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-- Vinyls vs. CDs
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quote:

Originally posted by Freak cds DO suffer from wear and tear - even just being in cd wallets they pick up small scratches- also the club cd players wear out the playing surface...

Scratches and the like don't affect the sound quality at all. And I've never heard of any cd players wearing out the playing surface?? Just for your information, the "playing surface" is just a thick layer of plastic. The real data lies on an aluminum layer behind it (in the case of pressed cd's), or on a gold layer (if it is a CD-R). CD-players don't destroy this layer, they only shoot light that reflects off of it so they can read the information.

EDIT: but you're right in that scratches can be a problem if it causes the cd to skip (since the scratch in the plastic causes the laser to incorrectly read the information; i.e., if the scratch is deep enough the laser reflects improperly I believe).

EDIT#2: I think that people are incorrectly bringing their "vinyl experience" over to CD's. Since vinyls are so vulnerable to damage and regularly deteriorate in sound quality with every play, people somehow believe the same is true of CD's, even though it isn't. They're digital, so if you can read the information, it will be the same every time; no deterioration. Freak, forgive me if I misunderstood your post!

Hmmm....

I would think that Freak meant the surface and not the data. It doesn't really matter where the CD gets damaged, the point is that is does. Splitting hairs springs to mind...
While the pysical reading of a CD wont damage the digital information it is true that vinyl will get ever so slightly worn each time you play it.
It still takes a hell of a lot of plays for vinyl to sound worse than a CD (As sound quality is better on vinyl due to unbroken wave form vs broken). CDs also have this knack of accumulating small scratches that will in time sound like crap if they get deep enough. It's worth noting that the difference in effect on a dancefloor by a scratched CD compared to a scratched vinyl is also different. People will be genuinly distressed at the sound of a CD that jams in one place, where as a scratch on vinyl often causes amusement to those that notice it.

I have seen turntablists using the loop created by a scratched record to great effect in DMC competitions. Something that can't be said for CDs.

Bottom line. I still think that if you limit yourself to one or the other you will loose that creative edge. I can't understand why some people have to be so aggressive to CDs or visa versa. It makes no sense.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by Freak cds DO suffer from wear and tear - even just being in cd wallets they pick up small scratches- also the club cd players wear out the playing surface...

Why would a club cd player but not a normanl cd player wear out the playing surface. I have CD's from the 80's that have absolutely no wear and tear on them from being overplayed...whereas everytime you play a record, you damage it.

Spin both and you'll be a much better DJ, end of story....

and for anyone that thinks big DJ's stick to vinyl...
Sharam of Deep Dish's chart for October (notice all the CDRs)
1 UNKLE In A State (Sasha Remix) Mo Wax CDR
2 Dido Stoned (Deep Dish Remix)' CDR
3 Felix Da Housecat Cyberwhore Rude Photo
4 The Greek Alive (G-Pal Remix) Shinichi
5 Communards Never Can Say Goodbye (16B Mix) CDR
6 Cam Farrar Wasted (Override 12) BMG Australia
7 Stephan Luke Waterfalls (Dub) Fat Free CDR
8 Sumo Yes We Will (Chab/Chris & Kai Remixes) Shinichi Test
9 Trafik Your Light (Luke Chable Remixes) GU Music CDR
10 Pierre Raven & Safar Diving Energy (Laurant Wolf & Fliterheadz mixes) Shinichi
12 Tube & Berger Geradeaus CDR
13 D-foundation Signs & Portents (CF's Original Mix) Beatfreak Recordings
14 DK8 Murder Was The Bass CDR
15 Boogie Balo Chocolate & Peanut Butter (Sidekick Remix) Yo Test
16 Theo & Andy Hedges Rumbling Bass Allied Records
17 Psycatron In The Mood CDR
18 Chemical Soldiers Beautiful People Abyss Records
19 David Penn Feat. Sheylah Cuffy Scream 4 Love (Penn's Iberican Remix) Urbana Recordings
20 Justin Timberlake Senorita (Hani Remix) CDR
21 Fingerfest feat. Lule De Ville Chemical Whore Choo Choo CDR

i think some djs (not big name djs) bash cd use cuz they simply can't mix with cds. Its obvious that mixing with vinyl it's easier; and most djs are too lazy to struggle mixing with cdrs when they can just spin vinyls.

quote:

Originally posted by ...x-LosT Its obvious that mixing with vinyl it's easier;

Funny, I've heard the exact opposite...

Just remember everthing is relative to everybody else's opinions and expriences...

es

I'd guess this has come up before, but for the sheer sake of availability, I'm considering playing cd's along side my vinyl.
More than a few labels are only pressing cd's(think Acid Dance, Parvati, Demon Tea). I'm sick of having to settle on 2nd choice tracks just b/c I can get the rec.
But for the price of getting two cd players I could get a laptop and play mp3's just as easily.
Of course now I've gone from "I'll never mix cd's" to even worse by crouching over a screen. The upside is that I get to play what I want. Isn't that the real point of djing?

Love of music and making people have a good time...that's why I do it.

Nem

quote:

Originally posted by Silas The upside is that I get to play what I want. Isn't that the real point of djing?

If that was the point i would still be in my bedroom playing to my cat..

If i got to play what i want- i wouldnt be working in some of the venues i do......... the whole point is to entertain and play to the crowd..

Great Freak, so you play out.
Does the crowd care what type of media their entertainment is delivered on? How about the guy that hired you?

Actually yes...

The people that hire you will most definately care what medium you play. First reason is that they have to be able to support the format you use (Admittedly not much of a problem in these days. Only time I have any problems is when I'm in Scandinavia where they sometimes don't have 1200s).
Second reason is that most establishments will not like you using ripped material due to various licenses they have to get to play music, where it is clearly stated that you should not play dodgy stuff in your club/bar (not those words exactly but you get the drift).

Another thing is that MP3s tend not to sound so good on a sound system.
Not sure about Freak's club but I know of cases where some people don't care and others go balistic.

Another interesting point that's slightly different is that people are generally happier when they hear a set on vinyl compared to CD or MP3. It's a proven fact that people respond to analogue bass better than digital. Likewise if people get too much treble (Due to bad EQing etc.) then people will be more aggressive. What makes bass powerful is that you feel it as well as hear it. Naturally the analogue waveform is unbroken where as the digital is broken into tiny segments. It may sound the same but it doesn't feel the same.
Until CD is able to do this (And I'm not saying it's not possible) it will still be slightly inferior to vinyl regardless of the amount of tricks and gadgets you whack on a CD turntable.
I am not knocking CDs as I use them from time to time but I much prefer vinyl for this reason.
MP3s have not only got all the waveforms segmented but also have certain information missing due to compression hence it is the weakest format of the three.

I'm not saying you can't rock the crowd on CD decks as I have seen some really good CDJs do just that. But when you get two DJs of equal standard one on CD and one on vinyl, they could even play the same set but the vinyl set would get a better reaction. People would have felt it.

No doubt I will get my arse flamed to hell for this but hey, you can't argue with science. This wasn't set out to disrespect CDJs or anything just give a few facts.

Cheers
Nem

Much appreciated Nem.
My ?'s were sincere, I didn't mean to sound rhetorical.
I'm surprised to hear such reactions to mp3s, i.e. licensing, from club owners. I read something to that effect on Isratrance's board the other day. He was dl'ing tracks, but complained that often the music didn't match the title. The replies were anything but sympathetic. Seems to me it's not nearly such an issue in the states.

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who's used a computer along side vinyl. Seems there would be a better format than mp3's. Something to avoid the problems caused by compression.
Given the choice I'd stick to wax, but it's just not an option. So if it wasn't a question of quality, between a laptop and two cds, I'd prefer the laptop.
-Silas

having had the performing rights sociecty guy (prs is the uk version of the riaa- ie, you pay a license to be able to perform copywrighted material) come round and write down everything you play etc, i wouldnt like to put myself in a position of being fined a potential £1000 per track for using downloads ever again. Its just not worth the risk personally.

I have a lot of cdrs- but they are backups and i have the originals on vinyl or compliations etc...in otherwords im bnot doing anything illegal- simply making it easier for me to carry 4 boxes instead of 25 boxes of tunes.

For me its a feel and a sound thing- i can also definately feel the bass more when its on vinyl as opposed to cd.... one of the clubs i work at has a shed load of bass bins and its noticeable.
That combined with the sound thing and there is no contest- mp3s in comparison tend to sound flat and dull and lacking in bass and transients.

One other important thing to note is the reliability of vinyl vs cd..

If you have crap or dust on a 12", it might pick some up or skip a groove but it will continue playing- when a cd goes tits up, its not the same- it goes into stutter mode and starts pissing about all over the place or pauses. When a record jumps in a breakdown i can pick up the mic and make a joke about it or something- when a cd does it its just plain embarrasing and totally disrupts the flow of the nite.

from my experiences my:

Worst case with CD: the denon in one of my big clubs doenst like cdrs full stop- and has trouble with some proper commercially sold cds...- result if i turned up with purely cd- no music all nite and me fired.

Worst case with Vinyl- stylus snapped in middle of scratching and maybe some earth noise

quote:

Originally posted by Silas Much appreciated Nem. My ?'s were sincere, I didn't mean to sound rhetorical.

Hey Silas,

No worries... didn't actually take it that way
Just give me any excuse to get up on my soap box.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by Silas I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who's used a computer along side vinyl. Seems there would be a better format than mp3's. Something to avoid the problems caused by compression. Given the choice I'd stick to wax, but it's just not an option. So if it wasn't a question of quality, between a laptop and two cds, I'd prefer the laptop. -Silas

Yep I play using Traktor, CD's and Vinyl. Done well you CAN tell the difference, I can pull of stuff on the computer thats not possible on the Decks making Traktor a better option. As for MP3 not sounding as full or as good, that all depends on what you used to rip the tracks originally, what Codec you encode with, what Bit rate and sample rate you encode with. Done right, in blind taste tests you cannot tell the difference, in fact the error rate in those tests is over 60%. With Low Bit rates and that includes 128Kbits you can definitely hear the difference. at 160Kbits it almost always undetectable and at 192KBits or higher I challenge anyone to a blind taste test. If care is taken preparing MP3's the output is awesome. AAC is the next step in compression evolution and given the improvements over 10 years, 160 and 192KBPS AAC files are just incredible. It definitely helps to have a good sound system on the PC to start with. Remember Garbage in - Garbage out! Drive that into a sound system tested and setup for the PC (Sound checks usually take 10 mins or so)and its gonna be a killer night. Can I spin vinyl? Yep, but not nearly as well as I would like. Given time and considerable practice I will get there, but my choice today is Traktor 1 CD's 2 and Vinyl 3. That being said, learning to spin
Vinyl has definitely helped me spin on Traktor.

Phil

vinyl hands down for me!

ah, the old vinyl versus cd debate...well

i'd say a mixture of the two

vinyl all the way!!!

mixing mp3 cds suxx so much!!!

i cant beleive that some djs do that!

quote:

Originally posted by jeremie vinyl all the way!!! mixing mp3 cds suxx so much!!! i cant beleive that some djs do that!

any dj worth his ass uses both. all the top jocks use both.

the djs who use it,, use cd single, or promo stuff not out on vinyl yet!!! but have you ever seen a top djs spinning mp3 cds&??? only because it doesnt cost any $$$ to get the traxx&?&
in my opinion those djs must die

Vinyl

Zzyzx

quote:

Originally posted by jeremie vinyl all the way!!! mixing mp3 cds suxx so much!!! i cant beleive that some djs do that!

....And your comment is based upon what supporting data / facts?
Do you actually Spin?
Have you ever tried Beatmatching and mixing with a couple of CD's like a CDJ 800 or 1000 or the Denon?

If you have not, then try going down to your local Guitar Center with a CD and have em set you up to test out the CDJ. Go spend 20 minute properly mixing and tell me it still sucks, more importantly please tell me why, (just coz ain't a reason!) You'll find that if you do spin then its just as hard to learn to spin CD's properly as it is learn vinyl. If you can work vinyl then it will help on CD's. Lemme know how you get on, please!

Phil

Argh im going to say this again like i have 12 times in the past, their is no better they both have their goods and bads its all about musical preferance, just like music your median is your choise

quote:

Originally posted by Nou PVD and FS, nuff said... well actaully SACD will own all of them, vinyl fidelity and cd durability!

Will be interesting to see what SACD is all about interms of quality etc.

I still think that the people who produce new DJ technology are a bit blinded by profit. I think that they have kind of created a demand where there was none. (Not suggesting however that the vinyl industry isn't profit driven, atleast the more commercial side in any case). MP3Js are actually hurting the industry as are the guys who use coppied CDs. Hooj Choons went bust a while back, Bonzai have been in trouble and so on. Big deal you might say, but think of the classics that they have given us over the years. Music piracy may not be the only cause but I bet it has not helped. In the long run it will also have an effect on the artists of tomorrow.

The thing I notice with a lot of CDJs and MP3Js is that they seem to ignore the fact that vinyl DJS actually enjoy using vinyl. I suppose the same arguement works in reverse too. But the only real arguements that MP3 and CD DJs come with are based on practical or financial issues and not anything to do with sound quality or overall DJing skill. This is not saying that those arguements don't carry any weight.
You do hear the digital guys occasionally mention things like loop effects and so on but to be honest I am not impressed. If you have a turntablist background or know a little about it then you will know that those extras are weak in comparisson to some of the stuff you can do with vinyl.
To be fair I think that us vinyl DJs are going to have to accept the CDJs too and ease off a little as you have some guys out there who are tearing up dancefloors with CDs.

MP3 CDs in contrast do suck in the club environment plain and simple. Too much data has been taken out of the tracks to get a good enough play back. Sure they work fine in smaller venues such has house parties or bedrooms though.

Traktor on it's own...
My brother-inlaw has seen Darude perform a whole set on a PC, which in his words might just as well have been a CD and he could have answering his e-mail for all we know. The experience was not a good one apparently.
Thankfully PVD does put more into his sets using when using FS and while he may not appeal to me on a musical level (both DJing and production) he does know how to put on a good show. He also owns the rights to or the originals of what he plays. Also remember that he uses vinyl and CDs too... perhaps a message in there?

While I look forward to see what SACD is all about I still doubt that anything digital will anytime soon or ever match the sound from a vinyl not saying it wont come close. By digital's very nature the unbroken waveform is a contradiction.

To summarise:
I think realistically all types of DJs are going to have to accept the others as you will find that CDs, FS and Vinyl will play a major role in what happens on our dance floors.
DJing is about making people have a good time. The mediums are just a means to an end.
DJ Mil0 sums it up perfectly.

Cheers
Nem

personally i preffer vinyl, the cdj decks and the dennon just don't feel the same way, but i'd have to admit that a combination of both is the way to go (burning on cdn the stuff you make is much more effective then shelling out the cash to print a few dubplates.)

I've *heard* many times that vinyl sounds better.

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