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Advice needed - Harmonic Mixing

Not sure If this is the correct place to ask this. So, many appologies if this is in the wrong place or has been covered already.

I have been mixing for quite a few years now and my beat matching is pretty much perfect.

I would aslo consider myself to have a realatively good ear for determining which tunes work together nicely.

I understand that one way to obtain different effects when mixing is to programme tracks in a particualr order with keys and key changes that compliment the outgoing tracks.

In order for me to get a better understanding of the theory behind why some of my tracks work well and why some dont I would like to work out what keys the melodys and bass lines are in my tracks.

I know I could work out what key it is in by using a keybord over the top.

My question:

Is there any piece of software that can analyse either a .wav, .mp3 or the audio itself to determine what key it is in.

I have seen the service offered by Camalot sounds that lists the particular BPM and Key of thousands of tracks. However the type of music I play is often Promos and quite obscure tracks so this would be of little use to me.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance,

Luke

As far as I know, there is not cheap (meaning under $500) piece of software that will tell you that. My advise is that you look around Amazon.com etc for a book on sound or music theory. Make sure that you don't get some really advanced book, just start off with the basics, which includes harmonics.

My theory isn't terrible I know a little back from my guitar lesson days.

If you know of any software or hardware that can do this please tell.

Price is irrelevent.

Thank you,

Luke

Get a korg tuner ($20), and hum the first note of the bassline or melody to get the key (this is it for 98% of tracks). You can also try putting it next to your subwoofer, but this doesn't work as much.

Of course, depending on how the record is pitched, the original key may not matter. The only surefire way to find records in tune is to practice mixing with them. When you pitch a record 5% up, it's gonna be a quartertone off, so even if you mix it in with a record of the same pitch, it'll sound bad.

And the key isn't necesarily as important as the scale too in some places (which you really can only hear).

If you're spinning live, just test out the record before hand to see if it's in key. If not, swap it with something else. I see a lot of DJ's do this.

does the harmonics of tracks affect weather the bass of two tracks phase/flange each other? im having trouble transitioning the bass of tracks without any noticible phasing.

Thaks very much for the advice.

Would I be correct in thinking then;

If I was to pitch all of my tracks up or down to say, for example, 140 BPM then work out which keys the music is closest to. I would be able to find tracks that would work harmonically well together.

Say i had a track that was structured around the key of C Major at 140BPM If I was to bring a new record in I could get different changes in mood if I were to say change to the relative minor key (A minor in this case) when overlaying a new melody or bassline?

I do understand that with enough practice with the same reords I will get a good natural feel for what can and cant be put together.

Im a theory man and I like to think about these thingsl.

Luke

quote:

Originally posted by The Orange Man Thaks very much for the advice. Would I be correct in thinking then; If I was to pitch all of my tracks up or down to say, for example, 140 BPM then work out which keys the music is closest to. I would be able to find tracks that would work harmonically well together. Say i had a track that was structured around the key of C Major at 140BPM If I was to bring a new record in I could get different changes in mood if I were to say change to the relative minor key (A minor in this case) when overlaying a new melody or bassline? I do understand that with enough practice with the same reords I will get a good natural feel for what can and cant be put together. Im a theory man and I like to think about these thingsl. Luke

This is good in theory (C major to A minor) but....
Shift it off a few cents due to pitch changes (one record is 140 bpm and the other say 136) and it sounds not so nice.
Listen to the attached file. First part is with Am coming into CM, and the second is the same thing, with the Am part a 40 cents or so astray. Doesn't sound too pretty.

sample

So, technically, you could do harmonic mixing by key, but the records need to be really close in bpm (within 1.5% to 2% at most...) or you'll run into that effect. You could calculate what it'd be closest to as well, but 20+ cents and it starts to sound off. This isn't really useful live though because you'd be changing the pitch to match the pitch of something that maybe already be 3% off, or whatever (you could kinda guess what's it's closest to, I suppose, but you still run a large chance of it being too far off and getting it wrong).
Another thing to watch out for is stuff like accidentals and scales. Although by key it may be okay, some notes may clash badly between the two songs.

Also: Flanging? Could you maybe give us a sample? I'm not sure what you mean.

great thread guys

there is no cheap hardware to do this, its just knowing your tunes really, musical knowledge is a bonus. for example, gibbo knows shite all about music theory and will openly admit it but he knows his tunes so just about all of his mixes are harmonically spot on. also you don't wanna just fuss about the key of a track, you want to think of the original bassline note, because they are the ones that are gonna come together, for example most corsten tunes start on G or A basslines, so they work well together, and it would sound putting a C bassline tune over them if you get what i mean. mind im probably wrong, but i hope u get the idea heh.

all in all, just do what sounds good and use LOTS of eq

Luke

Key Detection Software

Good news guys: The latest version of Mixmeister (MM5) mixing software now includes a key detection utility. Download a FREE trial version from mixmeister.com. Although it has its limitations, you can't beat the price!

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Nuclear This is good in theory (C major to A minor) but.... Shift it off a few cents due to pitch changes (one record is 140 bpm and the other say 136) and it sounds not so nice. Listen to the attached file. First part is with Am coming into CM, and the second is the same thing, with the Am part a 40 cents or so astray. Doesn't sound too pretty. sample So, technically, you could do harmonic mixing by key, but the records need to be really close in bpm (within 1.5% to 2% at most...) or you'll run into that effect. You could calculate what it'd be closest to as well, but 20+ cents and it starts to sound off. This isn't really useful live though because you'd be changing the pitch to match the pitch of something that maybe already be 3% off, or whatever (you could kinda guess what's it's closest to, I suppose, but you still run a large chance of it being too far off and getting it wrong). Another thing to watch out for is stuff like accidentals and scales. Although by key it may be okay, some notes may clash badly between the two songs. Also: Flanging? Could you maybe give us a sample? I'm not sure what you mean.

"phase/flange effect"

i think it's the effect that happens when two sounds in two different tracks cancel each other

example: i'm sure it has happenned to every single one of us...

while mixing the kickdrums of the two tracks sound so low volume, (just like their bass is cutoff) and might skip out for a sec and sound soooooo boomy (like their bass is all the way up)
and it goes like this all the time. (i hate it when it happens)
the bad thing about this is that you 're not able to know what is going to happen while beatmatching...(you can't predict if the two track will phase each other's kickdrums or not)

try this: put two copies of the same record and start them spinning at the same time, same pitch.
then you'll hear this "flange-phase" effect going on. you'll notice that skipping out one of the tracks a little off, it will change the "wide" parameter of the effect.

effect machines do exactly the same thing, only they can use more than one copy of the sound sample & change the pitch of several of them too.

i hope that is the effect you're talking about, it happens many times with other tracks

Warrior Warrior DJ HOOLIGAN REMIX Am
Taskforce Touch Me THRILLSEEKERS REMIX Am
System F The Sonnet ORIGINAL MIX Am
Goldenscan Sunrise RONSKI SPEED REMIX Am
Alizee Soft Skin STEVE HELSTRIP REMIX Am
Astura Orions Belt ORIGINAL Am
Goldenscan Of Our Times BURUFUNK REMIX Am
Matt Lamanen Flakes SLUSNIK LUNA REMIX Am
Delerium After All SVENSON & GIELEN REMIX Am
Three Drives Carrera 2 DJ MONTANA REMIX Am
Major League Wonder Where You Are ORIGINAL REMIX Am
Goldenscan Sunrise LIQUID LIFE REMIX Am
Tiesto In My Memory Am
Energy 52 Caf� Del Mar MARCO V REMIX Am
Indiana In My Veins ALL MIXES Am
Insigma Insigma Am
Ralphie B Vs Airbase Massive Am
Joshua Ryan WAY OUT WEST REMIX Am
Three Drives LOWTECH REMIX Am
BBE 7 DAYS AND 1 WEEK FERRY CORSTEN REMIX A#m
MARCO V SIMULATED ? REMIX A#m
Meteor seven universal music Dumonde remix A#m
Scooter Weekend A#m
System F Rock Your Body Original A#m
Remy Pumped Up Original Bm
Remy Pumped Up Mike Vandenberg remix Bm
Combined Strength Touched Greg Murray remix Bm
System F Spaceman Matti Laamanen remix Bm
Art of Trance Madagascar Domi nation remix Bm
Art of Trance Madagascar ferry corsten remix Bm
Art of Trance Madagascar Original remix Bm
Art of Trance Madagascar Kumara remix Bm
Art of Trance Madagascar Transa remix Bm
Art of Trance Madagascar Cygnus X remix Bm
Binary Finary 1998 Ronski Speed remix Bm
Matt Darey From Russia With Love Bm
Ocean Lab Beautiful Together Original mix Bm
Push Journey of Life Original mix Bm
Push Journey of Life Rank 1 mix Bm
Gouryella Ligaya FERRY CORSTEN REMIX Cm
Delerium After All VORTEX REMIX Cm
Fragma Toca Me NATIOUS REMIX Cm
Three Drives Carrera 2 SHAH & PEDRO REMIX Cm
Three Drives Greece 2000 G & M PROJECT MIX Cm
Billie Ray Martin Honey ABOVE & BEYOND REMIX Cm
Binary Finary 1999 GOURYELLA REMIX Cm
Jam X & De Leon Mind Made Up RANK 1 REMIX Cm
Eon Talk to Me ORIGINAL MIX Cm
Gouryella Gouryella ORIGINAL MIX Cm
Kate Bush & Infusion Running Up that Hill Cm
Oceanforce Euphoric Dream HEMSTOCK & JENNINGS REMIX Cm
Pet Shop Boys Home and Dry BLANK & JONES REMIX C#m
Andy Jay Powell Skyliner HIVER & HAMMER REMIX C#m
Ralphie B Massive D. RAMIREZ REMIX C#m
Tomcraft Loneliness C#m
System F Soul on Soul ORIGINAL Dm
Armin Van Buuren Song For the Ocean ORIGINAL Dm
Infusion Legacy JUNKIE XL REMIX Dm
Paul Van Dyk Feat Hemstock & Jennings Nothing But You FAITHLESS REMIX Dm
Frankie goes To Hollywood Two Tribes ROB SEARLE REMIX Dm
Cass Mind Rewind MOMU REMIX Dm
Lunatic Asylum Cabal (Energy Flow) ALL MIXES Dm
Nylon If you Love Me ROADBLOCK REMIX Dm
Rank 1 Breathing ORIGINAL Dm
Sonorous Second Sun MIRCO DE GOVIA REMIX Dm
Starkid Crayons ORIGINAL Dm
Airbase Theme from Rock ORIGINAL D#m
Coldplay Clocks PSYCLONE REMIX D#m
Kyau Vs Albert Velvet morning MIRCO DE GOVIA REMIX D#m
Paul Van Dyk Nothing But You PVD CLUB MIX D#m
PULSER MY RELIGION ORIGINAL D#m
PULSER MY RELIGION LAN REMIX D#m
SOLAR STONE SOLARCOASTER GREG MURRAY REMIX D#m
Armin Van Buuren Yet Another Day DJ Shah remix Em
Moby In My Heart Ferry Corsten remix Em
Corderoy Sweetest Dreams Greg Murray remix Em
Grayarea One for The Road Gabriel & Dresden remix Em
Jan Johnston Calling Your Name THRILLSEEKERS REMIX Em
Paul Oakenfold Starry Eyed Surprise OLIVER LIEB REMIX Em
System F Soul on Soul BARTHEZZ REMIX Em
Underworld Born Slippy WHITELABEL REMIX Fm
Kansai Remember This Night ALL MIXES Fm
Mike Shiver Feelings ALL MIXES Fm
Blank Jones The Nightfly TRANSA REMIX Fm
Energy 52 Caf� Del Mar SOLAR STONE REMIX Fm
Riva Suddenly RIVA REMIX Fm
Sonorous Glass Garden RONSKI SPEED REMIX Fm
Sonorous Protonic ORIGINAL Fm
Sonorous Protonic RONSKI SPEED REMIX Fm
Underworld Two Months Off KING UNIQUE SUNSPOTS VOCAL MIX Fm
Aly & Fila Eye of Horus ORIGINAL F#m
Aly & Fila Eye of Horus RONSKI SPEED REMIX F#m
Fragma Man in the Moon CLUB MIX F#m
Lost Witness Red Sun Rising LANGE REMIX F#m
Marco V Simulated TOMCRAFT REMIX F#m
Matt Laamanen Flakes FERRY CORSTEN REMIX F#m
Matt Laamanen Flakes ORIGINAL F#m
Oliver Lieb presents Smoked Metropolis F#m
Warrior If you want me ANTILLAS CLUB MIX F#m
Tears For Fears Mad World MARTIN EYERER REMIX F#m
Gouryella Tenshi CJ STONE AND KRABBA KROLL REMIX Gm
System F Together ORIGINAL MIX Gm
Delerium After all HISHAM PRESTON Gm
Delerium After all SATOSHI TOMIIE REMIX Gm
NRC Here Comes the Rain PUSH VOCAL MIX Gm
NRC Here Comes the Rain PUSH INSTRUMENTAL MIX Gm
4x4 Indigo ORIGINAL MIX Gm
Klea Tic Toc MAGIK MUZIK REMIX Gm
Nalin & Kane Beachball TALL PAUL REMIX Gm
Ralphie B Massive FILTERHEADZ REMIX Gm
Ralphie B Massive MIRCO DE GOVIA REMIX Gm
Kid Vicious Proceed OBSESSIVE REMAKE Gm
Rusch & Murray Epic ORIGINAL MIX Gm
Rusch & Murray Epic ABOVE & BEYOND REMIX Gm
Sasha Expander ORIGINAL MIX Gm
System F Cry ORIGINAL MIX G#m
Ronski Speed Iris ORIGINAL MIX G#m
Ronski Speed Iris JOHN ASKEW REMIX G#m
Three Drives Greece 2000 PLASTIC ANGEL REMIX G#m
Underworld Two Months Off JOHN CIATONE REMIX G#m
Armin Van Buuren & Airwave Slipstream ORIGINAL MIX G#m
System F Together ORIGINAL MIX G#m
Major League Wonder Where you are TRANSA REMIX G#m
Motorcycle As the Rush Comes On GABRIEL & DRESDEN REMIX G#m
Groove Park Carousel FIRE & ICE REMIX G#m
Indigo Division MOSHIC REMIx G#m
Indigo Sensacion MAIN MIX G#m

Harmonic Mixing: Pitch Variations

One major advantage of using a CD player with "Master Tempo"/"Key Adjust" circuits, or mixing software such as MixMeister, is that major variations in speed do not affect harmonic compatibility. An A-Minor song naturally at 135 BPM will easily mix with another A-Minor song naturally at 143 BPM. A 6% speed increase would normally raise the key from A-Minor to B-Flat Minor (A.K.A. A-Sharp Minor) without this pitch/key compensation.

I learned the hard way, though, that compensation built into CD players normally has greater side effects (distortion) than compensation included in mixing software. I found the worst distortion in outboard pitch adjustment hardware, since that hardware is not normally intended for full range pitch adjustment. It is usually used by studios to correct vocal or single instrument pitch variations.

in the last few hours, I tried harmonic mixing for the first time and...my oh my...its like a whole new dimension into the world of mixing. Once you hear a harmonic transition you'd think beat/phrase mixing is for the average dj.

A guy from futureproducers is running a free database of harmonic content. http://www.harmonizer.co.uk/

It could be very useful. Once you registered you can enter your findings in the database so it's accessible for everyone.

BTW Nuclear, a 5.9% difference is a semitone, not a quartertone.

Harmonic mixing can indeed be very powerful. I'm still amazed some people say, I'll stick to beatmatching and phrase matching, it's more than enough... But if you're someone that always wants to push the limits further and further, I think harmonic mixing is a step you need to take.

Hmmm...maybe this is where I'm lacking at. Beat/phrase matching should be a essential for every DJ, but harmonics takes it to another level.
Maybe somebody can give a demo with a recent compilation, like Nyana(which claims to have been mixed on turntables live by Tiesto)and determine the notes of the songs.
How do you know what note to mix into, or what pitch deleivers what note? I've been trying to get at this for a while now, but didn't know where to ask or how to ask.
Great thread.

ok, from what i can gather the only difficult thing is finding out what key the record is in. As once you've done that you can just use the numbering system on the overlay chart to make sure the mix is harmonic.

Now comes the stupid question.

Would someone like a piano teacher be able to key dance music tunes? Cause then anyone with only a few hundred records could get them all keyed within a matter of hours for prob only like 60-80 pounds....

Re: "How do you know what note to mix into, or what pitch deleivers what note? I've been trying to get at this for a while now, but didn't know where to ask or how to ask."

The basic concept in harmonic mixing is that you mix songs that have compatible keys instead of trying to mix notes. A key is basically a pattern of related notes, centered around one basic note. Some keys work together better than other keys. You only need to be concerned with the keys of individual songs, and which keys are harmonically compatible.

Identifying compatible keys is as simple as telling time if you use the Easymix System, because you do not have to memorize compatible keys. Every key is assigned a number from 1 to 12, called a "keycode." To find harmonically compatible songs from any key, just find another song within one keycode of your outgoing song. For example, from keycode 7, you would select another song with a keycode between 6 and 8. (Each keycode actually has a suffix, such as "7A" or "7B" to indicate major or minor key, but you need not worry about that at this point.) The process is described in detail at http://www.harmonic-mixing.com.

The only other major concern is song speed because changing the speed of a song usually changes the key. If you use key controllers built in some software (such as MixMeister). CD players, and a recent Denon turntable, then speed differences may be ignored because the key controller will stabilize the key regardless of speed.

Re: "How do you know what note to mix into, or what pitch deleivers what note? I've been trying to get at this for a while now, but didn't know where to ask or how to ask."

There are at least four different ways to obtain key information:

(1) Use an uncontrolled website such as harmonizer (previously mentioned). Anyone may post key information here, so quality control is limited. Since it's free, you get what you pay for.

(2) Use key detection software built in DJ mixing software such as MixMeister. However, some songs are difficult for such software to reliably assess. You may download a free trial version of MixMeister 5, with key detection, at http://www.mixmeister.com.

(3) You may use an actual musician to key music. Depending on the skill of the musician, results may be more accurate than those from free websites or current software. There is often a steep learning curve for musicians, because much current music does not adhere to traditional music structure. Once again, you get what you pay for.

(4) Use a commercial harmonic mixing information service, such as that offered at harmonic-mixing.com, with a 46,000 record database. The downside is that it is a fee service, and there is always a lag between music release and keying. Some music will never be keyed. The upside is that music is keyed by a pianist/bassist with a Masters in music, who teaches at the Los Angeles Music Academy, and who has been keying music for over ten years. Accuracy is close to 99% (nobody is perfect).

Hope this helps!

Sample Harmonic Mixes

Here is a very thin slice of database information: songs at 140 BPM, all in the key of D-Minor. They should mix perfectly with each other:


IDOL, BILLY: HEROIN (DURGA DEATH)
ASTROSPIDER: RITMISTA (N-03)
VATH, SVEN: L'ESPERANZA (RAINDANCE MIX)
HARAJUKU: ON MY OWN (DH-9)
TWENTY-FOUR 7: KEEP ON TRYING (ET-4)
GEM: FEEL YOU TONIGHT
CAPTAIN G.Q.: ROCKIN' THROUGH THE NIGHT
Y.O.M.C.: GREAT FEELINGS (FEELING GREAT)
BBE: FLASH (RADIO EDIT)
WHITE LABEL (2): HOW MUCH IS THE FLESH?
HIGHLANDER, THE: DIGNIFIED (DJ A/M TOUGH MIX)
GIGOLO: AL PARADIS (MATT DAREY MIX)
AXEL: PARADISO (DIGITAL MONKEYS RMX)
KOOL & MIGHTY: VIVID VIBE
SUNPITCH: SUNPITCH (ORIGINAL MIX)
FAST: TRANSMISSION (ORIGINAL MIX)
FORD FEAT. ROBIN FOX: WONDERLAND (MOMENTS IN BREAKS)
RED: HEAVEN & EARTH
BEATFREAK: THE SOUND (THE KGBONGO MIX)
DERUYTER, YVES: BACK TO EARTH (RAVE MIX)
RED: HEAVEN & EARTH (DEJURE VOCAL)
DELERIUM F/LEIGH NASH: INNOCENTE (LOST WITNESS RMX)
BALEARIC BILL: DESTINATION SUNSHINE (12" ORIG
NAUSICA: CELTICA (MEDLEY)(HTXL5)
MISS MAGIC: OH YEAH!!
A-C-E: STAIRWAY TO HEAVEN
MADONNA: SKY FITS HEAVEN (SASHA REMIX)
M TIK: DON'T STOP ME NOW (DUB MIX)
VAN LINDEN, MARC: CLUBBIEMUS (EXT. MIX)
PARADISE: RISING SUN (FRANKIE P ACOUSTIC
LASGO: SOMETHING (EXT/PETER LUTS RMX)
FRANK T.R.A.X.: NEBUCHAN (O.R.G.A.N. MIX)
PLUG 'N' PLAY: TIME TO BOB (ORIGINAL CLUB MIX
ENEMY MINE: KNOW YOUR ENEMIES (KAZE PROJEC
COCO APTNESS: MIRACLE ANSWER (PUSSYCATS FAVO
PPK: RESURRECTION
ALL STARS: IS THERE SOMETHING...(ALMIGHTY
BLANK & JONES: DJ CULTURE (NEW CLUB MIX)
VISIOR, ANDRE: SPEED UP (LUVSTRUCK)(GREY C. F
DJ PRINCE & JUSTIN K: GOT TO HAVE (JUSTIN K + DJ PRI
AURORA: DAY IT RAINED FOREVER (FLIP &
G., DARIO: HEAVEN IS CLOSER (DJ MYTHOS &
FLOORKILLER: DANCEFLOORKILLER (SHARAZ REMIX
DEMODE: NOW I'M FREE (ORIGINAL MIX)
CHEVARA: MYSTERY (DJ SPOKE MIX)
FLOORKILLER: DANCEFLOORKILLER (SHARAZ REMIX
DJ BASS - T: HERE COMES THAT SOUND (CLUB MI
DEE DEE: THE ONE (EXT/4CLUBBERS REMIX)
LOVE INC.: YOU'RE A SUPERSTAR (REZONANCE
LASGO: PRAY (PETER LUTS REMIX)
DJ SAMMY: UNBREAKABLE (ALBUM)
DJ SAMMY: VIVE EL PRESENTE (ALBUM)
DJ SAMMY: TAKE ME BACK TO HEAVEN (ALBUM)

Hey Camelot, thanks so much for that. I know now what it is(even though I have yet to try it)
Can you give an example with a couple of songs that match each other?

have been trying out harmonic mixing lately and it's hard to believe people could not do it. Sounds amazing when done and there isn't much thought required.

Push - Journey of life
Neo and farina - binary refined
Plastic Boy - Silver bath

these songs when mixed together just sound like they were made for each other. Hold your mixes for 5-6 phrases without a single clash.


The only prob i have with camelot is that I don't see how I could get my money's worth. I only have about 200 records plus cds and am constantly buying new ones. So even if camelot had all my old records, my new records and the ones I'd want to play the most would be unkeyed for a while and then you only get one update a month.

Yes, I agree that lead time is a major limitation for DJs who specialize in cutting edge music. For this reason I recommend everyone download the free MixMeister 5 trial version to key their new music. Although it may not be as accurate as our service, it is MUCH better than random programming. BTW: Although we only guarantee one update (100 songs) per month, we average 16 updates (3000 songs) per year.

For DJohn: Guess our posts "crossed in the mail," or perhaps I anticipated your request.

This is a great thread.

I must say I agree 100% with regards to the need for harmonic mixing.

I have been doing it for quite some time now and have found that it made my DJ experience more rewarding.

I have also found that it does a couple of things with regards to the dance floor. It makes it that much easier to sneak tunes in for starters. People like to be surprised and two well matched tunes can do just that with stealth.

I might have missed it earlier in the thread, in which case forgive me for repeating what's already been said. But you can also create energy by changing key. If you move up one step let's say from Fm to F#m you will create a burst of energy in the music. Admitedly this does throw the beauty of a perfect in key mix out of the window but can create good results in it's own right.

With regards to software that picks out the key for you... hmmm. I must admit that I feel a little wary of stuff like that. In my humble opinion, a little knowledge of music will only help your DJ skills. All you need to know is 12 different minor chords as you don't really tend to get much trance in major keys. Get to know a little music and understand the 'mechanics' of it. You never know what doors it may open for you...

Bottom line:
Music effects our emotions, so a good DJ plays on them by using different keys. Wonderful innit...

Cheers
Nemesis44

Amazing topic. I learn something new everytime I come back to this thread.
I need an example or some kind of aural sample to know what harmonic mixing is about...can somebody try a small mix or like I said earlier, give a key by key description of a recent compilation?

I think when you mix in key, you know it, because it just sounds so much better. You can even have the beat matching and phase off and it will still sound good! The energy/lift it creates is great too.

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