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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN you fucking what?? Somehow I don�t think all those bankers, stock marketers, and innumerable other civilian roles posed a significant problem to anyone, outside financial concerns. edit: and what do you mean by "retaliation for afghanistan" ?

Perhaps he meant 'in retaliation to America's rather aggressive foreign policy?

quote:

Originally posted by Seppuku haha yeah I know, he just didn't realize exactly where in Clearwater he was. He was pissed. Luckily the warranty covered it.

Wtf? So he went to the store, said "hey scientology stole my camera" and they gave him a new camera back?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i definitely agree with you re nationalism, but kamikaze pilots were fighting a war... Islamists routinely blow up targets even though they are not embroiled in any meaningful conflict, much less a world war.

I would hazard to guess that most Islamists would strongly disagree with you on this point. Whether or not we see "any meaningful conflict" is immaterial; they do.

I'd guess anyone willing to blow themselves up for anything would see it themselves as a "meaningful conflict", so I don't know how this argument holds up either way.

quote:

Originally posted by Sushipunk Perhaps he meant 'in retaliation to America's rather aggressive foreign policy?

That makes little sense as the US had no aggressive foreign policy toward Afganistan since they provided the funds and weapons to liberate it from the Soviets. Even if they did; however, the west is really just a useful fool for the Islamists to acheive their goals as opposed to the target of their ambitions. The real goal of the Islamists is to overthrow the political regimes that presently control the Arabic world in favor of Salfist Islamic theocracies... the US is the main target because most of these governments are friendly toward the US (good old capitalist greed) and portraying the US as an enemy of Islam creates conflict between the people and their governments. Drawing the US into armed conflict with the Arabic countries and thereby creating more opposition toward the US and by extention the local governments is the real goal of terrorism.

(I'm paraphrasing Gwynn Dyer)

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard I would hazard to guess that most Islamists would strongly disagree with you on this point. Whether or not we see "any meaningful conflict" is immaterial; they do.

yes, which is exactly my point. whether peace exists or no, there'll always be a war to fight in the name of allah, because there's always somebody, somewhere, that is oppressing/insulting/mocking/destroying islam. hell, if islamists were into trance i have no doubt i'd have been marked for death a while ago

where western powers might distinguish their strategic concerns along the lines of national borders or militia outfits etc, its always a religious war as far as the islamists are concerned.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN yes, which is exactly my point. whether peace exists or no, there'll always be a war to fight in the name of allah, because there's always somebody, somewhere, that is oppressing/insulting/mocking/destroying islam. hell, if islamists were into trance i have no doubt i'd have been marked for death a while ago where western powers might distinguish their strategic concerns along the lines of national borders or militia outfits etc, its always a religious war as far as the islamists are concerned.

The war to fight has never actually been a religious one, it is a political one... the leaders of which have just been really successful in using religion to incite the faithful to action. Ultimately, the suicide bombers and religious extremists are marginal people that have been manipulated into zelots who believe they are fighting for one thing but are really just tools in another fight all together. Make no mistake... outside of the Arabic world (including those who identify themselves as Arabic ethnicly if not geographicly) very few Muslims actually believe that "the west" is "the great satan" (note... satan means rival, not devil/Lucifer/Barbara Streisand, as we believe it to mean).

The good news is that it will be over in 25-50 years anyway. The US is going to abandon their relationships with the Arabic states as oil becomes less important, which will result in "the west" no longer being a useful fool in whipping up discent against the established regimes in the region. Alternatively, the established regimes will order western military presences out and make moves to appear less friendly toward "the west" thereby removing "the west" as the useful fool (you can already see this happening in Saudi Arabia). Eitherway, the utility of seeking conflict with "the west" to bolster revolutionary sentiment within the Arabic world will dwindle rather rapidly in the very near future; subsequently, the rhetoric against "the west" will die down in favour of rhetoric against the estabished regimes (which has always been the real target).

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard (note... satan means rival, not devil/Lucifer/Barbara Streisand, as we believe it to mean).

Scientology is about to be dissbanded in France, which is a very good thing.

If I remember correctly, bin Laden's stated reasons for the WTC attacks were the presence of foreign troops in Saudi Arabia and American support of Israel. It had nothing to do with Afghanistan.

quote:

Originally posted by d-miurge Scientology is about to be dissbanded in France, which is a very good thing.

Burquas, Scientology, religious symbols in schools... they've been doing things right recently

quote:

Originally posted by d-miurge Scientology is about to be dissbanded in France, which is a very good thing.

I read about this recently. They are on the fast track to banning it. Germany is moving towards this also.

quote:

Originally posted by Abercrombie Burquas, Scientology, religious symbols in schools... they've been doing things right recently

Scientology is deemed as a cult in France. Judges are about to dissband scientology, not the executive or legislative powers. So, it has nothing to do with religious symbols in schools (secularism in France is a founding tradition of our democracy, we even have a word that can't be translated in English: la la�cit�), or burquas (the French council of the Muslim Faith won't disapprove a law against burquas).

quote:

Originally posted by d-miurge Scientology is deemed as a cult in France. Judges are about to dissband scientology, not the executive or legislative powers. So, it has nothing to do with religious symbols in schools (secularism in France is a founding tradition of our democracy, we even have a word that can't be translated in English: la la�cit�), or burquas (the French council of the Muslim Faith won't disapprove a law against burquas).

Bien compris




/pied noir

quote:

Originally posted by Abercrombie Bien compris /pied noir

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard The war to fight has never actually been a religious one, it is a political one... the leaders of which have just been really successful in using religion to incite the faithful to action.

im not so sure its that easy to separate the religious-political divide. i mean, take al qaida. their avowed goal is to create an islamic state covering most of the middle east (and after that probably the world, god willing).

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Ultimately, the suicide bombers and religious extremists are marginal people that have been manipulated into zelots who believe they are fighting for one thing but are really just tools in another fight all together.

agreed, but what do you think this other fight is though?

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Make no mistake... outside of the Arabic world (including those who identify themselves as Arabic ethnicly if not geographicly) very few Muslims actually believe that "the west" is "the great satan" (note... satan means rival, not devil/Lucifer/Barbara Streisand, as we believe it to mean).

lols. i didnt know the satan term had another meaning. where i come from satan is a relatively unambiguous expression!

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard The good news is that it will be over in 25-50 years anyway. The US is going to abandon their relationships with the Arabic states as oil becomes less important, which will result in "the west" no longer being a useful fool in whipping up discent against the established regimes in the region. Alternatively, the established regimes will order western military presences out and make moves to appear less friendly toward "the west" thereby removing "the west" as the useful fool (you can already see this happening in Saudi Arabia). Eitherway, the utility of seeking conflict with "the west" to bolster revolutionary sentiment within the Arabic world will dwindle rather rapidly in the very near future; subsequently, the rhetoric against "the west" will die down in favour of rhetoric against the estabished regimes (which has always been the real target).

yeah, not so sure about the oil part, i think oil will become MORE important before it becomes less, but they're definitely using the great barbara streisand as a recruiting tool/poster child for their more realistic goals against wishy-washy islamic states that exist currently.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard outside of the Arabic world (including those who identify themselves as Arabic ethnicly if not geographicly) very few Muslims actually believe that "the west" is "the great satan" (note... satan means rival, not devil/Lucifer/Barbara Streisand, as we believe it to mean).

As far as I know, Shaitana dn Iblis are both independent entities that have much in common with the judeo-Chrisitan satan. I've spoken to SE Asian Muslims (indonesian and malay) about this and as far as I gather they have a similar understanding.

I'm joining the Church of Satan. Serisouly, Satanism is where it's at. Act like ya know, not now but right now.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism

Moral Hazard pretty much summed up what I meant.

9/11 was an attack on America. Innocent citizens, yes, but still an act designed to hurt 'the enemy'. Since the Cold War, America and other Western nations have spent millions, both publicly and privately, in abolishing Middle-Eastern regimes they didn't agree with and propping up the governments they thought were best for their interests in the region.

Many Muslims in the area feel cheated and humiliated by these actions. 9/11 was the embodiment of these feelings. Sushi got it right when he said the attack was in response to 'aggressive foreign policy'.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard That makes little sense as the US had no aggressive foreign policy toward Afganistan since they provided the funds and weapons to liberate it from the Soviets. Even if they did; however, the west is really just a useful fool for the Islamists to acheive their goals as opposed to the target of their ambitions. The real goal of the Islamists is to overthrow the political regimes that presently control the Arabic world in favor of Salfist Islamic theocracies... the US is the main target because most of these governments are friendly toward the US (good old capitalist greed) and portraying the US as an enemy of Islam creates conflict between the people and their governments. Drawing the US into armed conflict with the Arabic countries and thereby creating more opposition toward the US and by extention the local governments is the real goal of terrorism. (I'm paraphrasing Gwynn Dyer)

This sounds fairly correct to me, except you missed that the current political regimes are sympathetic to the US because they have been carried into power by it.

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated Moral Hazard pretty much summed up what I meant. 9/11 was an attack on America. Innocent citizens, yes, but still an act designed to hurt 'the enemy'. Since the Cold War, America and other Western nations have spent millions, both publicly and privately, in abolishing Middle-Eastern regimes they didn't agree with and propping up the governments they thought were best for their interests in the region. Many Muslims in the area feel cheated and humiliated by these actions. 9/11 was the embodiment of these feelings. Sushi got it right when he said the attack was in response to 'aggressive foreign policy'.

fuck em, might makes right! last time i checked radical islamists waged war on everyone because nobody (apart from themselves) is a "true" muslim.

the documentary "the power of nightmares" is an awesome examination of radical islam against the backdrop of american neoconservatism.

I think Islamists rally around their religion like the communists rallied around their ideology. Revolution! Islamist revolution! 9/11 was supposed to be the catalyst of this revolution. Unfortunately for Zawahiri and bin Laden, it didn't work.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton I think Islamists rally around their religion like the communists rallied around their ideology. Revolution! Islamist revolution! 9/11 was supposed to be the catalyst of this revolution. Unfortunately for Zawahiri and bin Laden, it didn't work.

Hey, your sig is better that PKC's.

quote:

Originally posted by Sushipunk Hey, your sig is better that PKC's.

Hah! His rank is slightly higher than mine though... There are 4 factions. His sig is the Cybran one. I'm the Seraphim, because that's all I play with.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Hah! His rank is slightly higher than mine though... There are 4 factions. His sig is the Cybran one. I'm the Seraphim, because that's all I play with.

Oh, well that's a let-down.

Well, yours looks better!

Edit: Yeah, now I see the # ranking overall. He really failed for a while there though, huh? Haha!

Ha.

Ha.

:/

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