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Posted by raveanddie on May-03-2003 10:57:

Variations Of Mixing????

Hi Guys,

I came across someone who mentioned that ferry corsten uses 32nd beat mixing technique ... and also some form of mixing call illusion?

Can someone tell me what kind of mixing techniques are these? And how many mixing techniques are there?

I believe 32nd beat mixing could be that you kill the outgoing track on the 32nd beat?

im a newbie to mixing ... could someone care to enlighten me ?

cheers

Posted by Tiger777 on May-03-2003 12:56:

There are an infinite numer of mixing techniques...
HERE is a link to a site that explains some techniques, also check the Beat pattern section.

What I usually do is beatkilling or breakdownmixing

Posted by raveanddie on May-03-2003 18:40:

thanks for the link dude.

but will someone explain to me what illusion mixing is? .. how about 32nd beat mixing? .

Posted by Nabistai on May-03-2003 19:54:

quote:
Originally posted by raveanddie
thanks for the link dude.

but will someone explain to me what illusion mixing is? .. how about 32nd beat mixing? .

I assume 32nd beat mixing is mixing in the 32 first beats of the new song into the 32 last beats of the outmixing song. Which means very long mixes, which is usually used in progressive trance and not uplifting. Could be wrong thow.

Have no idea about the illusion mixing.

Posted by hey cheggy on May-04-2003 05:24:

32 beat mixing would be making your major changes every 32 beats so that the changes happens in phrase. It makes the transition flow a lot better. The mix should last more than 32 beats though. It depends on the track but something around 128 beats and over would be normal. Anything under 64 beats is very short

Posted by ScratchMaster on May-04-2003 06:48:

Heya Rave,
Any discussion bout mixing techniques usually ends up really looong because there are so many things so talk bout.But I'll try to keep this as short as possible.

99% of Electronic Dance Music is made in sets of 32 beats.This means that in almost every track,something will either be added or removed from a track every 32 beats.If not there will atleast be a sample or something.
Now while mixing if you release your track at the start of a 32 beat set then both the songs will have something added or removed every 32 beats and the mix will sound very good.This is called mixing on the bar[since most music is made up or divided into bars]
Your mixes should generally last atleast 128 beats[32 x 4]which is bout a minute.

Not only does Ferry Corsten use this technique but almost every Dj in the world who has some idea bout finer mixing uses this technique.It is one of the basic steps towards better mixing.
If any of this is unclear then lemme know and I will explain with an example.

As for illusion mixing I am just as curios as the rest of you.

Posted by raveanddie on May-04-2003 16:22:

thank you very much scratchmaster ... nice nick you got there. must be really good in mixing i presume?

mixing for about 128beats? .. ah ... i suck at it real bad .. i only can keep up with about 32beats before things start to go haywire ... the music will start to clash with ingoing and outgoing.

how do you usually bring in your incoming track? .. heard of the usual bass eq off ... how about hihats?(treble) ... how do the top djs usually most of the time(and i mean most of the time) bring in their tracks? .... i know different music has different ways of matching with the live music .. but whats the general nice rule should i use to bring in the incoming tracks so that it will sound nice?

Posted by webbie on May-04-2003 17:25:

It often works good by bringin the treble in highest and having the
bass on quite low, getting that new hihat to work its way in.
Then depending on the track increasing mid or high as it goes.

But as you mentioned, its to dependant on which tune it is.
Someones fit better if you just kick it in with a huge bass and
sometimes its just the mids and some treble that does the trick.

Posted by Tony Morello on May-04-2003 18:49:

there really isn't any rules to mixing
as long as it's mixed and it sounds pleasing, how you do it is up to you
you don't have to and really can't follow a formula when mixing
otherwise your mixes become boring

like i've said before, mixing is an artform, express yourself
have fun with it
and above all else, practice

you really can't learn a lot from reading a message-board
you actually have to turn on your decks and play around

record every time you mix, then listen to it later... find out what you like and don't like, then change what you don't like

i know it doesn't make any sense to you now, but it will

many n00bs have asked the same questions you're asking right now
we told them to just practice and they'll get it

and a couple months later they finally get it

Posted by Tiger777 on May-04-2003 20:10:

What shockwav sayd about the recording part is VERY usefull. I mean, when you listen to it, you'll immediately hear what sounds wrong. After listening to the recording, you should think of a better way to mix them. When you found a way, try again, record it again, listen to it AGAIN and if it sounds better, you should proceed to the next track. This is the way to learn to mix. Also, what I did, was that I wrote down titles of tracks I was able to mix together, and every day the list became longer and longer. (now, when i hear those recordings again, i think that it sounds awfull), but now after 6 months of practise, some tracks just won't fit in the mix...
But, 1 thing you should read about are beat patterns... Its about the placement and stuff, one of the only texts that is usefull
you should read it...
http://www.recess.co.uk/structure.html
good luck!

Posted by raaven on May-05-2003 03:48:

i usually do really long mixes. normally from a minute to two or more. the syle of most of my mixes is a variation of the 32beat style. I can't explain it. I just know and I do it. Sounds much smoother the way I'm doing things now. Some might say the key is off but the tracks flow a hell of a lot better. Maybe I'm just weird. Who knows.

Oh and I don't think you can learn from reading. If anything it'd just confuse you more.

It's all about learning for yourself and teaching yourself. That way you can create your own style and such...

Posted by raveanddie on May-06-2003 18:15:

hi guys.

THANK YOU ALL FOR REPLYING... i certainly learnt something. looks like i will be off to my cmx ... hehehe ..

most of the time when i bring in tracks, i usually put the incoming mid to 20% ... looks like the reason for my clashings all has to do more with the treble which is at the full ...

guess i will have to learn ....
hence, there are no shortcuts to any place worth going to ...

Posted by Tony Morello on May-07-2003 00:16:

quote:
Originally posted by raveanddie
hi guys.

THANK YOU ALL FOR REPLYING... i certainly learnt something. looks like i will be off to my cmx ... hehehe ..

most of the time when i bring in tracks, i usually put the incoming mid to 20% ... looks like the reason for my clashings all has to do more with the treble which is at the full ...

guess i will have to learn ....
hence, there are no shortcuts to any place worth going to ...

yup
just keep practicing
try new things, play around
it's really the only way you'll learn

Posted by Alccode on May-07-2003 02:26:

Psh.

I use Supah-Maximizing-Ultra-Omega-Mixing-Style!

Defeat all of you mixing style !!! [complete with accent]

KYAAAAAA

.
.
.
.

I'm ok now... don't worry.... Haha, but seriously, this thread kinda struck me as funny.. "mixing style" like "fighting style".

"I use the ancient mixing style of BEATMATCH and TRANSITION of the Zen master Koku."

"As for me, my mixing style is a unique family style passed on from father to son for generations, consisting of BEATMATCH and TRANSITION."

"The mixing style that I employ has been faithful to me all my life. I learned it when I was training under a hermit DJ deep in the Himalayas. His secret was BEATMATCH and TRANSITION, which I have utterly mastered to lay waste to my foes."

Ok, just wanted to sound a little sarcastic... When doing tricks during transitions, it's dangerous to label it a "Mixing Style" because all you're doing is just being a little creative during your transition.

Like my "warriors" above, every mixing "style" (heh) is just BEATMATCH and TRANSITION. Doesn't matter if you cut this eq here or that eq there, or switch bass eq's at an instant, or scratch it in, or make your transition last one minute or two minutes, they're all just TRANSITIONS.

("Illusion Mixing"...lmao)

The real deal with DJ'ing is reading the crowd and knowing what to play when, not mixing.

IMHO here!>

Posted by Jah on May-07-2003 03:27:

couldnt agree more :P especially with trance you need to know how to program what where...

quote:
Originally posted by Alccode
The real deal with DJ'ing is reading the crowd and knowing what to play when, not mixing.

IMHO here!>

Posted by Greedy on May-07-2003 05:34:

mixing is not always about turning down the bass and cranking up the highs when bringing a tune in. I often find that when you concentrate too much on the eq's, your attention goes away from your beat matching. If you wanna be a good DJ, be able to listen to the track mixing in and concentrate on phrasing. Once you learn this, this could help you recover from unfortunate things like, someone bumping into the tables and missing your cue.

Posted by ScratchMaster on May-07-2003 09:41:

Gotta agree with Shochwave.
Practice does make you perfect and there are no rules to mixing.
And recording yourself does help.I never recorded anything I played cause I thought my mixing was spot on.But I have done it a few times now & found that you learn a lot by listening to yourself later.....maybe not bout beat matching but bout whether you brought in the next track too fast or whether your EQ's were ok.

Accolade reading the crowd and placing your songs right[flow] are very important but it isn't as important as mixing IMO.
You gotta learn how to beat match flawlessly first and then start thinking bout reading the crowd and thinking bout the flow of your set.
You cant get to a BLACK BELT without learning the moves of a WHITE BELT[hermit DJ from the Himalayas must've told you this ]
Even if your flow is good and you read the crowd like a book;if you cant beat match its no use.

Thanks for the compliment on the nick Raven but it really dosen't have much to do with my mixing skills.I play only on CDs since there isn't a record store in my country and vinyl has'nt caught on as yet - and scratching is a vinyl thing.
I call myself ScratchMaster cause I like to "scratch" my nuts for a bit when I hit the sack at night.

But I do think I'm pretty rocko when it comes to mixing on CD's.The vinyl is picking over here so pretty soon I should move on from Nads To Records.

Nice to hear you have a CMX.It is a fantastic pitch.
Keep practicing.

Still dying to know what Illusion Mixing is.Anyone?????????

Posted by Hootchis on May-07-2003 12:48:

I have one last question to add to this thread? I know all you guys talk about where the mid/high/low's should be while mixing in track, but lets say for instance you have the cross fader in the middle and both volume channels at full, with the mid/high/low's at around 80% on both channels (just an example). Even if you have the beats completely matched, sometimes it just doesn't sound right, and if the pitch is just off it's impossible (or at least seems impossible) to tell where you are going wrong. So i guess my question is, does eq's play a huge role in the beatmatching process or is it just my mixing that just isn't up to par yet? I'm relatively new to the game in the overal picture (1.5 months).

Posted by Alccode on May-07-2003 13:38:

quote:
Originally posted by ScratchMaster
Gotta agree with Shochwave.
Practice does make you perfect and there are no rules to mixing.
And recording yourself does help.I never recorded anything I played cause I thought my mixing was spot on.But I have done it a few times now & found that you learn a lot by listening to yourself later.....maybe not bout beat matching but bout whether you brought in the next track too fast or whether your EQ's were ok.

Accolade reading the crowd and placing your songs right[flow] are very important but it isn't as important as mixing IMO.
You gotta learn how to beat match flawlessly first and then start thinking bout reading the crowd and thinking bout the flow of your set.
You cant get to a BLACK BELT without learning the moves of a WHITE BELT[hermit DJ from the Himalayas must've told you this ]
Even if your flow is good and you read the crowd like a book;if you cant beat match its no use.

Haha! Nice one @ hermit DJ joke!

ScratchMaster and Busy Child, what you're saying is right, but it falls under the category of TRANSITION. When I say "transition" I implicitly mean PROPER transition.

"Proper Transition? Is there any other kind?" (hehe )

And the answer is no.

That means taking into account phrasing, beatmatching, gain levels, the clashing of harmonics, etc.

Of course, that has to be mastered before you can read the crowd and do all that good stuff. But if you can't do the transition, then why are you in front of the crowd in the first place?

[Warning - begin RANT]

It's a natural transition (no pun intended) from beginner to Club DJ, like ScratchMaster said. Thus my little joke on Warrior DJ's was to show the ridiculousness of those DJ's like Ferry Corsten who pull things out of their ass like "Illusion Mixing," which is one of the stupidest things I've heard. What the hell is "Illusion Mixing" anyway? (rhetorical question) People have been mixing for years, and especially with our "house-type 4/4" music, there is not a lot of variety!!! How could he possibly have "invented" a "new" mixing "style"?? Does he mix in "3D" or something?? (Also a ridiculous statement)

At most, he adds in an effect during the transition, or a "wooshing" noise or something lame like that, so you have the "feel" like you're in an "illusion." Of course this is conjecture, but you get my drift.

The point is that whatever Ferry, or anyone else for that matter, does during their mix to spruce it up - first of all, props to them, it's awesome to make a transition unique - whatever they do, in the end, their mix is just a Mix. A Unique Mix, yeah. A Special Mix, sure. But not an "Illusion Mix."

So I'm showing that this fad nowadays (in every aspect of life) to label things with fancy names, which don't mean anything and just serve to make whatever you're labelling look cool and "unique" in a bid to garner more cash or sell your product more - is stupid and useless.

All it does is show that whatever you're trying to sell (in this case your DJ'ing skills), cannot stand on its own merits and thus you felt the need to add in a ridiculously-sounding "cool" name to appeal to the masses.

"Heeeeyyy...! What are you implying? That Ferry sucks?"

Hmm...didn't think of that, but maybe he does, if he feels the need to say "Illusion Mixing."

Again, IMHO.

[end RANT]

P.S. great discussion, I really like this thread!

P.P.S. It is entirely possible that Ferry is totally unaware of the meaning of the "Empty Name" (as in there is nothing behind the name, it's just a stupid label) trend nowadays, and innocently called his whatever-he-does "Illusion Mixing." But now I'm really interested in finding out just what this is, if for no other reason than to laugh.

Posted by Alccode on May-07-2003 13:41:

quote:
Originally posted by Hootchis
I have one last question to add to this thread? I know all you guys talk about where the mid/high/low's should be while mixing in track, but lets say for instance you have the cross fader in the middle and both volume channels at full, with the mid/high/low's at around 80% on both channels (just an example). Even if you have the beats completely matched, sometimes it just doesn't sound right, and if the pitch is just off it's impossible (or at least seems impossible) to tell where you are going wrong. So i guess my question is, does eq's play a huge role in the beatmatching process or is it just my mixing that just isn't up to par yet? I'm relatively new to the game in the overal picture (1.5 months).

Hehe you answered yourself there, though you might not be aware of it. (i.e., "I know all you guys talk about where the mid/high/low's should be while mixing in track")

The reason it sounds off is either due to "harmonics" - meaning that the notes of the songs do not go well together - or due to the clashing of the low/mid/high ranges (in any combination).

When people here are saying "work the eq" they mean do it in such a way that your incoming track doesn't clash with the playing track. There are many ways to do this, but one is to have all your eq's at 0 (or near) on the incoming, then slowly bring in one range as you close down the appropriate range on the master track. That way you will eventually bring in the whole track and, if you're good, the crowd won't notice until it's totally mixed.

Of course, this takes into account that your beatmatch is perfect etc.

Hope that helps!