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the one and only Matrix Reloaded plot discussion thread

the other thread is too big and it talks about opinions about the movie. so please don't close / delete this thread, we might have some intelligent discussion going on


i have a few questions:

1. do you think the previous 5 neos chose a different door? if the architect knows everything, and at one point he says that trinity is going to die, how can neo save her and prove the architect wrong? is this a cause and effect theme, same as in part 1, where neo broke the vase because the oracle warned him about it? does the architect tell neo exactly what he needs to hear to make the choice the architect wants him to make?

2. does anyone else think that my theory of people being plugged in into different versions of the matrix is right? i mean, the 5 matrices that existed before still exist, and that's where all those ghosts, twins, vampires, key makers, and meringovian (sp?) guys come from. after all, the meringovian guy knew that there were 5 other neo's before our final neo. it's not that easy to switch 3 billion people to a new version of the matrix, is it? maybe all the different matrices are somehow connected

3. does anyone else think that neo might be a machine? we are shown all this great struggle between humans & machines from the humans side, but what if there were machines on the other side which had the possibility of choice, which could be completely independent of the mainfraime? agent smith, the virus, for example. if this is true, then it gives the movie a whole new direction.

Re: the one and only Matrix Reloaded plot discussion thread

quote:

Originally posted by whiskers the other thread is too big and it talks about opinions about the movie. so please don't close / delete this thread, we might have some intelligent discussion going on i have a few questions: 1. do you think the previous 5 neos chose a different door? if the architect knows everything, and at one point he says that trinity is going to die, how can neo save her and prove the architect wrong? is this a cause and effect theme, same as in part 1, where neo broke the vase because the oracle warned him about it? does the architect tell neo exactly what he needs to hear to make the choice the architect wants him to make?

they all went through the other others because zion kept getting rebuilt, and with neo going through the other door, he destroyed mainframe, remember? so matrix essentialy is done, all people connected to the matrix are dead (apparently, since thats what the architect said would happen if he walked through those doors)... trinity didn't die, well she did inside the matrix, but remember in the first matrix, neo died too, but then came back to life only becuase he realized that matrix is just code, and you can't really die in it if you rewrite the code, so thats what he did with trinity...

quote:

2. does anyone else think that my theory of people being plugged in into different versions of the matrix is right? i mean, the 5 matrices that existed before still exist, and that's where all those ghosts, twins, vampires, key makers, and meringovian (sp?) guys come from. after all, the meringovian guy knew that there were 5 other neo's before our final neo. it's not that easy to switch 3 billion people to a new version of the matrix, is it? maybe all the different matrices are somehow connected

there aren't 5 different matrices, just 6 different versions, and evolution of the matrix... thats why architect said they were getting really efficient at destroying zion every time...

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3. does anyone else think that neo might be a machine? we are shown all this great struggle between humans & machines from the humans side, but what if there were machines on the other side which had the possibility of choice, which could be completely independent of the mainfraime? agent smith, the virus, for example. if this is true, then it gives the movie a whole new direction.

i don't think he's a machine, he's human, he's present outside of matrix in flesh, but he is somehow still connected to them, not sure how, cuz he said he felt those 5 sentinels that were after them in the underground...

i think its a possibility of there being a matrix within a matrix thats why neo could feel the sentinels but none the less still confusing can't wait for revolutions

Re: Re: the one and only Matrix Reloaded plot discussion thread

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Originally posted by TranceGeek all people connected to the matrix are dead............ ........but remember in the first matrix, neo died too, but then came back to life only becuase he realized that matrix is just code, and you can't really die in it if you rewrite the code, so thats what he did with trinity...

Could he not prevent everybody else from dying too then?

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Originally posted by Drifter i think its a possibility of there being a matrix within a matrix thats why neo could feel the sentinels but none the less still confusing can't wait for revolutions

it's definately a possibility, could be an interesting twist if it were true, but i think matrix is gone...

quote:

Originally posted by Spad Could he not prevent everybody else from dying too then?

no, cuz its a different type of death... trinity was hit by a bullet within the matrix, so he was able to heal her, everyone else died cuz the mainframe/matrix was destroyed...

http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm

this is pretty much the only thing you need.

one of the things that might make the choice to go through the left door at the end of the movie make sense, is taken from vedicism, which states that the point of our lifetime is to break the perpetual cycle of death and rebirth. when neo walked through the door on his right the previous five or six times, he found the source, and part of him was used to renew the code, prolonging the life of the harvesting fields where all the plugged humans were, and choose from whatever number of people to rebuild zion, since it is about to be destroyed by the machines.

neo chooses a different door this time, which, according to the architect means that he will essentially wipe out the entire human race - zion will be destroyed by the machines, and the plethora of crops which are used as batteries will also die.

thus, he's breaking the cycle of death and rebirth, choosing a path other than the one chosen previously, and stepping into the unknown.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGeek no, cuz its a different type of death... trinity was hit by a bullet within the matrix, so he was able to heal her, everyone else died cuz the mainframe/matrix was destroyed...

What's the difference? They're alive in the real world, they die because their connection to the matrix is severed right? Just the same as Trinity being shot (the body cannot exist without the mind or something).

I don't think Matrix 3 is going to start with everybody dead.

quote:

Originally posted by Spad What's the difference? They're alive in the real world, they die because their connection to the matrix is severed right? Just the same as Trinity being shot (the body cannot exist without the mind or something).

yeah, but you said yourself, 'the body cannot exist without the mind', so if the matrix is destroyed, then everyone that was connected to it at the time is dead; just like when they're unplugged without going through the phone exits...

I was a little too stoned to understand much of anything in this movie I'll have to go see it again WITHOUT the brownies

here are my thoughts as far as the matrix being destroyed:

Only the computers in the matrix are destroyed. how is everyone going to be dead from some imaginary computers being destroyed. It isn't like Neo is destroying actual computers.

well if we are to go by the storyline thus far, its logical to assume that everyone is dead (as already proven when someone is disconnected from the matrix, and also as confirmed by the architect)...

agreed, physically the computers are still there, but if the programming is destroyed, ie. the matrix, then computers are useless anyhow...

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGeek yeah, but you said yourself, 'the body cannot exist without the mind', so if the matrix is destroyed, then everyone that was connected to it at the time is dead; just like when they're unplugged without going through the phone exits...

Yes, I said that to was to illustrate that by saving Trinty; Neo demonstrates he is able to counteract this theory.

Although it just occured to me that he can't manipulate the matrix if it doesn't exist anymore......

I think I may have just disproved myself actually

quote:

Originally posted by Spad Yes, I said that to was to illustrate that by saving Trinty; Neo demonstrates he is able to counteract this theory. Although it just occured to me that he can't manipulate the matrix if it doesn't exist anymore...... I think I may have just disproved myself actually

now, the only question that remains is 'the prophecy'... it hasn't been fulfilled, but has been true up until matrix gets destroyed... does the prophecy relate to 'the one' making the other choice at the end, where zion is rebuilt and everything starts from scratch? i doubt it actually... i think part 3 will deal with this somehow for sure...

quote:

Originally posted by Neo nEro here are my thoughts as far as the matrix being destroyed: Only the computers in the matrix are destroyed. how is everyone going to be dead from some imaginary computers being destroyed. It isn't like Neo is destroying actual computers.

Its like taking away windows from your computer. Yes the puter still runs (physically) but the OS is gone and the computer cannot operate as a normal one would.


This is a nice twist tho... i dont know where will go

Me and my friend's theory, a product of yesterday's late-night philosophy session

Neo is an anomally, he is a diversion in the software, that The Architect tries to eliminate.
While there are other bugs and diversions in the software i.e Agent Smith, The Margovinian and his wife, Neo is the poweful one of them all.
The Architect explains that even though hes a diversion he is still yet not unexpected and thus still under a level of control.
But there is more, becuase The Architect was unable to eliminate that diversion, he tells us that he programmed a program that found the solution - The Oracle, that program is the one delivering the prophecy, that program is meant to keep Neo inside the Matrix in which he is controlled, thus allowing him a choice at the end which is obvious.
The Prophecy says that the One must enter to the source and the war will end, but it is not true, by going into the source, Neo restarts the matrix and allows The Architect to program the matrix again and hope for a smaller diversion in the software.
While the other door is where he wants to keep him away from - that door leads back into the real Matrix, where Neo is uncontrolled, and where he is capable to destroy the machines.
The Architech describes that door, as a door that will lead onto a
"Cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race."
This however, is far from truth, that door leads into the REAL salvation, that door will allow Neo to enter the real Matrix where he can defeat the machines and end this war.
In the previous 5 times, the One chose the door that supposedly leads into salvation, each time creating a new matrix, and creating a new chance for The Architect to try and eliminate the bug in the software.
But the diversion it seems just kept getting bigger, The Architect explains:
" While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love."

Neo is in love with Trinity, therefor he chooses to save her and walk into the different door this time, this is why "Something's changed"
this is why Neo cann all of the sudden feel the machines and this is why there is a chance to end the war

After seeing the movie, I've been interested in these and other questions. Unfortunately there may be no logical answers. Remember this is just a movie and screenwriters do things to advance the plot and to accomplish their own set of objectives. So, they aren't really concerned with creating a world that makes sense. For example it makes no sense that machines would ever allow Zion to be rebuilt. The meeting between Neo and the Architect is just there to forward the idea of freedom of choice to the audience. I dont think the Screenwriters have thought through all the implications of that choice (fate of the matrix and the ppl connected). The screenwriter has the ability to break any rules he wants. For example Agent Smith is brought back to life Neo brings Trinity back to life. For every inconsistency in the movie you can create some sort of explanation for it. But the more rules you break the hard it is to believe.

Here's my and a friends take on it (we saw it tonight).

Neo:

Neo was born within the harvesting method, thereby created by the machines. Would it not be possible for the machines to thereby plant something in him/his neraul cortex/his butt/etc like a special piece of code or something, one thats gives him power.

This ties into our Smith theory.

I see Neo as a tool used by the machines to debug the Matrix.

Their 'perfect world' design (Their intial Beta test of Matrix.exe if you will) didn't work as it lacked 'choice'. The addition of the 'choice' feature led to variables, and thus a buggy program.

Now, each previous version of Matrix.exe had problems, and the events surrounding the respective 'One' helped to idenitfy them, thus resulting in an improved upgrade to the next, less-buggy, version. They happen to be in Matrix Version 6.0

Agent Smith:

When Neo jumped into him and 'split his code' or whatever, is it not possible that Smith absorbed some of that code that makes Neo unique?
Thereby giving him powers beyond that of a normal Agent, and making him more like one of the 'exiled' programs that are still present in the current Matrix 6.0?

Exiled Programs:

Explained clearly enough in the movie, but still missed by some.
Previous versions of the Matrix had certain programs. Look at the Matrix as an OS, and everything in it as *.exe files. Wind.exe, Tree.exe, Coffee.exe, etc.

Now, older Matrices had programs like Werewolf.exe and Ghost.exe, but they were found to be a hinderance, and attempted deletion was enforced. Some programs escaped (Oracle.exe, Keymaker.exe) and kept by other more powerful programs.

Why Zion is rebuilt:

To ensure that the machines can still have their power source, and to restart yet another debugging run. This cycle will come to an end when the code is good enough to release Matrix Professional Edition. (or something to that effect )


I did have more ideas, but I'm a little tired now to remember them all, but that was the gist of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Spad I don't think Matrix 3 is going to start with everybody dead.

sorry i didnt read all the thread cos i cant be arsed lol, bu the third is probably gonna be set in zions final hours whilst the sentinels r still boaring, remember zion isnt saved yet, if neo had have gone thru the other door, it would have all started again, but the door he went thru allowed him to save trinity but zion would be buggered, i dont remember zion becoming buggered yet

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Originally posted by [N]�k|��[Z] sorry i didnt read all the thread cos i cant be arsed lol, bu the third is probably gonna be set in zions final hours whilst the sentinels r still boaring, remember zion isnt saved yet, if neo had have gone thru the other door, it would have all started again, but the door he went thru allowed him to save trinity but zion would be buggered, i dont remember zion becoming buggered yet

well, they do say that there was only 1 survivor FOUND... Bane

so yes, it might start out in zion's final hours

and there might be more survivors

quote:

Originally posted by whiskers well, they do say that there was only 1 survivor FOUND... Bane so yes, it might start out in zion's final hours and there might be more survivors

..like destinys child ?

if neo is human then how does he posess a code that must be reinserted into the source. if he is purely human he should not posess a code. remember that they say that programs that face deletion will srtuggle against it. is neo merely a program struggling against being deleted. i had something else to state but i do not remember it now.....hopefully it will come back to me

The main thing to remember in this particular movie is choice. All through the whole thing there seems to be a lot of choices being made. Although as the oracle says the choices have already been made. Choice is an illusion given to the weak by the powerful, as the Merovingian states. The machines have the power (both in physical number and in the sense that they made humans into power) Think about how the oracle knows exactly what is going to happen. It�s happened 5 times previous the exact same way. The statement that this time is different because neo loves trinity is flawed. How would the oracle know that the one Trinity loves is the "one" (as stated in the first movie) its happened 5 times just the same. So to your first question I say they picked the exact same door. The architect tells him exactly what he needs to hear. Also if you think about it does it really matter what door he chooses? The end result could still be obtained, although a larger pain in the ass if he chooses to wipe out everyone, but I don�t think machines would mind a little extra work.

For #2 I don�t know what your theory on people being plugged into 5 different versions is but either way ill blabber on some more. The idea of more than one matrix is a stretch. 5 different versions running at the same time seems unlikely. That�s like still running Windows 95, 98 and ME on a 2000 network, its not very efficient. 5 matrixes of the same version running independently of one another while a good idea would be really hard to pull off considering Zion is so close to the center of the earth and the massive tunnel system. Control on the "real world" is limited and what�s to stop "real people" from different versions of the matrix running into each other. What would happen if 2 ships wanted to meet up and were on different versions? For different version to run there would have to be 5 Zion�s also now that would be a real feat to pull off. This is the reason that the machines must control the one matrix they have with so much precision. It�s all a huge mathematical equation that works out for the machines in the end. Neo has the ability to see the world without time because he�s doing the equation. It�s almost like those little flash pick a symbol do this, this and this you picked % I read your mind.

I don't think that neo is a machine either. This is reinforced to me during the movie in 2 parts. One, when he talks to the councilor about his bad dreams me in the movie he is told that it is a good sign "that you are, in fact still human." Two, when he meats the architect he tells him that some of his answers he will not understand because of his lesser mind. He then goes on to talk about his predictability because of his human emotions. Because of that the chance of him being a machine is slim to none in my mind. Also if he was a machine he would be fully controllable so there would be no need for this whole thing to be occurring. He also talks about the anomaly going unchecked, and if the one was not kept in check the whole system would fail. The best control the machines have over the humans is emotion. He is made to love trinity so he can be controlled to make the choice at the end. Why he has to make that choice I don't know, that will be revealed in the third.

Now off the topic of your questions the only thing that I can think of that may make this particular occurrence of the anomaly different is his merger with smith. At the beginning after neo beats the shit out of those 3 agents smith says its going exactly as it has before (the other 5 times) then a copy of himself walks up and says "well not exactly." To me this shows that whatever code they swapped had not happened the other times. As far as the code they swapped goes I assume that neo transferred his "affinity for disobedience to smith" and smith transferred his connection to the machines and matrix to neo (ill explain where I came up with that) Morpheus states that the reason all the people are there is because of there affinity for disobedience. Smith explains that he knew what he was suppose to do when he was destroyed (go back to the source like the oracle talks about.) But he felt compelled to stay even though he knew the rules. As for Neo, from the very start you can see his connection to the machines and matrix. He knew that smith was at the door, and knew that agents were coming. Also I believe the package that smith gave to him was a symbol of the code that was transferred. His earpiece is what connected him with the other agents and the matrix (why he removed it when he was talking shit to Morpheus in the first)
This also explains the scene in the end "something�s different, I can feel them" Because code is knowledge in the real world at some unconscious level he is connected with the machines and even inherits some of their power (the energy blast that he emitted) thus draining all his power and putting him in a comatose state, much like a computer while turned off.

I believe that whatever happened between neo and smith is another left over of a remainder of an unbalanced equation/glitch, which was not predicted. This should be the deciding factor of what will happen in the third and make this instance of the matrix different. Hopefully allowing the human race to prevail, or with this merger between man and machine allow them to get into the future together as the oracle explained.

Sorry for length just some of my thoughts that 90+% of people prob wont read anyway =-P.

quote:

Originally posted by whitesmoke if neo is human then how does he posess a code that must be reinserted into the source. if he is purely human he should not posess a code. remember that they say that programs that face deletion will srtuggle against it. is neo merely a program struggling against being deleted. i had something else to state but i do not remember it now.....hopefully it will come back to me

Knowlege can be interperated as code. Also he is not "purely human" as he was breed/grown by machines. All the humans in the matrix are governed by code or a program the runs their life. Neo is different becuase the code/program that controlls his life inside the matrix is an anomally. Also the architect is just another system of control, he could be completely lieing about the fact that his code needs to be reinserted. He wants him to go and save Trinity so that he returns to the real world, he makes it a point to say that he cant do anything about her death(triggers the manly response of fuck that i can do anything). Maybe the architect wants him to die in the real world to get rid of his anomilous code. Who knows why, it should be revealed in the third. Although the more I talk and listen about the whole thing the way my views change on certain things.

BTW the other thing you may have wanted to state was that the architect says that the function (function relating to a program)of the one is to return to the source and reinserting the prime program. Which is a good point I just realized right now, but still doesnt outweigh my views on him being human. The architect follows that with talk about chemicals that are leading to neos emotions. The amount of references of him being human far outweigh those of him being a program in my mind, but i could be wrong.

quick question.

'who' do you guys think is the female counterpart of the Architect? the oracle?

quote:

the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother. Neo - The Oracle. The Architect - Please.As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself

guess not. so who does that leave? someone we haven't seen yet? or could it be trinity (certainly would be interesting)?

the oracle IS the mother, the architect designed the matrix but he failed each time in the sense that people in the matrix didnt understand the concept of choice, the oracle is a program designed to sort of let people know that they have a choice, and she made it better and indeed what it is on the matrix 6.0. i think thats what the architect is saying, cos she helped push it onto the next level, so to speak

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