TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Political Discussion / Debate
-- Is a new Cold War starting?
Pages (2): [1] 2 »

Is a new Cold War starting?

The European Union demonstrated its determination to become a major military power today when its leading members signed a $23 billion contract to buy a fleet of 180 Airbus A400 military transport jumbo jets, with the capacity to deploy up to 20,000 troops far beyond Europe's shores in a single airlift.

The move is a dream come true for French President Jacques Chirac and German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, who since breaking with Washington over Iraq have vowed to create a power to rival the United States.

Last month's Franco-German-Belgian summit that called for an EU military capability distinct from NATO, and with its own intelligence, staff and logistics arms, and a separate headquarters from NATO, has revived American concerns. Add this row to the fall-out from Iraq and you have the beginnings already of the divisions that we wanted to get rid of when the Cold War finished."

The Airbus contract gives the EU the capability to become a global strategic actor in its own right, in a way that could worry the United States in regions where American and European policies differ, as they did over Iraq.

.. I know this is for big time flaming, but thank you Bush for throwing YEARS of diplomacy to the garbage, nice JOB!

You might want to aim you thank you toward French President Jacques Chirac and German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder!

I don't think there will be a Cold War, unless the US attacks a european country, or vise versa. Other thing that might spark something is the US not selling Iraqui petroleum to those nations as a way to punish them ( this is when I wonder, does US really have the right to do so?!!? .. and why?!? just for opposing?!? )

quote:

I don't think there will be a Cold War, unless the US attacks a european country, or vise versa.

A cold war is a war with no direct fighting between the countries involved.
A cold war often involves countries with different ideologies (e.g. USA capitalist and USSR communist).
A war of mistrust, spying, propaganda and deception.

Mmmmm well, propaganda is a big Issue here in the United States, and in the last couple of months there's been lots of controversy because of it. Also, I do remember when the US sent out spies to spy on each nation that had a voting right in the UN and those pending UN nations. Thought I doubt that could start something. Mistrust, mmm everything can be avided with deplomacy, unless some arse is big time bully tours it.

I think the LAST thing any side wants is a REAL war. When I think of reasons that EU countries would want military equipment, threatening the United States doesn't top my list at all.

Don't forget that it was the United States who set this "pre-emptive war" precedent in the post WWII era, the door is open...

I have neither the time nor inclination to reply properly to this post right now, it's too early in the morning for me , however this is a good topic, nice one trinity, and I'll reply later today when I've had me some sleep!

Re: Is a new Cold War starting?

Trinity, great thread! I haven't posted in this forum for a while, but I've been so disgusted by this that I am compelled to at least denounce it.

quote:

Originally posted by trintiy The European Union demonstrated its determination to become a major military power today when its leading members signed a $23 billion contract to buy a fleet of 180 Airbus A400 military transport jumbo jets, with the capacity to deploy up to 20,000 troops far beyond Europe's shores in a single airlift. The move is a dream come true for French President Jacques Chirac and German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, who since breaking with Washington over Iraq have vowed to create a power to rival the United States. Last month's Franco-German-Belgian summit that called for an EU military capability distinct from NATO, and with its own intelligence, staff and logistics arms, and a separate headquarters from NATO, has revived American concerns. Add this row to the fall-out from Iraq and you have the beginnings already of the divisions that we wanted to get rid of when the Cold War finished." The Airbus contract gives the EU the capability to become a global strategic actor in its own right, in a way that could worry the United States in regions where American and European policies differ, as they did over Iraq.

I think this is utterly, utterly pathetic. This just shows how people will always, always make the same stupid mistakes over and over again. Too bad that today, the potential exists to destroy the world over humanity's stupidity.

Those European leaders who "vowed to create a power to rival the United States" should rather spend their time, money, and effort on mending US-World relations rather than doing such a stupid thing as military buildup.

Hasn't anyone learned that war is NOT the answer? No offence to the US, but even though Bush hasn't learned that lesson so far (tongue-in-cheek), at least France and Germany, heavily affected by WWII, have learned it by now?? How many world wars must everyone go through before humanity throws its hands up in desperation and cries, "Enough is enough!!!" Or maybe it will be too late by then.

EDIT: I just hope that this is all merely due to hurt pride over the Iraq affair, and that things won't seriously develop. In any case, the anti-war movement in Europe is pretty strong so I doubt any real offensives or major buildups will ever get off the ground.

Key word here being: hope.

Then again, Nationalism might just raise its ugly head once more...

wow, modern leaders are barbaric. i guess they think that the best strategy is to fight fire with fire. i find it sickening.

airbus A400's aren't nothing compared to what america has in heavy airlift compacities. i really don't think this is a 'build' up to another cold war, but rather the EU just creating it's first intial steps towards rapid air deployment; a capability russians and american's had for nearly three decades.

trinity i have a vague feeling that you're posting articles from the same news agency, one that portrays everyone not pro-american as devil or so

the europeans wanting to build an european army?!?! such old news my friend, they wanted to do that right after WW2 to prevent the Soviets to invade. But the US was always there to give incentives not to do so and created NATO, etc etc etc its a really long story.

Even in the 90s Germans and French started the integration of both their armies. Europe always wanted to have a strong army so they can have a word to say in international events...

your article takes something that started in the past and makes it relative to something that just happened (France and Germany disagreeing with the US) to portray those 2 countries as bad and what not

ahlamalek your an idiot! No other way to put it.

The European�s did not want to build an army after WWII their countries were decimated. They had neither the money nor the logistics to put together a centralized army. Western Europe had been willing to live under the umbrella of the United States against the threat of the Soviet Union. Indeed, the US and Western Europe formed the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) in 1949 to provide the security apparatus ready to defend mainland Europe against a possible Soviet invasion. As with the First and Second World Wars, the US's assistance was vital. This time, however, the US was needed to ensure that peace and stability remained in Western Europe. The US had to ensure that liberal Western Europe did not become swamped by communism in the same way that fascism had.

Also in the 90s, as you so incorrectly put it, the European�s did not intend to build an army. The emphasis was on crisis management and conflict prevention in multi-national operations like those mounted in Bosnia and Kosovo. If a conventional war happens in Western Europe, the WEU will continue to work alongside and subordinate to NATO as it still remains the main apparatus capable of mounting offensive military operations. It wasn�t until 20 November 2000 that the European Union Defence Ministers met in Brussels and agreed to the creation of a EU Rapid Reaction Force.

Only now that their�s a single currency in Europe is it a proper European Union and the hopes of building a single military be achieved.

quote:

your article takes something that started in the past and makes it relative to something that just happened (France and Germany disagreeing with the US) to portray those 2 countries as bad and what not

And to this, I simply reply this happened on Tuesday, May 27, 2003. This is new and cutting edge news.

And finally my post neither takes a pro-american nor a pro-european side. I'm simply raising the discussion that our political leaders are idiots and learned nothing from the last 30 years. The cold war between American and Russia nearly saw the launch of nuclear weapons at least 6 times. You would think by now we would have learned our lesson.

The next time you want to have a debate with me come equipped with facts and not you bullshit rhetoric, it�s starting to get old. Besides shouldn�t you be losing a debate to occrider on another thread I started.

quote:

Originally posted by trintiy You might want to aim you thank you toward French President Jacques Chirac and German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder!

Ok, I'm sick of this goddamn French bashing. France and Germany voiced their views on the war because they LOOKED AHEAD INTO WHAT WILL OCCUR IN THE FUTURE! Seriously, look at this deep shit the U.S. is into now: we have to maintain peace in a country on the brink of anarchy AND renew our affairs with other countries that wanted to avoid war. It is Bush's fault for all of this. HE ruined foreign policy for the U.S. And as a result, all the Americans that we call the "lowest common denominator" began bashing these countries. It's getting plenty worse as a result. With all the boycotting, France has already lost over $500 million in exports and 1/4 of its tourism. If we want to stabilize the global economy and among other things get the U.S. out of its recession, we need to work with other countries; otherwise, we will all fall.

quote:

trintiy And finally my post neither takes a pro-american nor a pro-european side. I'm simply raising the discussion that our political leaders are idiots and learned nothing from the last 30 years. The cold war between American and Russia nearly saw the launch of nuclear weapons at least 6 times. You would think by now we would have learned our lesson.

Well said, I totally agree. It seems as if we haven't.

quote:

Originally posted by Galapidate Ok, I'm sick of this goddamn French bashing. France and Germany voiced their views on the war because they LOOKED AHEAD INTO WHAT WILL OCCUR IN THE FUTURE! Seriously, look at this deep shit the U.S. is into now: we have to maintain peace in a country on the brink of anarchy AND renew our affairs with other countries that wanted to avoid war. It is Bush's fault for all of this. HE ruined foreign policy for the U.S. And as a result, all the Americans that we call the "lowest common denominator" began bashing these countries. It's getting plenty worse as a result. With all the boycotting, France has already lost over $500 million in exports and 1/4 of its tourism. If we want to stabilize the global economy and among other things get the U.S. out of its recession, we need to work with other countries; otherwise, we will all fall.

Galapidate I agree with the spirit of your post. However, trinity was not bashing France nor Germany. He was simply pointing out exactly what I have quoted from his previous post.

I agree that a lot of Americans are really too nationalistic for the good of the planet. Hurting France's economy like that is not a one-way street. For every action there is a reaction - the recession in the US isn't going to get any better. Or something else will backfire. But whatever it is, backfire it will. I think Americans need to learn one lesson badly, above all other lessons:

No one nation is or ever was "invincible" and no one nation ever lasted forever.

Once people start realizing the truth of that, maybe some cooperation can come about in the world. (Make no mistake, this applies to everyone)

Ah, alright I should've checked. I just thought he was another France basher.

Galapidate I have a question for you. How many countries have you visited outside the U.S since the whole war thing began?

I'm an American and my wife is British, we currently live in England and are both extremely well travelled. I've got news for you America is not the only country at fault for ruining international relations.

During the war we visited Austria, and Paris for a short holiday and the news media in those countries bashed American and Americans left right and center. While the Austrian people were polite to us, the Parisians were anything but.

Don't be so naive to think America stands on top of this pedestal looking down at people and that we are the only country that can be nationalistic and vindictive. It takes more than one stubborn politician to ruin international relations.

stayed tuned for World War 3: Germany goes for 3rd time lucky!

and

World War 3: Do we really have to bail the french out, again?


have a nice day.

^You seem to forget that without help from the French during the Revolutionary War the U.S. wouldn't exist. France has not been a total failure in every war it has fought.

Where's the common enemy when you need it?


...


Oh North Koreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeea, step over here for a sec

quote:

Originally posted by trintiy Galapidate I have a question for you. How many countries have you visited outside the U.S since the whole war thing began? I'm an American and my wife is British, we currently live in England and are both extremely well travelled. I've got news for you America is not the only country at fault for ruining international relations. During the war we visited Austria, and Paris for a short holiday and the news media in those countries bashed American and Americans left right and center. While the Austrian people were polite to us, the Parisians were anything but. Don't be so naive to think America stands on top of this pedestal looking down at people and that we are the only country that can be nationalistic and vindictive. It takes more than one stubborn politician to ruin international relations.

I usesd to live in Vienna and Brussels long before any of this war crap started and I agree with your analyses even back then. Some of this resentment was not newly created in recent times.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider I usesd to live in Vienna and Brussels long before any of this war crap started and I agree with your analyses even back then. Some of this resentment was not newly created in recent times.

True. When I lived in Vienna (1998-2001), there were constant protests and demonstrations in front of the Parliament building. Often, there were American flags burning, and large "Bush dolls" being beaten and being lit up.

quote:

Originally posted by DrummeRaver86 True. When I lived in Vienna (1998-2001), there were constant protests and demonstrations in front of the Parliament building. Often, there were American flags burning, and large "Bush dolls" being beaten and being lit up.

Wow ... somebody else from Wien ... nice. Anyway I was in Wien (Salmansdorf area by the American International School of Vienna) from 1995-1997 and in Brussels from 1992-1995. I've been all over Western Europe and most of Eastern Europe and my experiences has been wierd. Over much of western Europe there seems to be a lot of anti-american resentment (except for Germany oddly enough) whereas over the eastern European nations my family had been graciously welcomed as visitors. Despite my pro-Americanism, Vienna is the best city on Earth and I will move there as soon as I can afford to!!!

I've never been to Austria. Hell, I've never been further into Europe than France! I wouldn't mind a binge in Ibiza for a week or so!

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka I've never been to Austria. Hell, I've never been further into Europe than France! I wouldn't mind a binge in Ibiza for a week or so!

The Brits hate the americans there.. so you better not mention that to them, especially when they are drunk hehe..

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.