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-- Well ... this road map will probably fail

Well ... this road map will probably fail

Sigh ... when one extremist finally makes concessions you can always count on the others to ensure that the concessions are meaningless.

I was actually heartened by Sharon's efforts in the road map and I was thinking ... goddamn he's actually removing settlements, maybe there is chance for peace.

quote:

SHARON SAYS WILL BEGIN TO SCRAP OUTPOSTS In his statement to cameras as Bush, Abbas and host King Abdullah of Jordan stood beside him at separate lecterns, Sharon said: "I want to reiterate that Israel is a society governed by the rule of law. "Thus we will begin immediately to evacuate unauthorized outposts." Sharon was referring to mainly sparsely populated hilltop settlements established without Israeli government permission in the West Bank after March 2001, when Sharon came to power, and which the road map mandates must be scrapped. He did not say how many outposts -- there are an estimated 60 -- would be uprooted, a move that will anger far-right members of his ruling coalition. "We can also reassure our Palestinian partners that we understand the importance of territorial contiguity in the West Bank for a viable Palestinian state," Sharon said in remarks that could suggest that some long-established settlements might be evacuated as part of a permanent peace accord. The international community views as illegal all the settlements Israel planted on land it seized in the 1967 Middle East war. Israel disputes this. Palestinian Foreign Minister Nabil Shaath described as unprecedented Sharon's "very clear commitment and recognition of an independent Palestinian state and very clear talk of ending settlement activity." http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle....storyID=2877156

Then I scroll down to the next article and see this:

quote:

Hamas, Jihad Say Won't Disarm, Defy Palestinian PM Wed June 4, 2003 10:39 AM ET GAZA (Reuters) - Palestinian militant groups vowed on Wednesday they would not disarm, defying an appeal by Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas issued at a U.S.-led peace summit with Israel. "We will never be ready to lay down arms until the liberation of the last centimeter of the land of Palestine," Hamas official Abdel-Aziz al-Rantissi said. Islamic Jihad, another group sworn to Israel's destruction, followed suit. But neither group ruled out further talks with Abbas, which seeks a halt to Palestinian attacks in a 32-month-old revolt for independence in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip. Abbas met President Bush and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in the Jordanian resort Aqaba on Wednesday for talks aimed at advancing a U.S.-backed peace "road map" which envisages a Palestinian state co-existing with Israel. "The armed Intifada (uprising) must end and we must resort to peaceful means to achieve our goals," Abbas said. Hamas and Islamic Jihad view Israel, as well as the West Bank and Gaza, as Palestinian land but have indicated they could halt suicide bombings and other attacks inside the Jewish state. http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle....storyID=2877083

Once again, I reiterate my stance that peace cannot be achieved unless these groups are reigned in through the use of force. The PLO must consolidate their grip on the terrorists. For those of you who say "look at the root causes," that is what the peace negotiations are all about! However, the root causes of this struggle will ONLY be addressed through diplomatic negotiations. It will never be achieved through violent means. Therefore BOTH parties will be better off without militant, extremist organizations acting on their own volition.

I read an article today which made me even more pessimistic. Suppose that you solve even the greatest current problems such as terrorism , jerusalem, settlements and refugees...you'll still have the toughest issue unsolved: Demographic development.

1. The little economically disastrous "entity" Palestine will totally collapse when having to integrate another 3 million refugees. Civil War due to economic reasons, or other rivalies , anarchy (similiar to post-war Iraq, but much more critical)
2. Arab Israelis will outnumber the Jewish citizens of Israel in about 60 years (and that the "best case scenario" in which no single pall. refugee will return to Israel) What then? Jews living as a minority in their own country? A "transfer" of Arab israeluis to the new Palestinian State? More anarchy....
3. The simple fact that never before in history a country which was de facto "split up" by another country existed peacefully (remember Poland in th last century)....I'm referring to Gaza / West Bank here.

Unfortunately this overpopulation problem is the least solvable of all No "Road map" will do shit against it.

Re: Well ... this road map will probably fail

Occrider, unfortunately, it seems that the PLO has no control over Hamas. Otherwise, I think things would be different. The only "grip" the PLO could consolidate would be their non-existant one.

Re: Re: Well ... this road map will probably fail

quote:

Originally posted by DrummeRaver86 Occrider, unfortunately, it seems that the PLO has no control over Hamas. Otherwise, I think things would be different. The only "grip" the PLO could consolidate would be their non-existant one.

Arrggghhh that's what pisses me off! I hate people who try to justify the existence of these groups! Root causes my ass! They don't even REPRESENT the group they so claim to fight for anymore. They only represent a minority, extremist faction which then dictates the consequences that the majority suffer as a result of their actions! Please anybody who argued against me before about resolving the "root causes" of terrorism as a solution instead of eliminating them through force. Please explain to me how you can adopt such a policy in these kinds of circumstances!!! Keep in mind that Hamas doesn't care about Israel establishing a Palestinians state ... they want no Israel period!

Nothing will get done, sadly. This Group will not let it happen, just watch.

Re: Re: Re: Well ... this road map will probably fail

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Arrggghhh that's what pisses me off! I hate people who try to justify the existence of these groups! Root causes my ass! They don't even REPRESENT the group they so claim to fight for anymore. They only represent a minority, extremist faction which then dictates the consequences that the majority suffer as a result of their actions! Please anybody who argued against me before about resolving the "root causes" of terrorism as a solution instead of eliminating them through force. Please explain to me how you can adopt such a policy in these kinds of circumstances!!! Keep in mind that Hamas doesn't care about Israel establishing a Palestinians state ... they want no Israel period!

umm....i'm confused? was i right or are you disagreeing with me?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Well ... this road map will probably fail

quote:

Originally posted by DrummeRaver86 umm....i'm confused? was i right or are you disagreeing with me?

Agreeing with you silly

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well ... this road map will probably fail

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Agreeing with you silly

ohh haha, right.
i knew that

If anything this roadmap will only weaken Palestine by creating internal divisions between Abbas, hardline followers of Arafat, and those supporters of Hamas.

Well here's the first nail in the coffin of which many are to follow I'm sure:

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle....storyID=2895280

Honestly, although this may sound radical and somewhat stupid, I think Israelis and anti-terrorist Palestinians should wage war against Hamas. They're pretty much the only reason why peace negotiations don't work in the Middle East.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Well here's the first nail in the coffin of which many are to follow I'm sure: http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle....storyID=2895280

Agreed.

Well, this sucks. I think, eventually, people will get so tired of all this, that measures will be taken that would be considered extreme today. What those measures are, I have no idea, but let's hope it happens. All that needs to occur is for the people to get riled up enough.

Oh, and I might be incredibly wrong with this. I do NOT know the full situation in the Middle East, and even if I did, I would STILL not understand it fully, due to the cultural differences. Religion plays such a huge part here, that unless one was raised with that religion, and therefore contains the mindset of that religion, one will not be able to fully understand everything that is going on over there. This is something we should all keep in mind while debating over this situation. At least IMHO. Could be wrong though - I'm no social psychologist.

Of course, it doesn't take anything special to infer that Lots of Senseless Violence = Bad. There are other factors, however, which cause people to keep doing promoting it despite the obvious negative effects. (mainly religion)

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle....storyID=2895631

quote:

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon withstood jeering rightists at a meeting of his Likud party on Sunday, defending his recognition of the need for a Palestinian state made at a U.S.-led peace summit last week. "I take responsibility for this upon myself," the ex-general told Likud's Central Committee in Jerusalem, ignoring catcalls from ultra-nationalists in the fractious right-wing party who held up signs reading, "Sharon gave in to terrorism."

I'm very surprised Sharon isn't adopting a more hardline stance following the recent terrorist attacks. It's actually somewhat heartening that he's committed towards the establishment of a Palestinian state against his own party's stance. I only hope Abbas delivers on his promise ...

The son of a bitch is actually following through with his word:

quote:

Settlers: Israel Begins Evacuation of Outpost Mon June 9, 2003 10:03 AM ET JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel began an operation to evacuate a Jewish settler outpost Monday under a U.S.-backed "road map" to peace affirmed at a Middle East summit last week, the main settler organization said. The YESHA Council said Israeli army tractors had arrived at the Neve Erez outpost in the West Bank, northeast of Jerusalem, to begin demolishing caravans. A Defense Ministry spokeswoman had no immediate comment on what would be the first such uprooting of an outpost in line with a promise Prime Minister Ariel Sharon made at a U.S.-Palestinian-Israeli summit in Jordan Wednesday. "The evacuation of Neve Erez has begun," the council said in a statement. It said YESHA leaders earlier held a disappointing meeting with Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz, who presented them with a list of settler outposts the army planned to dismantle soon. The statement did not say how many of the outposts, many of them sparsely populated clusters of caravans on hilltops and all unauthorized by the Israeli government, would be removed. Israeli media reports said about 15 were on the roster. The road map, which calls for an end to Israeli-Palestinian violence and the start of reciprocal steps leading to the creation of a Palestinian state by 2005, mandates the removal of settler outposts set up since Sharon took office in March 2001. Israel's Peace Now group, which monitors settlement activity, puts their number at around 60. The international community views all Jewish settlements, including the 145 established by Israeli governments on land seized in the 1967 Middle East war, as illegal. Israel disputes this.

If the settlement disbandment of illegal settlements and a freeze on growth of legal settlements continues I'm going to go ahead and say that the burden of achieving peace is going to fall on the shoulders of Abbas and the Palestinians.

So far it's just the disassembly of scattered, unihibited and isolated outposts. It's a first step but at this point it's primarily symbolic.

quote:

Originally posted by PeacefulWarrior So far it's just the disassembly of scattered, unihibited and isolated outposts. It's a first step but at this point it's primarily symbolic.

uninhabited?



Some of them were uninhabited but many of the ones populated with settlers are scheduled to be removed as well. What's important is that if the Palestinians can actually stop the terrorism it will lead to future removals and greater concessions. But if the Palestinains can't maintain any control over the extremist what's the point of Israel making concessions?

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Some of them were uninhabited but many of the ones populated with settlers are scheduled to be removed as well. What's important is that if the Palestinians can actually stop the terrorism it will lead to future removals and greater concessions. But if the Palestinains can't maintain any control over the extremist what's the point of Israel making concessions?

There are plans to remove populated settlements,...I was just talking about the ones that were destroyed today.

Well I think we can remove the word probably from the thread title. Israel's anticipated response against the Hamas attacks have happened.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle....storyID=2905342

Just another day in the middle east ...

http://mediaframe.yahoo.com/launch?...%252F4crsn.html

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy http://mediaframe.yahoo.com/launch?...%252F4crsn.html

Hey I agree with you ... Sharon's actually made efforts to uphold his end of the bargain by agreeing to remove illegal settlements. It doesn't seem like Abbas has made much of an effort to use his security force to curb extremist violence as was stipulated. However, these Israeli counter-attacks have more or less doomed any chance to save the road map which, although is not Israel's fault, is a complete shame.

All i can do at this point is sit back and just watch in amazement. What the hell are these people thinking? Are they THAT stupid? On the one had we have Abbas, a man that seems capable enought to end the problem, yet he says he has no control over Hamas. Then we have dear Ariel who thinks it's a great idea to just send a couple of gunships to the Jabalya refugee camp and blow shit up. We have a saying an Arabic that when tranlated pretty much says the one guy is even stupider than the other. Talk about a vicious freakin cycle. Peace plan and middle east have just become complete antonyms for the rest of time. Enough!

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