Yet another bus blast in Jerusalem

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Posted by Shakka on Jun-11-2003 14:40:

Yet another bus blast in Jerusalem

Alright, this is well beyond rediculous. At some point should there be a joint roundup of members of Hamas and simply kick them out of the country?? I will not take sides here, but it seems obvious to me that the main obstacle to peace over there is nothing more than a rogue terrorist group that obviously doesn't want peace.

Posted by Psionic on Jun-11-2003 14:48:

Like I posted a couple days ago, I think anti-terrorist Palestinians and Israeli forces should kick the crap out of Hamas.

Posted by Eugene on Jun-11-2003 15:11:

at least 9 people killed on that bus. according to latest estimates

Posted by occrider on Jun-11-2003 15:33:

quote:
Originally posted by Galapidate
Like I posted a couple days ago, I think anti-terrorist Palestinians and Israeli forces should kick the crap out of Hamas.

Hmmm this happened so soon after the Israeli counter-attacks that it makes you think this operation was set up even before the Israelis tried to kill that senior hamas leader.

Posted by Shakka on Jun-11-2003 16:36:

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Hmmm this happened so soon after the Israeli counter-attacks that it makes you think this operation was set up even before the Israelis tried to kill that senior hamas leader.

Good point. Latest I heard on this new attack was 30 casualties, but of course these numbers are always subject to revisions.

Posted by JM on Jun-11-2003 17:44:

shiiiet! i read this morning and i was aggravated....

fucking militant radical busters. Fcuk, i'm all for these guys to get along and live side-by-side...but just dont see how if this persists.

>JM<

Posted by Izzy on Jun-11-2003 17:56:

AP reports 16 dead and nearly 70 wounded
i must say im in a really bad mood now so sorry if i go off ranting here.
i cant see how anyone in their right mind can equate and compare israel's policy of targeting hamas officials who incite hate, brainwash others to kill and who have basicly declared war agianst israel with acts such as these. i mean what lower form of human entity walks onto a bus and blows himself up to kill as many civilians as possible, no matter what race, creed, sex, religion, ethnicity or age they may be. time and time agian israel has shown it is willing to acheive peace from sadat & begin, hussien & rabin, arafat & rabin, peres, barak. i belive all people desire peace and security. israel doesnt want to live in a state of terror like this. the obsticle i see is fantisism and terror. something needs to be done. diplomacy has never worked agiasnt terror, examples being chechnya, afghanistan, iraq... someone needs to just destroy the complete infrustructure of terror and wipe out any reminance of islamic jihad, hizbollah and hamas - they do the world no good exsisting. the new palestinian authority must prove to the world they are responsible enough to have thier own country and help rid themselves of such evils. something must be done, seeing as terror is the root of the problem i hope that abbas and sharon can stand together and actively and physically destroy the breeding grounds of such acts....

sorry for the mindless rant

Posted by TranceGiant on Jun-11-2003 18:08:

Terrorism is like rain: it appears regularly and totally unprovoked. Attacks like these require comprehensive, meticulous and long preparation, we're talking in terms of weeks here. Yesterday's failed attack against Rantisi was therefore totally irrelavant to the bus bombing. It's simple: Terrorists cannot be negotiated with, they must be eliminated like bugs.

Posted by Luke Terry on Jun-11-2003 19:56:

was this a suicide or a plant?

Posted by Shakka on Jun-11-2003 20:29:

Suicide bomber. Apparently an 18 year old student. yeah, real smart. Student of what??? What are they teaching over there?

Posted by Revolution on Jun-11-2003 21:01:

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
Suicide bomber. Apparently an 18 year old student. yeah, real smart. Student of what??? What are they teaching over there?

Killing people 101.
And for those of who think that Hamas should just 'get the crap kicked out of them', you're idealistic beyond belief. Do you know that Hamas has been around since it broke from the Muslim Brotherhood in 1987? Do you know how many covert incursions there have been by the Isreali Moussad into Palestinian terrotories to try and end Hamas? If it would be as easy as you say, don't you think somone would have already done it? C'mon, think seriously. This is not a small-time organized crime group. This is a well-funded, well-armed group who are not going to cease until they achieve their objective, te complete destruction of the Israeli state.

Posted by occrider on Jun-11-2003 21:17:

quote:
Originally posted by Revolution
Killing people 101.
And for those of who think that Hamas should just 'get the crap kicked out of them', you're idealistic beyond belief. Do you know that Hamas has been around since it broke from the Muslim Brotherhood in 1987? Do you know how many covert incursions there have been by the Isreali Moussad into Palestinian terrotories to try and end Hamas? If it would be as easy as you say, don't you think somone would have already done it? C'mon, think seriously. This is not a small-time organized crime group. This is a well-funded, well-armed group who are not going to cease until they achieve their objective, te complete destruction of the Israeli state.

The Israelis cannot destroy Hamas ... at best they can kill a few leaders, kill a few supporters, and limit the number of attacks against it. The true destruction of Hamas can only be accomplished by the Palestinians themselves ... in much the same way that Ben-Gurion eliminated the extremist Israeli terrorist groups in the 40's. And the Palestinians must take action on this issue if they wish a state of their own.

Posted by Revolution on Jun-11-2003 21:38:

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
The Israelis cannot destroy Hamas ... at best they can kill a few leaders, kill a few supporters, and limit the number of attacks against it. The true destruction of Hamas can only be accomplished by the Palestinians themselves ... in much the same way that Ben-Gurion eliminated the extremist Israeli terrorist groups in the 40's. And the Palestinians must take action on this issue if they wish a state of their own.

That's what I'm saying. The Israelis will never do it y themselves, but possibly with the help of pro-peace palestinians

Posted by DrUg_Tit0 on Jun-11-2003 21:49:

Maybe they should just kill or caputre the Hamas leader who is now in hospital. He's just sitting there and invoking for more suicide attacks. But I guess the more hamas officials you kill, the more palestinians will hate Israel. A very tricky situation indeed. The real problem is those idiots are bent on destruction of Israel instead of creating a free Palestine, while the average palestinian mob doesn't see that and thinks they're fighting for the liberation instead.

Posted by Shakka on Jun-11-2003 23:15:

quote:
Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
Maybe they should just kill or caputre the Hamas leader who is now in hospital. He's just sitting there and invoking for more suicide attacks. But I guess the more hamas officials you kill, the more palestinians will hate Israel. A very tricky situation indeed. The real problem is those idiots are bent on destruction of Israel instead of creating a free Palestine, while the average palestinian mob doesn't see that and thinks they're fighting for the liberation instead.

That's a good point. Why the fuck don't they just go in the hospital and kill or capture him? He's right there on the the damn TV.

Posted by Luke Terry on Jun-11-2003 23:27:

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
Suicide bomber. Apparently an 18 year old student. yeah, real smart. Student of what??? What are they teaching over there?

fuck only knows, to be willing to kill yourself for relatively nothing like this is just stupid beyond belief. bad parenting.

Posted by Revolution on Jun-12-2003 00:47:

quote:
Originally posted by Project T
fuck only knows, to be willing to kill yourself for relatively nothing like this is just stupid beyond belief. bad parenting.

hardly. more like brainwashing. monsters aren't born, they're created. and for those people (i.e. Hamas, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, etc.) there is a VERY strong cause. The Palestinians may be stupid in their own way, but there is a reason for these attacks.

Posted by intrinsic on Jun-12-2003 02:58:

Hamas is just ruining every ounce of legitimacy (of what little there was in the first place) to their cause as they continue to commit these killings. This is getting outright rediculous. Peace and a recognized state will never be achieved this way. If you ask me, I think that:

1) Hamas leaders are probably trying to hold on to their power. They see that once a Palestinian state is created they will no longer have people to control, manipulate and use.

2) I think some means of force needs to be applied to Hamas and the other groups. However, Israel should take no part in this forceful removal of the terrorist groups. It should be done by either (as Occrider mentioned) the Palestinian people, or some other Arab nation.

Posted by nic01445 on Jun-12-2003 05:15:

quote:
Originally posted by intrinsic
2) I think some means of force needs to be applied to Hamas and the other groups. However, Israel should take no part in this forceful removal of the terrorist groups. It should be done by either (as Occrider mentioned) the Palestinian people, or some other Arab nation.

why shouldnt israel take part? they should look at ending the Hamas as "working together" rather than "Israel trying to end any Palestinian legitimacy." i know it sounds idealistic, but hey, thats my rant.

*edit* "they" refers to israel, palestine, and nations/groups supporting palestine.

Posted by occrider on Jun-12-2003 06:06:

Posted by intrinsic on Jun-12-2003 07:30:

quote:
Originally posted by nic01445
why shouldnt israel take part? they should look at ending the Hamas as "working together" rather than "Israel trying to end any Palestinian legitimacy." i know it sounds idealistic, but hey, thats my rant.

*edit* "they" refers to israel, palestine, and nations/groups supporting palestine.

If Israel attempts to come in and dismantle Hamas by force it will definately be seen as a sign of aggression by the Palestinian people. I understand that there is no one more deserving to forcefully end Hamas's existence than Israel, but whats the point when you will have the rest of Palestinian population against you as well.

Sadly, I have learned over my 22 years taht some people will only learn/stop by force only. Talk will not always get the job done. If the next cease fire attempt fails due to the militants actions, I would love to see the UN Security council step in and do its job. Not sure if this is within their jurisdiction or not, but something has to be done about the militants (the same should apply to Israel if they are to blame). This has gone on long enough. Hell, if they ask for volunteers to go in and help force these people out, ill gladly volunteer. Im tired of these children dying for violent causes, disputes over land, and peoples unwillingness to live next to each other as brothers because of differences in religion. Especially religions that believe in the same God.

ill stop there... got a final tomorrow. pzeace.

EDIT: oh yeah, and what occrider said too.

Posted by nic01445 on Jun-12-2003 08:52:

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
It can only be Palestinians because there is too much resentment against Israel. If Palestinians see fellow Palestinians eliminating extremists they would probably see that as an effort to consolidate control and achieve peace. If Palestinians see Israel eliminating extremists they'll look upon that as further oppression and racism against Palestinians which would only strengthen the extremist camp ...

Edit: And if they see Palestinians cooperating with Israelis to eliminate extremists they'll view those Palestinians and Abbas as traitors who are only weakening the cause. I should work for the state department ... I think my policy analyses are not bad.

what if israel only provided financial aide to any anti-hamas palestinian organizations, without providing any manpower? I mean, if the anti-hamas palestinians are making the initiative, and israel just follows them by funding their cause, then it would be the israelis cooperating with the palestinians, rather than vice versa. palestine would thus recieve the credit for eliminating the hamas, and problem solved. or am i still dreaming?

Posted by intrinsic on Jun-12-2003 08:52:

http://www.canoe.ca/CalgaryNews/cs.cs-06-12-0007.html

quote:

To that I asked her two easy questions. "What do you think would happen if Israel laid down its arms?" I asked.

She shrugged, so I answered for her. "Israel would cease to exist very quickly," I said. She nodded in agreement.

Then I asked her, "what do you think would happen if the Palestinians laid down their arms?"

"Peace would break out," she answered.

saw this... not a really good article, but the one thing that got me was the last 5 lines.

Dunno if they would cease to exist, but they would definately not be left alone.

Posted by Luke Terry on Jun-12-2003 10:03:

quote:
Originally posted by Revolution
hardly. more like brainwashing. monsters aren't born, they're created. and for those people (i.e. Hamas, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, etc.) there is a VERY strong cause. The Palestinians may be stupid in their own way, but there is a reason for these attacks.

true, but many of the terrorists grow up then join these groups, namely how a lot of al quaida operates.

Posted by Yoepus on Jun-12-2003 15:14:

quote:
Originally posted by nic01445
what if israel only provided financial aide to any anti-hamas palestinian organizations, without providing any manpower? I mean, if the anti-hamas palestinians are making the initiative, and israel just follows them by funding their cause, then it would be the israelis cooperating with the palestinians, rather than vice versa. palestine would thus recieve the credit for eliminating the hamas, and problem solved. or am i still dreaming?

What anti-hamas palaestinian organization?? There is none! You guys are deluding yourself believing their is actually a meaningful anti-terror loving Palestinian population with a voice.

Currently Hamas is more popular then their Prime Minister Abbas! You can't act against an organization your people love. Thats the problem, you need to make the people understand terror is not acceptable, Hamas is not acceptable. The Palestinians will not act against themselves because they do not want to upset the LARGE majority by going after Hamas.

So ya your dreaming...

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