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-- Hugo...doing it again.
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Originally posted by LazFX but ok, yeah George, I flew off of the handle on you and you are forgiven nah man, my bad..

Cheers dude

Anyway, that Chavez, he's a bit of a character ain't he!

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Originally posted by LazFX lets just change a few words in what he stated:

LOL, that's not changing a few words at all. A bit of an understatement dont' you think?

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Originally posted by LazFX now if I would of stated that, you and the rest of you "moon god worshipers" would of ran to Lira and called me out..... am I right??

No, I would probably find it amusing. And I don't go "running to Lira" eighter lol. He noticed your'e an asshole all on his own. You do a fairly good job of convincing most of us, so give yourself some credit and don't be so humble.

He wants to go to war with us now!!!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/ne...icle2368707.ece

Probably rhetoric to curry favour in Argentina where his ally is off to elections shortly, he also has designs for some kind of South American union (EU-style) with Argentina being his major target (he gave them a lot of money recently for something as I recall)

As for the Falklands, well, perhaps a vote amongst the population would be a better option than war (with Britain still winning!)

If I was a high net-worth individual in Venezuala, I'de either move or place my money in offshore accounts.

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Originally posted by Krypton If I was a high net-worth individual in Venezuala, I'de either move or place my money in offshore accounts.

If you were a high net-worth individual in Venezuala 5 years ago you'd have done that. Now I'm betting that the only people who have high net worth are those who are friends of the regime ... I mean people, friends of the people.

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Originally posted by atbell If you were a high net-worth individual in Venezuala 5 years ago you'd have done that. Now I'm betting that the only people who have high net worth are those who are friends of the regime ... I mean people, friends of the people.

And Castro claims not to be a millionaire.

Come on Mr. Castro. We're not that stupid.

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Originally posted by George Smiley He wants to go to war with us now!!! http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/ne...icle2368707.ece Probably rhetoric to curry favour in Argentina where his ally is off to elections shortly, he also has designs for some kind of South American union (EU-style) with Argentina being his major target (he gave them a lot of money recently for something as I recall) As for the Falklands, well, perhaps a vote amongst the population would be a better option than war (with Britain still winning!)

LOL, Britain would mess Venezuela up so bad if it ever did come to war. But it's obviously just a political ploy to kiss Argentina's ass as you said. Still, the little man's got some balls to stand up to the Old Empire like that.

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Originally posted by Krypton If I was a high net-worth individual in Venezuala, I'de either move or place my money in offshore accounts.

And you would have preferred the regime that came before Chavez?!

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Originally posted by Krypton If I was a high net-worth individual in Venezuala, I'de either move or place my money in offshore accounts.

Many of them are. And I thought the article I posted a page or two back went completely ignored!

Here's a fresh one just in case...

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Chavez Economy Unravels as Venezuela Currency Weakens 2007-09-03 14:59 (New York) (Adds today's bolivar price in third paragraph.) By Alex Kennedy and Matthew Walter Sept. 3 (Bloomberg) -- Hugo Chavez's economy is starting to unravel in the currency market. While Venezuela earns record proceeds from oil exports, consumers face shortages of meat, flour and cooking oil. Annual inflation has risen to 16 percent, the highest in Latin America, as President Chavez tripled government spending in four years. Exxon Mobil Corp. and ConocoPhillips are pulling out after Chavez demanded they cede control of joint venture projects. The currency, the bolivar, has tumbled 28 percent this year to 4,750 per dollar on the black market, the only place it trades freely because of government controls on foreign exchange. That's less than half the official rate of 2,150 set in 2005. Chavez may have to devalue the bolivar to reduce the gap and increase oil proceeds that make up half the state's revenue. ``This has been the worst managed oil boom in Venezuela's history,'' said Ricardo Hausmann, a former government planning minister who now teaches economics at Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts. ``A devaluation is a foregone conclusion. The only question is when.'' Chavez will devalue the bolivar 14 percent in the first quarter of 2008 after he introduces a new currency on Jan. 1 that will lop three zeros off all denominations, according to JPMorgan Chase & Co., the third-largest U.S. bank, and Merrill Lynch & Co., the biggest brokerage firm. The new currency, to be called the strong bolivar, will have an exchange rate of 2.15 per dollar, the equivalent of today's rate, Finance Minister Rodrigo Cabezas said last week. Analysts forecast the official rate will decline 13 percent by the end of 2008, according to the median of nine estimates in a Bloomberg survey. Healthcare, Housing ``We're not going to devalue no matter how much they pressure us,'' Cabezas told reporters in Caracas on Aug. 31. ``The so-called parallel market doesn't dictate our fiscal, exchange or monetary policies.'' Chavez, an ally of Cuban President Fidel Castro who calls capitalism ``evil,'' weakened the currency 11 percent in 2005. He imposed restrictions on foreign exchange in 2003 to halt capital flight that has driven down the bolivar more than 70 percent since he took office in 1999. A devaluation would give the government more bolivars from its oil export tax receipts, helping fund Chavez's policies to provide free healthcare, housing and discounted food to millions of Venezuelans. The government says social programs helped cut the poverty rate to 34 percent in the first half of 2006 from 49 percent eight years earlier. Oil, which has risen 155 percent in the past five years, accounts for about 90 percent of Venezuela's exports. The country is the fifth-biggest member in the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries. Trips to Curacao As the gap between the official exchange rate and the black market rate has increased, so has the incentive to exploit rules, such as a regulation that allows people to spend $5,000 a year on their credit cards while traveling abroad. Some Venezuelans travel to nearby Curacao, where they buy $5,000 of casino poker chips with their credit cards, exchange the chips for cash and then sell the dollars in the black market back in Caracas. ``People are invoking their right to circumvent what are very, very stiff controls,'' said Alberto Ramos, senior Latin America economist at Goldman Sachs Group Inc. in New York. The foreign exchange regulations are part of the controls that Chavez, 53, has created in his ``march to socialism.'' The government sets retail prices on hundreds of consumer products and fixes both the maximum rate at which banks can lend and the minimum interest they can pay depositors. Chavez, who is seeking to end presidential term limits, has taken $17 billion of foreign reserves from the central bank and expropriated dozens of farms that he deemed underutilized. Exxon, ConocoPhillips He nationalized Venezuela's biggest private electric and telephone utilities and took majority stakes in oil projects owned by Exxon, the world's largest producer, and ConocoPhillips, the third-biggest in the U.S. Foreign direct investment was a negative $881 million in the first half as foreign companies pulled out money. Chavez terminated the broadcast license of the country's most-watched television network in May, sparking weeks of student protests. He has threatened to take over cement makers, hospitals, banks, supermarkets and butcher shops, saying they weren't obeying price controls. ``It's like our director of marketing, our director of sales, our director of manufacturing is President Chavez,'' said Edgar Contreras, who runs international operations at Molinos Nacionales CA, a Caracas-based food manufacturer that employs 1,500 people. ``We can't go on like this.'' `Fantasy Prices' Contreras called the government-set prices on many products ``fantasy prices'' that are below production costs. Items including milk, chicken, coffee and flour have disappeared from store shelves in Caracas at times this year because companies refused to sell at a loss. The government has responded by giving importers more dollars at the official exchange rate. Imports soared 43 percent in the first half to a record $20 billion after tripling in the previous three years. The country's current account surplus fell almost in half to $8.8 billion in the first half even as near-record high oil prices buoyed exports. Crude oil for October delivery rose 4.2 percent last week to $74.04 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange. ``The growth in imports is so out of whack that it's choking off the local sector,'' said Teodoro Petkoff, a former government planning minister who now publishes opposition tabloid Tal Cual in Caracas. ``The engine of growth isn't the real economy. It's the government.'' `House of Cards' While the rise in government spending fueled economic growth of 9 percent in the first half, output in five of 16 manufacturing industries shrank from January to May, according to the central bank. Harvard's Hausmann said the growth in public spending has been so rapid that the government needs oil prices to keep rising to hold its deficit in check. He estimates the public sector deficit will equal about 5 percent of gross domestic product this year. The Finance Ministry forecasts the public sector will post a balanced budget this year, Public Credit Director Luis Davila said last month. ``For the macroeconomic house of cards not to come crashing down, the price of oil has to go up at double digit growth rates,'' Hausmann said. ``If oil stays at $70, they're going to hit the wall.'' --With reporting by Theresa Bradley in New York. Editor: Papadopoulos .

Erm a bad economy does not equal dictatorship does it?

In fact, the economic situation of Venezuela is completely exclusive to whether or not Venezuela is a dictatorship

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Originally posted by George Smiley Erm a bad economy does not equal dictatorship does it? In fact, the economic situation of Venezuela is completely exclusive to whether or not Venezuela is a dictatorship

Not after he's nationalized everything...

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Originally posted by George Smiley Erm a bad economy does not equal dictatorship does it? In fact, the economic situation of Venezuela is completely exclusive to whether or not Venezuela is a dictatorship

I don't think you're looking at it correctly. At least that statement seems backwards. The dictator (substitute "horrible official") is largely responsible for the worsening economy and its woes. Chavez leadership goes hand-in-hand with Venezuela's shitty economic problems because he has helped to fuel them.

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Originally posted by Shakka I don't think you're looking at it correctly. At least that statement seems backwards. The dictator (substitute "horrible official") is largely responsible for the worsening economy and its woes. Chavez leadership goes hand-in-hand with Venezuela's shitty economic problems because he has helped to fuel them.

No I'm looking at it perfectly. Every country in the world has had bad economic periods - look at the USA in the 30s or the UK in the 90s - were either of them considered dictatorships by anyone? No. Economic performance never has and never will be a marker of dictatorship. Sure the government of the day is responsible for the economy, but to suggest that poor economic performances = dictatorship is opportunist at best, and stupid at worst...

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Originally posted by George Smiley No I'm looking at it perfectly. Every country in the world has had bad economic periods - look at the USA in the 30s or the UK in the 90s - were either of them considered dictatorships by anyone? No.

Were those "bad" economic periods that you speak of the result of the actions of their leadership? No. Certainly not directly so. I don't disagree that poor economic conditions can arise in any system given the proper conditions. Take a look at the U.S. now--it's teetering on recession, but that's not the argument being made here.

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Economic performance never has and never will be a marker of dictatorship. Sure the government of the day is responsible for the economy, but to suggest that poor economic performances = dictatorship is opportunist at best, and stupid at worst...

And again, that's not the argument that I am making (and I don't think that's the way others have been arguing it unless I have missed something). Insofar as Venezuela goes, both articles do a pretty good job of explaining how Chavez is both a quasi-dictator, how his policies are bankrupting his country, and as a result why the shitty economic conditions in Venezuela are by and large a product of the actions of said dictator. Do you disagree? How was the Great Depression in the 30's a result of the leadership? If anything, one could argue that the lack of involvement from Coolidge helped lay the groundwork for the incredibly loose credit standards that fueled rampant speculation that caused the great crash setting off a depression, but that's a pretty stretched out argument that pales in simplicity compared to what's going on in Venezuela. Admittedly I'm less familiar with the UK in the 90's that you're speaking of, but in any case that is irrelevant. You seem to be arguing that if their are poor economic conditions that therefore the leadership must be acting in the form of a dictatorship. Frankly, I don't think anyone is arguing that as it's a ludicrous position. Your premise is reversed. The argument (at least the one that I would make) is that the dictatorship is a causal event in creating poor economic conditions (at least particularly in the case of Venezuela and several others), not the other way around. Economic conditions are a result not a cause. Do you disagree?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Economic performance never has and never will be a marker of dictatorship. Sure the government of the day is responsible for the economy, but to suggest that poor economic performances = dictatorship is opportunist at best, and stupid at worst...

*COUGH*CUBA*COUGH*

you can't make this sh*t up

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Venezuela to ban silly names Venezuelan officials are trying to ban parents from choosing names like Superman for their children. Officials warn attempts to use inappropriate names might be turned down by the civil registry if they "expose them to ridicule, are extravagant or difficult to pronounce". The National Electoral Council has laid out the proposal in a draft Bill circulated to city offices in Caracas. When opponents of President Hugo Chavez last year sought to question the accuracy of the voter rolls, they noted that even Superman was listed. But electoral officials confirmed there are in fact two Venezuelans by that name registered to vote. While unusual names appear in many countries, Venezuelans also use unusual spellings of English names like Maikel or Jhonny. Current Venezuelan law already has a similar measure saying registry authorities should not accept names that would expose children to ridicule. But the issue has until now been left up to the discretion of individual bureaucrats. The new bill proposes to create a list of traditional names that could be offered to parents "as a reference" to provide options when they are registering their child's birth. It says the list would have "no fewer than 100 names" and would grow over time. >LINK<

You're all falling for the same trap as you did earlier on in the thread - equating economic systems for dictatorship - it simply does not work like that. In your culture, you have no history of socialist policies (the ones you do have you simply take for granted and are never informed they are socialist policies) and in fact, your culture has spent 100 years conditioning you to believe that socialism is "evil", so no wonder you equate socialism to dictatorship because that's all you know.

In Europe, we have a long history of socialist thought, and certainly in the UK, we are proud of our National Health Service and would do anything to protect it. That is a completely alien concept in the US because you have never had an NHS, not only that, your culture has conditioned you into thinking policies like this are wrong. Altho I fundamentally disagree with that line of thought, if that's what you believe then fine...

But when you apply your cultural conditioning to other areas of the planet, it simply does not stand up. Somehow big businesses have been successful in America in creating an environment where people believe the freer the corportations, the freer the country. Doesn't work like that in reality I'm afraid (but then the corps and their brethren control the media and they control the flow of information and a lot of people are incapable of thinking outside of that flow of information)

For some reason in America, an environment has been created where increasing the wealth, living standards and education of the vast majority of the population, albeit at the expence of the minority rich, is something to oppose without trying to find out any facts. You suck up whatever the media tell you when a quick search (as I did) should leave you highly sceptical of what you have read about Chavez, as the majority of accusations in the media about Chavez have quickly been proven to be lies or to have perfectly reasonable (yet hidden from American/Western audiences by the media) explanations.

I don't know everything that's happening in Venezuela because I'm not there. I've read a lot of good, and a lot of bad. I've managed to sail through a lot of the bullshit (like media censorship - which nobody has commented on) and to be honest, altho Venezuela seems a pretty rough place to live, it doesn't seem all that different from any other South American country - none of which any of you consider a dictatorship (maybe because you haven't been told to yet?)

Until I read anything convincing about the situation in Venezuela turning into a dictatorship I'm happy to see how Chavez copes. That part of the world is in desperate need of change. The economic situation across the whole region is dire and sorry Laz, but it's nowhere near catching up with the developed world.

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Originally posted by George Smiley You're all falling for the same trap as you did earlier on in the thread - equating economic systems for dictatorship - it simply does not work like that. In your culture, you have no history of socialist policies (the ones you do have you simply take for granted and are never informed they are socialist policies) and in fact, your culture has spent 100 years conditioning you to believe that socialism is "evil", so no wonder you equate socialism to dictatorship because that's all you know. In Europe, we have a long history of socialist thought, and certainly in the UK, we are proud of our National Health Service and would do anything to protect it. That is a completely alien concept in the US because you have never had an NHS, not only that, your culture has conditioned you into thinking policies like this are wrong. Altho I fundamentally disagree with that line of thought, if that's what you believe then fine... But when you apply your cultural conditioning to other areas of the planet, it simply does not stand up. Somehow big businesses have been successful in America in creating an environment where people believe the freer the corportations, the freer the country. Doesn't work like that in reality I'm afraid (but then the corps and their brethren control the media and they control the flow of information and a lot of people are incapable of thinking outside of that flow of information) For some reason in America, an environment has been created where increasing the wealth, living standards and education of the vast majority of the population, albeit at the expence of the minority rich, is something to oppose without trying to find out any facts. You suck up whatever the media tell you when a quick search (as I did) should leave you highly sceptical of what you have read about Chavez, as the majority of accusations in the media about Chavez have quickly been proven to be lies or to have perfectly reasonable (yet hidden from American/Western audiences by the media) explanations. I don't know everything that's happening in Venezuela because I'm not there. I've read a lot of good, and a lot of bad. I've managed to sail through a lot of the bullshit (like media censorship - which nobody has commented on) and to be honest, altho Venezuela seems a pretty rough place to live, it doesn't seem all that different from any other South American country - none of which any of you consider a dictatorship (maybe because you haven't been told to yet?) Until I read anything convincing about the situation in Venezuela turning into a dictatorship I'm happy to see how Chavez copes. That part of the world is in desperate need of change. The economic situation across the whole region is dire and sorry Laz, but it's nowhere near catching up with the developed world.

absolute fucking bullshit we have no history of social policies in this country. we spent $1.3 trillion on around 2 dozen social programs alone in 2005. thats $1.3 TRILLION. thats about 80% of your ENTIRE FUCKING GDP!!!!!!!!



what's happening? ever increasing enrollment, spiraling costs and diminished benefits there is no end to.

i don't really know where you come off implying that we've been "conditioned" (by whom you have no earthly idea i'm sure. the boogey man i guess) to think a certain way about socialism when we can pretty much figure out for our-damn-selves looking at how it's implemented here and around the world that maybe we have a slightly better system in some ways considering that $1.3 trillion, is about 10% of our GDP.

oh and btw. if Chavez sees a 20% drop in oil prices he's fucked. and he knows it.

it wouldn't take him a heartbeat to reverse those policies he's implemented to protect himself if that happened.

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Originally posted by Q5echo absolute fucking bullshit we have no history of social policies in this country. we spent $1.3 trillion on around 2 dozen social programs alone in 2005. thats $1.3 TRILLION. thats about 80% of your ENTIRE FUCKING GDP!!!!!!!!

Sorry I mean you have no socialist cultural history (I did say you had socialist policies, just that they would never be referred to as such)

There is no socialist cultural thinking in America and I stand by that statement

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i don't really know where you come off implying that we've been "conditioned" (by whom you have no earthly idea i'm sure. the boogey man i guess) to think a certain way about socialism when we can pretty much figure out for our-damn-selves looking at how it's implemented here and around the world that maybe we have a slightly better system in some ways considering that $1.3 trillion, is about 10% of our GDP.

Cold War paranoia from your ruling elites - the government, the media and the corporations - have all played their part in conditioning you against socialism, because all of those groups have a vested interest in battling against socialist policies because they are the ones that lose out at the expence of those at the bottom of society.

You assume the American economic system is the best in the world, yet America and the other right wing economies are the worst places in the west to live when you take into account poverty and crime. Sure right wing economies make a lot of money, and when you divide this by population to get a fudged average GDP which incoreectly paints a picture of a nation's wealth, but the further to the right, the more society deteriorates.

So lets look at this closer shall we? You think economic systems that are proven to allow the rich to get richer while society deteriorates around them is a good thing, and think that policies that help combat this phenomenon are a bad thing (and this, in general terms, is something I've noticed from most American posters on here, certainly from my wider experience of American culture this seems to be the norm) - and you want me to believe that American culture has not been conditioned, by those who stand to gain from said conditioning, into this line of thinking, because people naturally think a deteriorating society is a good thing?!

On ya bike son

smiley, Americans haven't been 'conditioned' to oppose socialism. It's in our blood...This country was founded by people rebelling from a tyrannical government, and there has always been an "anti-authority" grain in the American psyche.. Socialism is oppressive by it's nature. The fact that socialist policies oppress a minority ("the rich") in the name of the "the common good" doesn't matter to us. We see it for what it really is...a form of economic slavery based on the use of government FORCE to achieve political ends. This is why many Americans oppose it...not because Ronald McDonald told us to.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt smiley, Americans haven't been 'conditioned' to oppose socialism. It's in our blood...This country was founded by people rebelling from a tyrannical government, and there has always been an "anti-authority" grain in the American psyche.. Socialism is oppressive by it's nature. The fact that socialist policies oppress a minority ("the rich") in the name of the "the common good" doesn't matter to us. We see it for what it really is...a form of economic slavery based on the use of government FORCE to achieve political ends. This is why many Americans oppose it...not because Ronald McDonald told us to.

More proof my assessment is correct. Thankyou Das Kapitalist!

It's "in your blood" eh? You mean its in your culture and that is what I am also saying.

Socialism is economic slavery?! Have you ever heard of the term "economic exploitation"?! And that's a description of capitalism.

Face facts - there is no rational explanation as to why anyone would argue for policies that deteriorate society and against policies that combat that - other than conditioning by the rich and powerful who stand to lose out the more socialist policies are implemented (like min wage, free health care, free education, higher corporate tax, more workers rights)

Unless you can give me a rational explanation as to why Americans tend not to support the above policies then I stand by my statement that your country has been conditioned by the corporate elite to think that way...

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Originally posted by George Smiley There is no socialist cultural thinking in America and I stand by that statement

there is a reason for that and it's not because oligarchs are hiding a pot of gold at the end of some socialist rainbow.

what do you think this epiphany of social thought would bring to this country?

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Cold War paranoia from your ruling elites - the government, the media and the corporations - have all played their part in conditioning you against socialism, because all of those groups have a vested interest in battling against socialist policies because they are the ones that lose out at the expence of those at the bottom of society.

my ruling elites huh? this is the 21st century, man. gimme a fuckin break. that shit might have flown in the thirties but this shit is global now. moving at light speed.

this "media and corporations" crap are the same "media and corporations" that your children are exposed to 24/7/365 all over the planet.

and FYI, Karl, my government is doing a SHITTY job at "battling against social policies"

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You assume the American economic system is the best in the world,

i do assume because it obviously is in terms of the size of the pie. i use those numbers though to make a point. if you are so concerned about your share of said pie, it is in your best interest in America for YOU to get that share. we try our very hardest in government and society to make that opportunity available.
those possibilities are virtualy endless and they happen every day.

this tired propagandist line you give about the "rich get richer and the poor get poorer" is only HALF the story in THIS country Karl.

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On ya bike son

f**k you and your social high horse, "son"

...as if we can't figure out a crap system on our own.

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Originally posted by Q5echo there is a reason for that and it's not because oligarchs are hiding a pot of gold at the end of some socialist rainbow. what do you think this epiphany of social thought would bring to this country? my ruling elites huh? this 21st century, man. gimme a fuckin break. that shit might have flown in the thirties but this shit is global now. moving at light speed. this "media and corporations" crap are the same "media and corporations" that your children are exposed to 24/7/365 all over the planet. and FYI, Karl, my government is doing a SHITTY job at "battling against social policies" i do assume because it obviously is in terms of the size of the pie. i use those numbers though to make a point. if you are so concerned about your share of said pie, it is in your best interest in America for YOU to get that share. we try our very hardest in government and society to make that opportunity available. those possibilities are virtualy endless and they happen every day. this tired propagandist line you give about the "rich get richer and the poor get poorer" is only HALF the story in THIS country Karl. f**k you and your social high horse, "son" ...as if we can't figure out a crap system on our own.

"Karl"? You see that's where you fall flat on your arse in this and any argument concerning socialism. You argue from the perspective that socialism, or socialist policies = communism. They don't. But the fact you think they do shows just how right I am that American culture has been conditioned into a specific way of thinking about socialism and socialist policies.

You see my avatar? European Socialist Party? That is the group the UK Labour Party sit in the European Parliament - do you think the UK's Labour Party is communist? No. Said it before and I'll probably continue to say it whilest every I debate socialist policies with Americans for as long as I live - I am not a communist and do not think communism would ever work

The fact that you are unable to seperate socialist policies (such as min wage, free health care, free education, workers rights) from a criticism of communism proves beyond all reasonable doubt your culture has been conditioned.

FYI:

"Ruling elites" = government and those able to influence it (corporations). It applies today as much as any point in history. You are merely arguing about semantics

"Media and corporations" - you are right, everyone is exposed to this. But America tends to give a rather larger amount if airtime to religious freaks and right wing nutjobs that would get laughed out of the studio on any European channel - yet these are the people controlling US policy right now!!

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