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-- Do you believe there is a U.S. government cover-up surrounding 9/11?
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God ain't gonna be blessin America for much longer if it continues to go on the current path...

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Originally posted by Krypton God ain't gonna be blessin America for much longer if it continues to go on the current path...

But Jesus will.

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Originally posted by Krypton God ain't gonna be blessin America for much longer if it continues to go on the current path...

Yes, because we know god always steps in to prevent bad shit from happening, as well as punishing evil people and protecting the innocent.

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Originally posted by Krypton It's obviously nationalistic political rhetoric in their fight against perceived imperialism. It seems like they don't realize that all Americans don't support the hegemonic foreign policy of Washington...

Actually, Krypton, when foreigners say "Death to America", quite a few of them do mean it, at least here. I personally grew up in a culture that vilified Americans for nearly everything that happened in the world. This hatred is often so childish and absurd, that it reminds me of some conspiracy theories in this thread, which seem to consider the American government some kind of almighty omnipresent entity. And that came from people I used to look up as a child, namely teachers and grandparents.

If there's anything good about Bush's administration is the fact that it showed the world that Americans dislike their government as much as the rest of us, so it became easier to foreigners to distinguish the government from the people.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer It is the truth for the most part no?

no more than europeans.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Yes, because we know god always steps in to prevent bad shit from happening, as well as punishing evil people and protecting the innocent.

According to some Christians, natural disasters would be the work of Satan, not God. According to those in the Pat Robertson camp, natural disasters are God's judgment. It depends on what kind of theist you ask...

Ephesians 2:2

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

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Originally posted by Krypton According to some Christians, natural disasters would be the work of Satan, not God. According to those in the Pat Robertson camp, natural disasters are God's judgment. It depends on what kind of theist you ask... Ephesians 2:2 1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

God has intervened in the world before (according to virtually any faith worth mentioning) so his spectacular failure to NOT act at various times in the modern era indicates that

A) he doesn�t exist or,

B) he's an inconsistent bastard

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN God has intervened in the world before (according to virtually any faith worth mentioning) so his spectacular failure to NOT act at various times in the modern era indicates that A) he doesn�t exist or, B) he's an inconsistent bastard

It appears God does things according to his will. If the storm was not meant to develop and make landfall somewhere on earth, then it would not have formed. Nature continues on its divine course. According to the bottom passages, storms are both punishment and demonstrator of God's power. He decides, again according to whatever is his will.



Exodus 9:22-26

22 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward the sky so that hail will fall all over Egypt�on men and animals and on everything growing in the fields of Egypt." 23 When Moses stretched out his staff toward the sky, the LORD sent thunder and hail, and lightning flashed down to the ground. So the LORD rained hail on the land of Egypt; 24 hail fell and lightning flashed back and forth. It was the worst storm in all the land of Egypt since it had become a nation. 25 Throughout Egypt hail struck everything in the fields�both men and animals; it beat down everything growing in the fields and stripped every tree. 26 The only place it did not hail was the land of Goshen, where the Israelites were.

Mark 4

5That day when evening came, he said to his disciples, "Let us go over to the other side." 36Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him. 37A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. 38Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, "Teacher, don't you care if we drown?"

39He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, "Quiet! Be still!" Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.

40He said to his disciples, "Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?"

41They were terrified and asked each other, "Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!"

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Originally posted by Krypton It appears God does things according to his will. If the storm was not meant to develop and make landfall somewhere on earth, then it would not have formed. Nature continues on its divine course. According to the bottom passages, storms are both punishment and demonstrator of God's power. He decides, again according to whatever is his will. Exodus 9:22-26 22 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward the sky so that hail will fall all over Egypt�on men and animals and on everything growing in the fields of Egypt." 23 When Moses stretched out his staff toward the sky, the LORD sent thunder and hail, and lightning flashed down to the ground. So the LORD rained hail on the land of Egypt; 24 hail fell and lightning flashed back and forth. It was the worst storm in all the land of Egypt since it had become a nation. 25 Throughout Egypt hail struck everything in the fields�both men and animals; it beat down everything growing in the fields and stripped every tree. 26 The only place it did not hail was the land of Goshen, where the Israelites were. Mark 4 5That day when evening came, he said to his disciples, "Let us go over to the other side." 36Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him. 37A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. 38Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, "Teacher, don't you care if we drown?" 39He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, "Quiet! Be still!" Then the wind died down and it was completely calm. 40He said to his disciples, "Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?" 41They were terrified and asked each other, "Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!"

what a load of crap. we know why storms happen, and it has nothing to do with god.

Wow..this thread turned into religion...Why was Jesus mentioned in a 9/11 thread anyways.?.?.? HARDCORE TRANCER!!!

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN what a load of crap. we know why storms happen, and it has nothing to do with god.

Of course it's a load of crap. You're an atheist. Think for a second from other perspectives other than your own. I'm just telling you what's up from the theological perspective. But I don't think any of this is relevant in a 911 thread...

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Originally posted by Krypton Of course it's a load of crap. You're an atheist. Think for a second from other perspectives other than your own. I'm just telling you what's up from the theological perspective. But I don't think any of this is relevant in a 911 thread...

It has nothing to do with my atheism, its to do with my acceptance of a rational and scientific explanations for weather (which is agreed to by any respectable theologian I might add).

and fuck the 911 thread. its a piece of shit anyway!

yep yep

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Originally posted by Lira that it reminds me of some conspiracy theories in this thread, which seem to consider the American government some kind of almighty omnipresent entity.

The States has been involved in 285 wars/conflicts since 1777. They've backed over 30 coups. God knows what those fucks are capable of.

The following sounds quite familiar.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods


Journalist James Bamford summarized Operation Northwoods in his April 24, 2001 book Body of Secrets:

Operation Northwoods, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war.

Of course.. there's no way they'd ever do something like that.

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Originally posted by {b.s.e.} The States has been involved in 285 wars/conflicts since 1777. They've backed over 30 coups. God knows what those fucks are capable of.

Actually, I do live in a country where one of these 30 coups took place. However, we must take care with this slippery slope and understand that there's a big difference between supporting wars or backing up coup d'etats, as they usually do, and orchestrating grandiose conspiracies.

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Originally posted by Krypton Wow..this thread turned into religion...Why was Jesus mentioned in a 9/11 thread anyways.?.?.? HARDCORE TRANCER!!!

LOL Jesus to the rescue!!!!

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Originally posted by Lira Actually, I do live in a country where one of these 30 coups took place. However, we must take care with this slippery slope and understand that there's a big difference between supporting wars or backing up coup d'etats, as they usually do, and orchestrating grandiose conspiracies.

Agreed. But when oilmen take control of the Whitehouse... I guess everyone considers me a conspiracy nut? I'm saying this because in my opinion, no one in their right mind should look at the WTC tragedy and say, "That was caused by two airliner jets." And that WTC7 was just collateral damage. And that Silverstein didn't stand to gain anything from that Terrorism clause in his newfound lease. It was also coincidence that Marvin Bush was a principal player in Securacom, which provided security for the WTC. The mysterious evacuations days prior to the attacks are merely again, you know. And those eyewitness testimonies from the basement reporting explosions are lying. We also have to accept NORAD's complete failure as coincidence and rarity of such a militarily sound nation, noting that Dick 'Fucking' Cheney was at the helm, telling them to stand down. Cheney by the way, usurped control of NORAD from the military.

But of course, they were simulating a plane flying into a building elsewhere, no wonder they were sidetracked

And of course, we have to accept the worst impersonation of Bin Laden as Bin Laden, you'd be foolish to think otherwise. The tape that Usama released stating, "I was not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States nor did I have knowledge of the attacks. There exists a government within a government within the United States. The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; to the people who want to make the present century a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity. That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks. ... The American system is totally in control of the Jews, whose first priority is Israel, not the United States." << That's the forgery

And we should forget the Bush family altogether.. they've never been involved with anything shady. Wait, didn't Bush Sr. meet with Bin Laden's brother on9-11? He did. Wasn't Prescott Bush hiding Nazi gold in his banks? George Walker, the now President's great-grandfather set up the takeover of the company that pumped gas into gas chambers. They've sold weapons to Saddam, funded Contras, sold coke to destablise Argentina. That family is corrupt, corrupt, corrupt. The mere idea that they were in power during this catastrophe, with a liar like Rumsfeld as SecDef, and a sociopath like Cheney as Left Hand, how could it not be obvious that they are horrible, murdering, lying fucks? lol. It blows my mind how obvious it is, and how easily they seem to get away with it.

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Originally posted by {b.s.e.} Agreed. But when oilmen take control of the Whitehouse... I guess everyone considers me a conspiracy nut? I'm saying this because in my opinion, no one in their right mind should look at the WTC tragedy and say, "That was caused by two airliner jets." And that WTC7 was just collateral damage. And that Silverstein didn't stand to gain anything from that Terrorism clause in his newfound lease. It was also coincidence that Marvin Bush was a principal player in Securacom, which provided security for the WTC. The mysterious evacuations days prior to the attacks are merely again, you know. And those eyewitness testimonies from the basement reporting explosions are lying. We also have to accept NORAD's complete failure as coincidence and rarity of such a militarily sound nation, noting that Dick 'Fucking' Cheney was at the helm, telling them to stand down. Cheney by the way, usurped control of NORAD from the military. But of course, they were simulating a plane flying into a building elsewhere, no wonder they were sidetracked And of course, we have to accept the worst impersonation of Bin Laden as Bin Laden, you'd be foolish to think otherwise. The tape that Usama released stating, "I was not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States nor did I have knowledge of the attacks. There exists a government within a government within the United States. The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; to the people who want to make the present century a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity. That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks. ... The American system is totally in control of the Jews, whose first priority is Israel, not the United States." << That's the forgery And we should forget the Bush family altogether.. they've never been involved with anything shady. Wait, didn't Bush Sr. meet with Bin Laden's brother on9-11? He did. Wasn't Prescott Bush hiding Nazi gold in his banks? George Walker, the now President's great-grandfather set up the takeover of the company that pumped gas into gas chambers. They've sold weapons to Saddam, funded Contras, sold coke to destablise Argentina. That family is corrupt, corrupt, corrupt. The mere idea that they were in power during this catastrophe, with a liar like Rumsfeld as SecDef, and a sociopath like Cheney as Left Hand, how could it not be obvious that they are horrible, murdering, lying fucks? lol. It blows my mind how obvious it is, and how easily they seem to get away with it.

fuck, youre nothing but a known fallacy parrot. indeed, its your complete and utter inability to adequately assess the evidence re 9/11 that stopped me bothering with your other stupid conspiracy theories. If youre that inept with an event that occurred only a few years ago, why would we listen to you about the era of jesus?


10 characteristics of conspiracy theorists
A useful guide by Donna Ferentes

5. Inability to employ or understand Occam's Razor. Aided by the principle in 4. above, conspiracy theorists never notice that the small inconsistencies in the accounts which they reject are dwarfed by the enormous, gaping holes in logic, likelihood and evidence in any alternative account.

6. Inability to tell good evidence from bad. Conspiracy theorists have no place for peer-review, for scientific knowledge, for the respectability of sources. The fact that a claim has been made by anybody, anywhere, is enough for them to reproduce it and demand that the questions it raises be answered, as if intellectual enquiry were a matter of responding to every rumour. While they do this, of course, they will claim to have "open minds" and abuse the sceptics for apparently lacking same.

8. Leaping to conclusions. Conspiracy theorists are very keen indeed to declare the "official" account totally discredited without having remotely enough cause so to do. Of course this enables them to wheel on the Conan Doyle quote as in 4. above. Small inconsistencies in the account of an event, small unanswered questions, small problems in timing of differences in procedure from previous events of the same kind are all more than adequate to declare the "official" account clearly and definitively discredited. It goes without saying that it is not necessary to prove that these inconsistencies are either relevant, or that they even definitely exist.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN 10 characteristics of conspiracy theorists A useful guide by Donna Ferentes 6. Inability to tell good evidence from bad. Conspiracy theorists have no place for peer-review, for scientific knowledge, for the respectability of sources. The fact that a claim has been made by anybody, anywhere, is enough for them to reproduce it and demand that the questions it raises be answered, as if intellectual enquiry were a matter of responding to every rumour. While they do this, of course, they will claim to have "open minds" and abuse the sceptics for apparently lacking same.

You can see this one in damn near every pro conspiracy theory post in this thread. A janitor said that bombs exploded in the WTC basement to bring down the buildings? That must be a fact then right? Wait, it contradicts all other eye witness testemony plus video evidence that we all saw live on TV showing two planes hitting the WTC and the building clearly collapsing from the top down? Never mind that, if a janitor saw explosions in the basement that must have been what happened, right?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN fuck, blah blah blah, fuck, blah blah

You really like that list, don't you? If you'd like to argue the basmement eyewitness, fine. You don't give me a clear reason why Cheney usurped power from the military and controlled NORAD on 9-11? And of course, the Bush/Saudi/Bin Laden ties are all fallacies as well.

You do a great job of being cynical, let me say, but copying and pasting from that stupid list is pretty redundant and means nothing to me. Explain to me why all those 'little' coincidences are overlooked by you in your reply.

Let's stick to the facts, I'll leave eyewitness testimony to the birds. Truly, he might be lying, and there's no sense in muddling fact with stories.

-Cheney, without reason, usurped NORAD from the military months prior to 9-11 and had them stand down from intercepting the planes.

-Marvin Bush, head of Securacom, contracted to WTC

-Nearly all the concrete in the Towers was pulverized to dust the consistency of talcum powder in the air. That required far more energy than floors falling a few feet or even a thousand feet.

-The mushrooming of the Towers into dust clouds three to five times the diameter of each Tower before the destruction reached the ground cannot be explained by the falling of floors and damage to the core foundations.


__________


On the Jesus tip, get over yourself. Go do some research yourself, join the ranks, make a decision, don't look to me to 'trust'. Like I give a shit what some Aussie douchebag thinks about Jesus.

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Originally posted by Krypton God ain't gonna be blessin America for much longer if it continues to go on the current path...

i've always found this statement rather selfish.... what about "blessing" the rest of the world ? lol

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Originally posted by SiLveR_NrGy_985 i've always found this statement rather selfish.... what about "blessing" the rest of the world ? lol

this is true.... and the same got me slapped many a times when I was a child...

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Originally posted by {b.s.e.} -Nearly all the concrete in the Towers was pulverized to dust the consistency of talcum powder in the air. That required far more energy than floors falling a few feet or even a thousand feet. -The mushrooming of the Towers into dust clouds three to five times the diameter of each Tower before the destruction reached the ground cannot be explained by the falling of floors and damage to the core foundations.

care to show some evidence of these statements?

How much energy does it take to pulverize concrete to the consistency of talcum powder?

How did you benchmark this calculation? which ASTM / CSA standard did you use to carry out this test?

What, if any, knowledge do you posess with respect to behavioural characteristics of portland cement based concrete?

as for your mushroom argument. here is a simple experiment you can do in your own back yard to illustrate why these "mushroom clouds are perfectly logical.

Take a bag of portland cement or fly ash or talcum powder. spread it over the ground in an area of lets say 4' x 4' now take a 4' by 4' piece of 1/2" plywood and drop it straight down over the fine powder and observe the radial cloud of powder that is ejected by the air being squeezed out between the plywood and the ground as it falls.

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Originally posted by {b.s.e.} Let's stick to the facts, I'll leave eyewitness testimony to the birds. Truly, he might be lying, and there's no sense in muddling fact with stories. -Cheney, without reason, usurped NORAD from the military months prior to 9-11 and had them stand down from intercepting the planes.

Since you want to talk about facts, can you please post links to evidence that proves that Cheney took over control of NORAD prior to 9/11 that are not from tinfoil hat wearing truther conspiracy theory websites? I'm talking legitimate news sources here, because I sure as hell can't find any.

Also, who was in control of NORAD on 9/11/01 makes absolutely no difference. At that time NORAD did not monitor flights that start and end in the USA, only those coming to the US from outside of the country. All hijacked flights originated within the continental US. Because NORAD did not monitor those flights they could only do what air traffic controllers could tell them to do. In the early hours of the 9/11 hijackings there was much confusion with conflicting reports coming in and don't forget that the hijackers had turned off the planes transponders so the air traffic controllers had no idea where the planes were to even ask NORAD to vector in fighters. When the controllers finally picked up the jet heading to D.C. they asked NORAD to intercept and fighters were launched with shoot down orders however they arrived too late.

So maybe you should check again what the definition of a "fact" is.

In regards to Cheney and NORAD,



http://www.9-11commission.gov/archi..._2003-05-23.htm

NATIONAL COMMISSION ON TERRORIST ATTACKS UPON THE UNITED STATES
Public Hearing
Friday, May 23, 2003
Hart Senate Office Building
Room 216
Washington, DC

[i]......excerpt........

[[the following Cheney stand down order is confused for a shoot down order]]

MR. HAMILTON: We thank you for that. I wanted to focus just a moment on the Presidential Emergency Operating Center. You were there for a good part of the day. I think you were there with the vice president. And when you had that order given, I think it was by the president, that authorized the shooting down of commercial aircraft that were suspected to be controlled by terrorists, were you there when that order was given?

MR. MINETA: No, I was not. I was made aware of it during the time that the airplane coming into the Pentagon. There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?" Well, at the time I didn't know what all that meant. And --

MR. HAMILTON: The flight you're referring to is the --

MR. MINETA: The flight that came into the Pentagon.

MR. HAMILTON: The Pentagon, yeah.


In regards to Marvin Bush: http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0204-06.htm

[excerpt]
George W. Bush's brother was on the board of directors of a company providing electronic security for the World Trade Center, Dulles International Airport and United Airlines, according to public records. The company was backed by an investment firm, the Kuwait-American Corp., also linked for years to the Bush family.

The security company, formerly named Securacom and now named Stratesec, is in Sterling, Va.. Its CEO, Barry McDaniel, said the company had a ``completion contract" to handle some of the security at the World Trade Center ``up to the day the buildings fell down."
____________
BYU Physics Prof Finds Thermate in WTC Physical Samples
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/06/341238.shtml



and the cycle continues...

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