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Another moral story out of Israel!

Hey guys.... look how good and nice Israeli soldiers are! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY

http://news.independent.co.uk/world...sp?story=396369

Mmmm yes I don't know what's up with that
They seem to becoming cold blooded, and I know a personal experience about that but I rather not say it, it just sucks though.

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Originally posted by LiquidX Mmmm yes I don't know what's up with that They seem to becoming cold blooded, and I know a personal experience about that but I rather not say it, it just sucks though.

you're so right, how dare those israeli's intentionally targeting children and peace activists, shooting and destroying civilian houses that IDF is one evil entity all they care about and want is death and destruction, they're just bullying around for fun

Re: Another moral story out of Israel!

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Hey guys.... look how good and nice Israeli soldiers are! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY http://news.independent.co.uk/world...sp?story=396369

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www.jpost.com Apr. 12, 2003 Initial IDF report: Shot Palestinian activist may have fired first By JOEL LEYDEN In its initial report into the shooting of British pro-Palestinian activist Thom Hurndall in Gaza Friday, the IDF states: "At about 5 p.m. yesterday an IDF post on the Israeli-Egyptian border in an Israeli security-controlled zone identified a man, who appeared to be approximately 20 years old, wearing a combat uniform and carrying a weapon." The report further states: "The man opened fire at the IDF post and IDF forces returned fire using one bullet - and saw that the person carrying the weapon was injured from IDF gunfire. It should be noted that this was the only shooting incident reported in the immediate area." It was in this area where Hurndall, an International Solidarity Movement activist, was thought to be injured, the report concluded. The IDF states that this area has frequently been a source of attacks against IDF forces, including sniper fire, explosives and grenades. The ISM claimed that the activist was trying to help two children who were trapped in a crossfire when the Briton was shot in the head. A senior Israeli security source told the Jerusalem Post: "Shadi Sukiya, a senior member of the Islamic Jihad in Jenin who was involved in the planning of several thwarted terror suicide bombing attacks, was arrested by IDF troops while hiding in the offices of the International Solidarity Movement, " one month ago. Danny Seaman, a spokesperson for the Prime Minister's Office stated: "members of the ISM have been knowingly aiding and abetting terrorists and disrupting the activity of the IDF meant to prevent the murder of Israeli civilians." "Far from aiding peace, their behavior is encouraging the terrorist element in Palestinian society, " Seaman said. "Some of them are misguided and being cynically used by the Palestinians and many of them know exactly who they are supporting and what they're doing, and no country facing the terrorist threat of the proportions such as Israel can tolerate this kind of behavior," Seaman concluded. According to a senior security government source, the International Solidarity Movement receives funds from both the Palestinian Authority and Hamas.

Cyrus, in case you didnt know. the IDF does not tell its soldiers to shoot at random people. there are clearly defined rules of engagement.

Re: Re: Another moral story out of Israel!

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Originally posted by Izzy Cyrus, in case you didnt know. the IDF does not tell its soldiers to shoot at random people. there are clearly defined rules of engagement.

The article you just posted just proved to me once again, that everyone is a potential threat by the IDF. Nevertheless, it is the Jeruselem Post that published your post. I might as well post an article from a palestinian source and take that as a fact

Natural selection at work. Nature is truly brilliant, isn't she?

Re: Re: Re: Another moral story out of Israel!

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Originally posted by Cyrus King The article you just posted just proved to me once again, that everyone is a potential threat by the IDF. Nevertheless, it is the Jeruselem Post that published your post. I might as well post an article from a palestinian source and take that as a fact

so now not only do you dissmiss the IDF is a barbaric blood thirsty army, now you're also implying israel has a state run press. i pride myself knowing that the media in israel abide to the same journalistic ethics that many of the other western countries have. the jerusalem post is probably the most un-biased media source in the whole of the middle east, even sometimes leaning to the left (when considering op eds and stuff).

arbiter -

Re: Re: Re: Re: Another moral story out of Israel!

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Originally posted by Izzy the media in israel abide to the same journalistic ethics that many of the other western countries have.

that's not saying very much mate! may as well say that the politicians in texas are every bit as honourable as the ones in washington. you might be right, but that isn't helping your case!

media bias is simply a fact, whether it's in israel, the US, canada, britain, or anywhere else. even your local city paper is biased against other local cities.

As for this particular article, i am inclined to believe the first source, that the man was wearing brightly coloured clothes. I don't believe that he was wearing a combat uniform and carrying a weapon, what would a peace activist do that for?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Another moral story out of Israel!

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Originally posted by Izzy the jerusalem post is probably the most un-biased media source in the whole of the middle east, even sometimes leaning to the left (when considering op eds and stuff). arbiter -

Ohhh....fuuuuck...getting faint!!
I think I'm having a heart attack....
I'm laughing so hard at this joke, I'm having a heart attack.

That was a joke, right?

if the peace activist dont want to get shot, tell them to go f*#!in home, and get out of the danger zone. if your standing in a war zone your chances of getting hurt increase. get the f out of there if u dont want to get killed

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Originally posted by tranzformer if the peace activist dont want to get shot, tell them to go f*#!in home, and get out of the danger zone. if your standing in a war zone your chances of getting hurt increase. get the f out of there if u dont want to get killed

Yeah, but there's Palestinian citizens living there IN THEIR HOMES WHICH THEY RIGHTFULLY OWN!! Are you gonna tell them to get the f outta there, too? Somebody has to stand up for them.

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Originally posted by tranzformer if the peace activist dont want to get shot, tell them to go f*#!in home, and get out of the danger zone. if your standing in a war zone your chances of getting hurt increase. get the f out of there if u dont want to get killed

I fully agree with you on this statement. The activist should have known the danger, and he paid with his life. However, I think this is rather like telling a rape vicitim that she shouldn't have been wearing a short skirt and walking alone.

I believe that an individual is responsible for the predictable consequences of their own actions. However, i do not believe that those predictable consequences are always right. I think this activist had the same right to be there as a woman has to wear a short skirt.

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Originally posted by Izzy you're so right, how dare those israeli's intentionally targeting children and peace activists, shooting and destroying civilian houses that IDF is one evil entity all they care about and want is death and destruction, they're just bullying around for fun

Well, you are putting words into my mouth there he.

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Originally posted by LiquidX Well, you are putting words into my mouth there he.

I think its silly to expect the IDF to care about human rights. How can one expect it to when the state that it protects was founded in the blood of another people who were forced to leave their ancestral homes for refugee camps despite having done absoloutly nothing wrong.

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Originally posted by brainfried I think its silly to expect the IDF to care about human rights. How can one expect it to when the state that it protects was founded in the blood of another people who were forced to leave their ancestral homes for refugee camps despite having done absoloutly nothing wrong.

Exactly

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another moral story out of Israel!

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Originally posted by cougar23 Ohhh....fuuuuck...getting faint!! I think I'm having a heart attack.... I'm laughing so hard at this joke, I'm having a heart attack. That was a joke, right?

a joke? it sure wasnt intended as one. even though johnsmith is right in that everysingle media source has a bias even down to your local newspaper, that still doesnt mean that the media in israel is a tool of the government. i dare you to name another media source in the mid-east which has the same journalistic integrity and freedom of press that the israeli ones enjoy

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Originally posted by brianfried I think its silly to expect the IDF to care about human rights. How can one expect it to when the state that it protects was founded in the blood of another people who were forced to leave their ancestral homes for refugee camps despite having done absoloutly nothing wrong.

to think that the IDF doesnt care about human rights is absurd. i dont know where you get off saying that. its not easy being an army confronted with an enemy who uses ambulances for military purposes, an enemy who shoots out of homes where families live in, an enemy who disguses themselves as pregenant women, an enemy who sees every single israeli as a potential target.

i dare you to find me solid evidence that palestinians were forced to leave their ancestral homes for refugee camps by the israel government. how do you explain the current palestinians living inside israel (and yes they exsist - there are over a million arabs living in israel)? legaly jews were allowed to immagrate to palestine many fairly bought land there from the arabs themselves. then, legaly, the jews were allowed to have a country (UN partition plan). during the war of independence no one was forced to move anywhere, however many refugees fled the area and fighting. most never wanted to return. they then found themselves in either neighbouring arab countries or in the disputed territories.

Oh yes, back to how wonderful and saintly the IDF are. That peace activist learned first hand what the arabs have always known about the IDF


"a man was lying in two pieces. Their was a woman who was pregnant and I could see the arm and leg of her unborn baby poking out of her stomach. There was a man who had shrapnel in his head. He was not dead but you could see a piece of metal in his neck, like he'd had his throuat cut. He told his daughter to come to help him and lift him up. And I heard her say; "Wait a minute, IM trying to put my brother together he's in two pieces" There was another brother holding a child in his arms. The child had no head..

Fawzieh Saad Survivor of the 18th April 1996 Qana massacre

"Its a war, in a war, these things happen... Its just a bunch of Arabs. Why are you taking it so hard?

Israeli army Sargaent 'Y' whose artillery battery shelled the Qana refugees, quoted in the Israeli weekly Kol Ha'ir,

10 May 1996

Taken from Pity the Nation by Robert Fisk.

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Originally posted by rupert "Its a war, in a war, these things happen... Its just a bunch of Arabs. Why are you taking it so hard? Israeli army Sargaent 'Y' whose artillery battery shelled the Qana refugees, quoted in the Israeli weekly Kol Ha'ir, 10 May 1996 Taken from Pity the Nation by Robert Fisk.

Disgusting piece of IDF shit.

I hope the acid in his stomach ends up burning through his intestines as maggots eat him alive.

I wonder what his reaction would be if someone told him not to take the holocaust "so hard".

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Originally posted by brainfried How can one expect it to when the state that it protects was founded in the blood of another people who were forced to leave their ancestral homes for refugee camps despite having done absoloutly nothing wrong.

Oh, you must be talking about the Jews being exiled from the land of Israel in 72 AC!

You weren't? Oh, silly me....

Speaking of refugees ... here's an interesting article:

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Bad as the situation became for Jews in Muslim countries with the approach and explosion of World War II, the 1948 war in Palestine (the Israeli War of Independence) made things infinitely worse. The surrounding Arab states declared war - en masse - against the tiny strip of land that proclaimed itself the new State of Israel in 1948.[46a] Hostility towards the Jews of the Mizrachim Diaspora got much worse as a result. The Egyptian, Syrian, Lebanese, Jordanian and Saudi armies and Iraqi and Palestinian irregulars did not invade Israel because it had attacked or threatened those countries, but because Israel had chosen to *exist*. By doing so it had cancelled the dhimma on a grand scale.[46b] When the dhimma is cancelled, jihad resumes. Thus in 1947 the Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini issued a fatwa: "I declare a holy war, my Moslem brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all!"[47] Arab leaders were just as violent in addressing the non-Arab world. Unlike today, they did not claim they were the victims. They made no effort to win over world opinion because they expected to wipe out the Jews quickly. In their public statements they boasted of the mayhem that was to come: Thus, Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League, promised: "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."[48] They made no effort to convince the world they were responding to a Jewish attack. In addressing the UN Security Council in April 1948, Jamal Husseini, Spokesperson for the Mufti's Arab Higher Committee, said: "The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight."[49] When the the Jews announced the formation of a state of Israel, the Arab armies and paramilitaries attacked Jewish *communities* - that is, they attacked *civilians*. Since they made no pretense that they were acting in self-defense, their attack was illegal under international law; it's only rationale was that the attackers hated Jews and refused to accept the existence of a Jewish state. Launching a war because one dislikes the other side and wants to destroy it is the very definition of a war of aggression. And in international law, launching a war of aggression is itself a war crime, for it makes possible all other war crimes. The return to a state of jihad made the situation of Jews living in Arab countries extremely dangerous even if they had nothing to do with the Zionist movement, which was European in origin. As sociologist Shlomo Swirski writes in �Israel: The Oriental Majority�:[50] [Start Swirski Quote] ��the military confrontation between the Jews in Palestine and the Palestinian Arabs and the armies of the Arab states in 1947-49 created an impossible climate for the Jews living throughout the Middle East and North Africa. Within a short period of time, they evacuated en masse to the new state of Israel. Whole communities were transplanted - most of the 130,000 Jews of Iraq, the 45,000 Jews of Yemen, and the 35,000 of Libya - as well as substantial parts of other communities, from Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia in the west to Iran in the east. From 1948 to 1956, a total of some 450,000 Jews arrived in Israel from Asia and Africa, compared to 360,000 Jews from Europe and America.� [End Swirski Quote] So the Oriental Jews didn�t simply migrate to Israel; they *fled* the countries where their ancestors had lived for a hundred generations or more.[51] They lost virtually everything they owned. The numbers cited above are staggering. As hundreds of thousands of Oriental Jews fled, countries which once had large Jewish communities became virtually Judenfrei. And according to a Library of Congress study, �By the early 1970s, the number of Israelis of African-Asian origin outnumbered European or American Jews.�[52] In 1985, the Oriental Jews were �the majority of the Israeli Jewish population - 43.3% - of first and second-generation Israelis�[including non-Jews]�[53] In fact, �until the recent Russian immigration, the majority in Israel was the 900,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries, and their millions of children� Mizrachim are still today 50% of the Jewish population.�[54] Thus, the general perception that Arabs are the only refugees produced by the Arab-Jewish conflicts since 1947 is simply wrong. The difference is that Jewish refugees who fled to Israel - and who had everything taken from them in the process - became Israeli citizens (or citizens of other countries). By way of contrast, Palestinian refugees were refused citizenship by every Arab state except Jordan. And this means that� **The Arab States, Not Israel, Are Responsible For The Palestinian Refugee Problem** Why didn't the Arab states let these Palestinians be citizens? To what end? Answer: to keep the refugees as a festering political sore that could - and still can - be used against the State of Israel. Whether the policy towards these refugees is cruel or benign, the attitude is the same: they are denied citizenship so they can be maintained as a political issue, to put Israel on the defensive. Consider the examples of Lebanon and Syria. The following quotes are from the Washington Report On Middle East Affairs, which is strongly biased in favor of Arab leaders� view of the Palestinian conflict. That bias makes their words especially credible on this point:[55] [Start Quote From Washington Report] �Many Palestinian refugees in Lebanon still live in squalid camps�After more than half a century in exile, their situation remains precarious. Without citizenship, or even the same options as guestworkers from Egypt or Sri Lanka, the Palestinians cannot work in many occupations. Nor do they receive assistance from the cash-strapped Lebanese government. In some cases, residents are unable even to repair damaged houses because they cannot �import� building materials into the camps. Because Beirut refuses to accept the de facto resettlement of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, the refugees have never been granted citizenship or residency rights by the Lebanese government, which wants to keep the pressure on Israel to permit the refugees� return. This policy, however, has caused hardship for many Palestinians.� [End Quote From Washington Report] So Lebanon plays politics with the unfortunate lives of these Palestinians. According to Washington Report, the Syrian government�s policy is more benign, but it has the same political objective: [Back To Washington Report] �Circumstances for Palestinians just across the border in Syria are remarkably different. According to Angela Williams, director of UNRWA in Syria, the key reason is the Syrian government's official policy of hospitality toward the refugees. "They are not faced with the kind of restrictions they have in Lebanon," Williams explained. "Palestinians have the same access as Syrians to government services, education, government hospitals and employment. Here they can even purchase one parcel of domestic property for their own use." The extension of rights to Palestinian refugees in Syria stems from the government's philosophy that, rather than standing in the way of political aspirations, improved living conditions help to build up Palestinians� ability to achieve a final settlement and return home when they are able. Although *they don�t have citizenship, cannot vote and cannot purchase farmland,* [my emphasis] Palestinians are fully integrated into Syrian society.� [End Quote From Washington Report] How can one be �fully integrated� into a society in which one cannot vote, be a citizen, or, if one is a farmer, start a farm? The answer is that one cannot, and that makes sense, because the Syrians want the Palestinians to �achieve a final settlement and return home.� Syria�s somewhat more benign policy follows their philosophy that a healthy and well-educated (but all the same politically-in-limbo and second-class) Palestinian is a sharper geopolitical weapon. We may contrast these attitudes with those of the Israeli government. Israel�s 1948 Declaration of Independence includes the following: �WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.�[56] UN Resolution 194, which was acceptable to the Israelis, stated in point 11 that, ��refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property�� This resolution was *unanimously rejected* by the Arabs.[57] The perception, common in some circles, that the Israelis are to blame for the Palestinian refugee crisis will therefore not withstand historical scrutiny. I summarize the relevant facts: 1) The post-World War II military confrontations between Jews and Arabs began when the 1947 UN partition plan �was immediately opposed by the [Palestinian] Arabs who...attacked Jews throughout Palestine as the British withdrew.�[58] 2) The surrounding Arab states followed through with an unprovoked and simultaneous declaration of war on Israel in 1948. 3) The anti-Semitism of the Arab states, heightened by the war against Israel, is what made the living conditions of the Mizrachim Diaspora so dangerous that they fled en masse to Israel. Thus, the Arab states *caused* a Jewish refugee crisis that the Israeli state then proceeded to absorb. 4) The Arabs lost the 1948 war with Israel. The resulting Palestinian refugees were not given citizenship by the Arab countries that had created the refugee crisis by attacking Israel. (The exception is Jordan). The above list speaks for itself. One has to argue against it in order to lay the blame for the Palestinian refugee crisis on the Israelis. [46a] To get an idea just how tiny, we have posted two maps. One compares Israel to the countries of the Middle East and North Africa. The other map shows that including Gaza and the West Bank, Israel is almost as big as Vancouver Island. Compared to the Arab world: http://www.iris.org.il/sizemaps/arabwrld.htm Compared to Vancouver Island: http://www.iris.org.il/sizemaps/vancouv.htm [46b] "The Zionist militias gained the upper hand over the Palestinians through skill and pluck, aided considerably by intra-Arab rivalries. Israel's declaration of independence on May 14, 1948, was quickly recognized by the United States , the Soviet Union , and many other governments, fulfilling the Zionist dream of an internationally approved Jewish state. Neither the UN nor the world leaders, however, could spare Israel from immediate invasion by the armies of five Arab states�Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, and Transjordan (now Jordan)�and within a few days, the state's survival appeared to be at stake." "Israel." Encyclop�dia Britannica 2003 Encyclop�dia Britannica Online. 16 Jan, 2003 http://www.search.eb.com/eb/article?eu=109507 [47] Leonard J. Davis and M. Decter (eds.). Myths and facts 1982; a Concise Record of the Arab-Israeli Conflict (Washington DC: near east report, 1982), p. 199 [48] Howard M Sachar, A History of Israel (New York: Knopf, 1979), p. 333 [49] Security Council Official Records, S/Agenda/58, (April 16, 1948), p. 19 [50] Swirski, Shlomo. 1989. Israel: The Oriental Majority. London & New Jersey: Zed Books Ltd. (pp. 3-4) [51] For a more personal account of the plight of the Mizrahim, go to http://www.loolwa.com/crisis.html [52] �ISRAEL A Country Study,� Federal Research Division Library of Congress. Edited by Helen Chapin Metz. Research Completed December 1988 http://memory.loc.gov/frd/cs/iltoc.html Consult the chapter titled �POPULATION.� [53] Swirski, Shlomo. 1989. Israel: The Oriental Majority. London & New Jersey: Zed Books Ltd. (p.3) [54] A MIZRAHI PERSPECTIVE ON THE CURRENT MIDDLE EAST CRISIS, by Loolwa Khazoom; http://www.loolwa.com/crisis.html [55] Palestinian Refugees in Lebanon and Syria Face Different, Uncertain Futures. Dec 2000, Vol. 19 Issue 9, p26; Washington Report on Middle East Affairs; by Fecci, JoMarie [56] Text of the Israeli Declaration of Independence: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Hi...c_of_Indep.html [57] �The Palestinian Refugees�, by Mitchell Bard http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/refugees.html [58] �on November 29, 1947, the UN General Assembly voted to divide British-ruled Palestine into two states, one Jewish and the other Arab. This decision was immediately opposed by the Arabs who, under the ostensible leadership of Hajj AmYn al-SusaynY , the grand mufti of Jerusalem, attacked Jews throughout Palestine as the British withdrew.� �Israel� Encyclop�dia Britannica http://www.search.eb.com/eb/article?eu=109507 [Accessed September 23, 2002].

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Originally posted by rupert Oh yes, back to how wonderful and saintly the IDF are. That peace activist learned first hand what the arabs have always known about the IDF "a man was lying in two pieces. Their was a woman who was pregnant and I could see the arm and leg of her unborn baby poking out of her stomach. There was a man who had shrapnel in his head. He was not dead but you could see a piece of metal in his neck, like he'd had his throuat cut. He told his daughter to come to help him and lift him up. And I heard her say; "Wait a minute, IM trying to put my brother together he's in two pieces" There was another brother holding a child in his arms. The child had no head.. Fawzieh Saad Survivor of the 18th April 1996 Qana massacre "Its a war, in a war, these things happen... Its just a bunch of Arabs. Why are you taking it so hard? Israeli army Sargaent 'Y' whose artillery battery shelled the Qana refugees, quoted in the Israeli weekly Kol Ha'ir, 10 May 1996 Taken from Pity the Nation by Robert Fisk.

the incedent you talk of happened during the grapes of wrath operation in lebanon during 1996. an artillery shell was accedintely launched into a refugee camp. there were conflicting reports as to whether or not hizbollah were shooting out of that camp, but regardless i agree the situation needed to be handled more carefully. however just because of an accedinent or a mistaken judgement you can not conclude that the israeli governmenr or the IDF seek to intentially kill arabs. nor do they put the innocents value of life lower then that of their own.

and about that quote. you quoted it as being a sergent, do you know how low that is on rank scale? pfff come on. he doesnt even have much of any commanding role. he is one regular amoung many, i bet i can find racists even in the american and australian armies, so freaking what? thus you cant use him as conclusion to drive the point that israels want to see all arabs dead.

btw nice article occrider. i applaud the fact that you go out and research a topic and come to your own conclusion, regardless of which side it falls on.

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Originally posted by Izzy btw nice article occrider. i applaud the fact that you go out and research a topic and come to your own conclusion, regardless of which side it falls on.

I've tried to get people to read that article countless times... Hope it works

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Originally posted by oDrori I've tried to get people to read that article countless times... Hope it works

Whoops didn't know you posted it before. Am I leeching off your sources?

Re: Another moral story out of Israel!

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Hey guys.... look how good and nice Israeli soldiers are! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY http://news.independent.co.uk/world...sp?story=396369

I'm gonna start posting every suicide bombing that occurs.

Re: Re: Another moral story out of Israel!

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Originally posted by Cracka-X I'm gonna start posting every suicide bombing that occurs.

This incident has nothing to do with Palestinians who, correct me if I'm wrong, are the main executers of suicide bombings. When a peace-activist puts on an explosive vest, then feel free to post. Otherwise, it's just not applicable.

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