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-- Pitch-change question...????

Posted by Zack Roth on May-30-2003 07:07:

Pitch-change question...????

I have a question about beat-matching using a Numark TTX1 turntable. When I'm using the pitch slider to speed up, or slow down the track, the on-board BPM counter only reads tenths of a percent change, for example 1.3%, and does not get any more exact...like 1.35%. It's really hard to get the beat matches on track...does the turntable only CHANGE a tenth of a percent at a time, or does it only just DISPLAY the tenth of a percent change, and there is actually a pitch change that i can't see by watching the bpm counter? I'm not sure if this makes any sense. Basically I want to know if you can change the pitch to a more exact degree than just the tenth of a percent change the on-board BPM counter shows. Thanks.

Posted by zapper on May-30-2003 09:00:

101% sure that you can. The TTX1 is Numarks best turntable isn't it, so it would be very strange if the pitch control wasn't more accurate. Anyway you may have to move the pitch slider just a fraction of a millimeter sometimes to get a perfect beatmatch, so it isn't easy. Always be prepared to do some adjustments during the mix!

Posted by u4ea on May-30-2003 13:59:

Unfortunately, the pitch on the TTX1s are digital...not analog. You will never be able to get less than a .10% pitch range. I found this out the hard way. I was so excited when I got my TTX1s, they are solid tables, the torque will take your finger off, they look cool...but they have digital pitch These are phenomenal tables for hip hop djs...but not for us beatmatching DJs...they don't have pitch accuracy due to digital pitch.

I asked Numark about this, they lied to me and said that the pitch can increment/decrement smaller than .10%...Bull$#!t. I could never get a song synched for more than one phrase without having to fiddle with the record or pitch during the mix. Clearly the pitch is digital. I've heard a few other TTX1 users complain about this (on futureproducers.com) as well as a guy that trades records with me (think he just sold his TTX1s).

I returned mine and got 1200s...best decision I ever made. Analog pitch = accuracy

Posted by JohnSmith on May-30-2003 16:14:

seriously? that's unbelievable, their pitch is really digital?

Posted by Zack Roth on May-30-2003 18:42:

Posted by Martin McG on May-30-2003 18:48:

learn by ear its much more accurate and you dont get lazy!

you can also tell if they are drifting apart quicker as your concentrating more using your ears!

Posted by Zack Roth on May-30-2003 18:51:

quote:
Originally posted by big dave
learn by ear its much more accurate and you dont get lazy!

you can also tell if they are drifting apart quicker as your concentrating more using your ears!

yeah, but if they have a digital pitch change of only tenths of a percent, it will be impossible either way.

Posted by Martin McG on May-30-2003 18:52:

the pitch will not change in 10s of a second only the digital readout

the pitch will be the same as every other deck

Posted by Zack Roth on May-30-2003 19:03:

quote:
Originally posted by big dave
the pitch will not change in 10s of a second only the digital readout

the pitch will be the same as every other deck

The guy who posted above doesn't seem to think so. I'm not gonna give up on it yet obviously. But from the limited experience I've had with it so far, it seems that he may be right.

Posted by ChavezHype on May-30-2003 20:14:

quote:
Originally posted by zapper
101% sure that you can. The TTX1 is Numarks best turntable isn't it, so it would be very strange if the pitch control wasn't more accurate. Anyway you may have to move the pitch slider just a fraction of a millimeter sometimes to get a perfect beatmatch, so it isn't easy. Always be prepared to do some adjustments during the mix!

yea you really got to move it by little amounts... great accuracy! however a real pain if you're used to techs. Otherwise works those finger muscles nicely!

Posted by Zack Roth on May-31-2003 04:31:

quote:
Originally posted by ChavezHype
yea you really got to move it by little amounts... great accuracy! however a real pain if you're used to techs. Otherwise works those finger muscles nicely!

eh, I took them back today, ordering the Technics tomorrow.
trying to decide which model...whats the difference between the 1200's and the 1210's and the MKII's and the M3D's etc...
Thanks.

Posted by Dj Flesch on May-31-2003 13:49:

quote:
Originally posted by u4ea
Unfortunately, the pitch on the TTX1s are digital...not analog. You will never be able to get less than a .10% pitch range. I found this out the hard way. I was so excited when I got my TTX1s, they are solid tables, the torque will take your finger off, they look cool...but they have digital pitch These are phenomenal tables for hip hop djs...but not for us beatmatching DJs...they don't have pitch accuracy due to digital pitch.

I asked Numark about this, they lied to me and said that the pitch can increment/decrement smaller than .10%...Bull$#!t. I could never get a song synched for more than one phrase without having to fiddle with the record or pitch during the mix. Clearly the pitch is digital. I've heard a few other TTX1 users complain about this (on futureproducers.com) as well as a guy that trades records with me (think he just sold his TTX1s).

I returned mine and got 1200s...best decision I ever made. Analog pitch = accuracy

I think that this statement is untrue. I own a TTX1, and as Numark said, it is an analog pitch slider with a digital readout--it is not a digital slider. The readout doesn't have more than one decimal place because it's useless to do that. You can fine tune the rest by ear as every DJ has to do.

One thing that you have to remember about the TTX1 is that you can change the pitch range from 8 to 12 to 20 to 50! percent pitch adjust. When you do this the range of motion you can move you pitch slider doesn't change, therefore if you move it half way up at 8 percent, it will change it a LOT less (4%) than if you move it half way up at 50 percent (the pitch will change by 25%!). So this means that if you have your pitch range selected at a higher level, it will be harder to fine tune your beatmatching. If you are used to the Technics normal 8%, then sure it will seem like it is harder to beatmatch when you are at +/- 12%, 20% or 50%.

I ask you U4ea, do you remember what you had your table set to--for sure? I've used this table and I can beatmatch fine with it. On another note, the Pioneer CDJs are the same way. They only have a readout to one decimal place, but the slider is still analog and can be accurate to quite a bit more places. Try it out...see how far you can slide the pitch slider before you actually increase or decrease the digital readout--or you can compare the different percent pitch increases this way too on the TTX1.

As someone said, this table is solid and for Numark's top-of-the-line table, damn straight it doesn't have this limitation. The only reason that people never noticed it on Technics is because Technics doesn't even have a readout!

Posted by ChavezHype on May-31-2003 16:33:

yea but flesch does it not stay in-sync like he's saying? Like when you're trying to get your pitch for the perfect increment it will slip to differnt one during your mix? Making you have to fiddle with the pitch constantly during your mix? Or is the problem you think just because people weren't putting their pitch settings to the technics standard of 8%? I'm just suprised... I've found this problem at other places as well, but it seems uncommon, while most djs seem to have no problem beatmatching their trance/house and other likewise genres that are purely mix with the turntable.

Posted by Nabistai on May-31-2003 16:52:

I don't have a ttx1 but I assume that the system is exactly the same as with cdj100's which I do have. In that case I don't get what the hell you people are complaining about

Posted by ChavezHype on May-31-2003 17:28:

I found out what I think the problem is. Unless you've already tried this zizack and u4ea then it should clear things up. You may only select pitch ranges of 10%, 20% and 50% as well as the technics 8%, however you must hold the pitch button down for 2 seconds and then it switches to the �classic� 8% mode. Also, after you do th this, the pitch range indicators will not indicate what mode you're in (the 8% mode) - (it either illuminates 10,20 or 50). That puts you in the proper mode for regualr mixing, and the pitch will be like that of the technics, however you will only "see" on pitch percentage on the LCD 10ths of percentages, however this does not mean it doesn't go into hundreths, as the tempo does change.
If you guys already tried this, then i don't know what happened.

Posted by Dj Flesch on May-31-2003 20:43:

quote:
Originally posted by ChavezHype
yea but flesch does it not stay in-sync like he's saying? Like when you're trying to get your pitch for the perfect increment it will slip to differnt one during your mix? Making you have to fiddle with the pitch constantly during your mix? Or is the problem you think just because people weren't putting their pitch settings to the technics standard of 8%? I'm just suprised... I've found this problem at other places as well, but it seems uncommon, while most djs seem to have no problem beatmatching their trance/house and other likewise genres that are purely mix with the turntable.

I've never had a problem beatmatching with either my TTX1 or my CDJ-100s. I don't mean to bash on anyone, but if the tracks aren't aligned, then you can't beatmatch as well as you thought you could. Don't blame the equipment because you aren't familiar with it. How long did you give it zizack, two days at most? It took me years to learn how to beatmatch perfectly and learn how to precisely tweak my equipment! You have to be patient and give yourself a chance to learn the tiny nuances of the table because every piece of equipment is slightly different. How long have you been spinning, and with what equipment? In my opinion, you didn't even give your tables a chance. You sided with someone who didn't like it because they didn't give it a chance either and returned them based on an uninformed opinion. When u4ea contacted Numark, they didn't lie to him, they just confirmed to me that he can't beatmatch as well as he thought.

Posted by Zack Roth on May-31-2003 22:25:

quote:
Originally posted by Dj Flesch
I've never had a problem beatmatching with either my TTX1 or my CDJ-100s. I don't mean to bash on anyone, but if the tracks aren't aligned, then you can't beatmatch as well as you thought you could. Don't blame the equipment because you aren't familiar with it. How long did you give it zizack, two days at most? It took me years to learn how to beatmatch perfectly and learn how to precisely tweak my equipment! You have to be patient and give yourself a chance to learn the tiny nuances of the table because every piece of equipment is slightly different. How long have you been spinning, and with what equipment? In my opinion, you didn't even give your tables a chance. You sided with someone who didn't like it because they didn't give it a chance either and returned them based on an uninformed opinion. When u4ea contacted Numark, they didn't lie to him, they just confirmed to me that he can't beatmatch as well as he thought.

I have only been DJing for a few months, but I have used other tables where beatmatching wasn't nearly as complicated. Also, as soon as I started using it, I got the feeling that I was playing with a toy, rather than a legit turntable. I didn't like the bpm counter or all the digital readouts, and I came to the realization, after having difficulty with the pitch salider, that I should have goen with my initial instict, spent more money, and got the technics right away.

Posted by u4ea on Jun-02-2003 13:58:

Zizack, you made the right decision...I know you'll be a happier DJ with the 1200s

No offense DJ Flesch, your posts are always well thought out and very insightful. A few months ago, I was checking around with other TTX1 users to see if they were having the same problem that I had...sure enough they did. You were the only one that said the TTX1s were not the problem. You also stated that you were using the 20% range pitch setting. I tried this, but to no avail. I preferred the 8% setting but still couldn't get my tunes to stay synched. I returned the TTX1s (with a tear in my eye...those tables are so damn sexy), and came home with 1200s. After a few hours of practicing, I noticed a dramatic difference in how well the tunes stay synched. I put out demos after that and even picked up a few spots here in DC, I'm very happy with the Technics tables.

My apologies in my previous quote, I am not 100% sure that the TTX1s are digital pitch, they just responded that way. I don't want to misinform anybody. It could be possible that I had 2 faulty tables...who knows. Beats were drifting after 1/2-1 phrase. I do know that I couldn't keep tunes synched the way I wanted them to, so I took action. I started off on Gemini PT1000s, and they could hold pitch better than the TTX1s.