according to public hearing transcripts and unpublished administration records, officials also on some occasions gave flawed public representations of the nature of the health threat, even as they privately worried about exposure to lawsuits by sickened workers. �The city ran a generally slipshod, haphazard, uncoordinated, unfocused response to environmental concerns,� said David Newman, an industrial hygienist with the New York Committee on Occupational Safety and Health, a labor group. City officials and a range of medical experts are now convinced that the dust and toxic materials in the air around the site were a menace. More than 2,000 New York City firefighters have been treated for serious respiratory problems. Seventy percent of nearly 10,000 recovery workers screened at Mount Sinai Medical Center have trouble breathing. City officials estimate that health care costs related to the air at ground zero have already run into the hundreds of millions of dollars, and no one knows whether other illnesses, like cancers, will emerge. The question of who, if anyone, is to blame for not adequately protecting the workers could finally be decided in United States District Court in Manhattan, where thousands of firefighters, police officers and other recovery workers are suing the city for negligence. City officials have always maintained that they acted in good faith to protect everyone at the site but that many workers chose not to wear available safety equipment, for a variety of reasons. Mr. Giuliani has said very little publicly about how his leadership might have influenced the behavior of the men and women who worked at ground zero. Mr. Giuliani, whose image as a 9/11 hero has been a focus of his run for president, declined to be interviewed for this article. His representatives did not respond to specific questions about the pace of the cleanup, the hazards at the site and Mr. Giuliani�s reticence about the workers� illnesses. Moreover, many of the people who ran agencies for Mr. Giuliani or who handled responsibility for the health issues after he left office would not comment, citing the pending litigation. In the past, Mr. Giuliani has said that quickly reopening the financial district was essential for healing New York and the nation. The cost of Wall Street�s going dark was enormous, and Mr. Giuliani has said he was forced to balance competing interests as he confronted a never-imagined emergency, and he acknowledged that he and others made mistakes.

My interpretation of this is that Guliani wanted to clean up so fast he disregarded the workers' health.

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Originally posted by Jake Benson You mean there weren't any health rules for him to follow? Here's the article from NYtimes articulating the matter:

no, i mean that there weren't any other occasions where the world's largest buildings collapsed and needed to be cleaned up.

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My interpretation of this is that Guliani wanted to clean up so fast he disregarded the workers' health.

so now he's a GC? my interpretation of this is that he wanted his city to be up and running again. i don't think he told anyone not to wear respirators. he just didn't want the usual work slow methos of government contractors to apply in this case. if you don't understand what i mean by work slow.. drive by any highway crew.

not that i think that the man is infallible, but to try to peg something like this (an extraordinary situation that required extraordinary measures) on him is a little shallow and very typical of the types of civil cases presently in existence. of course mistakes were made, many less than if you or i were in charge at the time.

quote:

Originally posted by ResonantDrag no, i mean that there weren't any other occasions where the world's largest buildings collapsed and needed to be cleaned up.

Ever think the same rules apply? I don't think they were looking at the manual and thinking, "Well it says here to wear a mask if a small apartment building collapses. But this was a HUGE building. So I guess it's different. Let's not wear a mask"

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so now he's a GC? my interpretation of this is that he wanted his city to be up and running again. i don't think he told anyone not to wear respirators. he just didn't want the usual work slow methos of government contractors to apply in this case. if you don't understand what i mean by work slow.. drive by any highway crew.

Maybe it would have been more beneficial to work more slowly and cautiously.

quote:

not that i think that the man is infallible, but to try to peg something like this (an extraordinary situation that required extraordinary measures) on him is a little shallow and very typical of the types of civil cases presently in existence. of course mistakes were made, many less than if you or i were in charge at the time.

I don't think there's anything shallow about health concerns. But if it were me, I'd point the blame at the "health officials" which I think Guliani was not.

quote:

Originally posted by Jake Benson Ever think the same rules apply? I don't think they were looking at the manual and thinking, "Well it says here to wear a mask if a small apartment building collapses. But this was a HUGE building. So I guess it's different. Let's not wear a mask"

i invite you to read the entire post before responding next time.

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Maybe it would have been more beneficial to work more slowly and cautiously.

yes, who needs the chief financial center of the United States anyway? Our economy could of afforded a few more months of crippling effects. this has nothing to do working too fast, just that the contractor involved did not furnish the necessary equipment for their employees.

quote:

I don't think there's anything shallow about health concerns. But if it were me, I'd point the blame at the "health officials" which I think Guliani was not.

so now you don't think it was Giuliani's fault? jeez. make up your mind, man.

quote:

Originally posted by ResonantDrag i invite you to read the entire post before responding next time.

I did and my response was entirely accurate. I don't think that following health protocol differs just because two large buildings collapse. However, I understand that this was by far the largest disaster and usual health concerns were pushed aside in order to clean up quickly.

quote:

yes, who needs the chief financial center of the United States anyway? Our economy could of afforded a few more months of crippling effects. this has nothing to do working too fast, just that the contractor involved did not furnish the necessary equipment for their employees.

So I guess it's the contractor's fault then...

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so now you don't think it was Giuliani's fault? jeez. make up your mind, man.

Common, do you have down syndrome? Is my mind always completely made up? Do you think that new and convincing information doesn't ever suade me to change my mind? If you reason with me then of course I'll consider different facts and change my mind if I find it convincing. The article from the NYTimes obviously wasn't thorough enough.

quote:

Originally posted by Jake Benson I did and my response was entirely accurate. I don't think that following health protocol differs just because two large buildings collapse. However, I understand that this was by far the largest disaster and usual health concerns were pushed aside in order to clean up quickly. So I guess it's the contractor's fault then... Common, do you have down syndrome? Is my mind always completely made up? Do you think that new and convincing information doesn't ever suade me to change my mind? If you reason with me then of course I'll consider different facts and change my mind if I find it convincing. The article from the NYTimes obviously wasn't thorough enough.

yes, i have ddown syndrome, and i would appreciate you not making fun of me. and please refer to it as "differently abled" from now on. your bunny suit is funny.

haveing looked in to the recent accusations of Giuliani and it seems as though the only thing that can stick is that the city did not "enforce" workers to wear the 130,000 respirators that were provided.

This whole thing stinks that same smell of Rove's attacks on McCain back in 2000. the NYT must be having a slow news day, or playing dirty.

quote:

Originally posted by ResonantDrag yes, i have ddown syndrome, and i would appreciate you not making fun of me. and please refer to it as "differently abled" from now on. your bunny suit is funny.

haha, then don't say I can't make up my mind, because I can, then change it again, mofo.

quote:

haveing looked in to the recent accusations of Giuliani and it seems as though the only thing that can stick is that the city did not "enforce" workers to wear the 130,000 respirators that were provided.

It's really minor, but I just wanted to point it out because it's the first piece of "dirt" I've seen on him.

quote:

Originally posted by Jake Benson haha, then don't say I can't make up my mind, because I can, then change it again, mofo. It's really minor, but I just wanted to point it out because it's the first piece of "dirt" I've seen on him.

um, excuse me.. he's pro-choice!

A semi-interesting spat over Ron Paul's idea about the cause of 9/11...

quote:

Giuliani to Paul: 'Take back' 9/11 comments WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Why did terrorists attack the U.S. on 9/11? According to Texas Congressman Ron Paul, "They attack us because we've been over there. We've been bombing Iraq for 10 years. We've been in the Middle East." Restrained, but clearly angry, former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani jumped in, calling Paul's statement "extraordinary." "As someone who lived through the attack of September 11 -- that we invited the attack because we were attacking Iraq -- I don't think I've ever heard that before, and I've heard some pretty absurd explanations for September 11th," he said. Giuliani's fiery response prompted applause and the following demand from the former mayor: "I would ask the congressman to withdraw that comment and tell us that he didn't really mean that." In response, Congressman Paul said that "if we think that we can do what we want around the world and not incite hatred, then we have a problem ... They come and they attack us because we're over there."

http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/blogs/politicalticker/

^^

yeah, like he'll get the republican nomination.

9/11 9/11. That's all I hear from that guy

food for thought

already two republican debates into the race, and nobody has yet mentioned George Bush. Has the party started to wise up?

quote:

Originally posted by ResonantDrag food for thought already two republican debates into the race, and nobody has yet mentioned George Bush. Has the party started to wise up?

That along with the fact of uttering Bush would be political suicide...

Just some interesting FYI about what some people are worth.

quote:

Bush's wealth eclipsed by Cheney's May 16, 2007 - 10:32AM US President George Bush held assets worth $US7.5 million ($9 million) to $US20 million last year, but was eclipsed by his Vice-President's wealth, financial records released on Tuesday showed. Bush's assets included his 650 hectare ranch in Texas, valued at $US1 million to $US5 million, where he usually spends his vacations. He also reported assets of $US775,689 from a limited liability company organised in 2003 to produce trees for commercial sales, which were expected in 2007. Among his holdings were certificates of deposit, Treasury notes, a qualified diversified trust, and $US116,000 assets of the GWB Rangers Corp, which is wholly owned by Bush from when he was co-owner of the Texas Rangers baseball team. Cheney reported assets valued at $US21 million to about $US100 million. Cheney gained much of his wealth from his former role heading oil service firm Halliburton. Cheney's largest holdings included investments in an American Century Investments International Bond Fund and a Vanguard short-term tax-exempt fund. He has 100,000 Halliburton stock options that are unexercised and designated for charity. The financial disclosure statements only give the value of assets in ranges. Bush reported gifts totalling $US12,364 last year, including three separate sets of fishing equipment. White House staff gave Bush two benches made of wood taken from the President's ranch, valued at $US1600, and a pair of $US185 cuff links. The Vice-President reported receiving $US121,674 in gifts, including three fishing rods, a pair of $US615 leather hunting boots and a $US399 cowboy hat. Reuters

Neither are worth nearly as much as I thought, which is at least on the above-board level and not undisclosed holdings (and trust me, any one worth more than $3mil and with half a brain has undisclosed holdings! )
Cheney is certainly a popular boy in terms of gifts...

"I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

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