Reply to This is disgusting thread

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Posted by occrider on Aug-21-2003 18:36:

Reply to This is disgusting thread

I can guess why it was closed because it typically started down the flaming path. I too was thoroughly disgusted by the pics, but as I said before, the only people you convince by pictures are those too stupid to read. So after doing a search for any news about the topic I finally stumbled on one italian site after 20 minutes of searching. Then I smacked myself in the head and realized that I should have just checked snopes. The pictures aren't faked, however all the websites I found that posted those sequence of events with the typical "Israelis are evil" message failed to include one last picture that I think is somewhat pertinent to the entire chain of events:

The implications obviously being that there appears to be something dangerous under the dead guy.

For both sides of the story, whether you believe it or not:

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/saleh.htm

If the guy wasn't a terrorist about to blow up a bomb then I condemn the Israelis, if he was then shame on those attempting to use this for their propoganda purposes. Either which way, I hate being manipulated as that original site intended.

Edit: Oh and this didn't occurr recentely in 2003 as implied, it's old news from last year.

Posted by rizo on Aug-21-2003 18:53:

good read. i think the idf would of felt the bomb or even set it off when they searched for weapons on him. also he was shot 30mins after the arrest, accoring to 10 eyewitnesses. dunno what to really conclude but in the end, both sides are still as bad as each other, none is gooder that the other.

Posted by Izzy on Aug-21-2003 19:12:

quote:
Originally posted by rizen dunno what to really conclude

and that was the point most of us were trying to make, however seemed like most people had already concluded israel was being guilty, based on one stream of pics from an obscure website.

i have still yet to see one crediable report of an israeli government official or soldier intentionaly killing an innocent palestinian. i have however seen members of palestinian organizations intentionaly kill innocent israeli's, and therefore i believe one side is better then the other.

Posted by occrider on Aug-21-2003 19:12:

quote:
Originally posted by rizen
good read. i think the idf would of felt the bomb or even set it off when they searched for weapons on him. also he was shot 30mins after the arrest, accoring to 10 eyewitnesses. dunno what to really conclude but in the end, both sides are still as bad as each other, none is gooder that the other.

True, except we don't know how he was searched. It looks like his clothes were cut away from his back when he was on his stomach so something could still be attached to his front side. We don't even know if they did a full search of him before he supposedely tried setting off the device. We don't know the time of events, the full sequence of events, or really how any of it went down. Did we miss something that happened in between the last two pictures that would explain the shooting? At any rate snopes said it best when they say:

"Without having all the photographs at hand, a guide to demonstrate their correct sequencing, and more non-partisan news reports or accounts of the incident, we can only state that these pictures are, as the BBC termed them, "graphic, but inconclusive."

What's that saying? Pictures are worth a thousand words but require a thousand words to explain?

Posted by Izzy on Aug-21-2003 19:14:

btw thanks for taking the time to research this occrider

Posted by occrider on Aug-21-2003 19:47:

quote:
Originally posted by Izzy
i have still yet to see one crediable report of an israeli government official or soldier intentionaly killing an innocent palestinian.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that. I don't doubt that some soldiers were very liberal with their trigger fingers during some of the raids into Palestinian territories. Additionally I can't help but think that there was a lot of "wink, wink" behaviour going on with respects to the investigations of incidents where civilians were killed. And I do think the Israeli army was culpable of "doing nothing" when they invaded Lebanon and allowed the massacres in the refugee camps to happen. However, I do agree that it is not IDF military doctrine to target innocent civilians.

quote:

btw thanks for taking the time to research this occrider

bitte

Posted by Izzy on Aug-21-2003 20:17:

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
I wouldn't go so far as to say that. I don't doubt that some soldiers were very liberal with their trigger fingers during some of the raids into Palestinian territories. Additionally I can't help but think that there was a lot of "wink, wink" behaviour going on with respects to the investigations of incidents where civilians were killed. And I do think the Israeli army was culpable of "doing nothing" when they invaded Lebanon and allowed the massacres in the refugee camps to happen. However, I do agree that it is not IDF military doctrine to target innocent civilians.

you're completely right, i should have phrased it like that.

however i still cringe the at the whole lebanon massacre thing, firstly i dont see how israel could be accused of 'allowing' a massacre, obviously if the lebanese militia that committed the acts came up to the IDF and asked whether they could go masscre people at the camp, israel would have never allowed them near the camp. Secondly to refer to a single act that the IDF was only indirectly responsible for twenty years ago compared to the direct and obviosu massacres taking place on israeli busesses today further shows the inequality of 'goodness/evil' between the two sides

Posted by hardcore trancer on Aug-21-2003 20:25:

you guys just never want to believe that your perfect government could commit such actions,always blame everything for terrorism.Oh well keep thinking like that,but we are not blinded,your nasty government does commits crimes,and goes against the international law,but most of the time it never gets noticed,and once it does,you guys always deny it!!

Posted by Durafei on Aug-21-2003 20:40:

quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer
you guys just never want to believe that your perfect government could commit such actions,always blame everything for terrorism.Oh well keep thinking like that,but we are not blinded,your nasty government does commits crimes,and goes against the international law,but most of the time it never gets noticed,and once it does,you guys always deny it!!

Do you remember the happy demonstrations of Palestinians after Sept. 11th when they burned American flags?? For some reason you guys keep denying that as well....

Posted by Durafei on Aug-21-2003 20:46:

Posted by occrider on Aug-21-2003 20:52:

quote:
Originally posted by Izzy
you're completely right, i should have phrased it like that.

however i still cringe the at the whole lebanon massacre thing, firstly i dont see how israel could be accused of 'allowing' a massacre, obviously if the lebanese militia that committed the acts came up to the IDF and asked whether they could go masscre people at the camp, israel would have never allowed them near the camp. Secondly to refer to a single act that the IDF was only indirectly responsible for twenty years ago compared to the direct and obviosu massacres taking place on israeli busesses today further shows the inequality of 'goodness/evil' between the two sides

I haven't read up on the issue as much as I've read up on the wars of 1948, 67, and 73. The internet can never be the replacement of a good history book that covers the event from as many perspectives as possible, but every account I've read on the issue at the very least places gross negligence on the inaction of the IDF to predict what would happen and prevent it. At the very most critics would argue that the IDF was guilty of instigating the massacres. Perhaps I'll try to find an impartial book to read on the matter ... that's next on my list of Middle East events to study.

But here's a simple overview without the rhetoric (a rarity on the internet) written by some students ...

http://www.thehoya.com/viewpoint/092402/view4.cfm

quote:

you guys just never want to believe that your perfect government could commit such actions,always blame everything for terrorism.Oh well keep thinking like that,but we are not blinded,your nasty government does commits crimes,and goes against the international law,but most of the time it never gets noticed,and once it does,you guys always deny it!!

I'm not Jewish, I'm not Israeli, I'm not afraid to admit the US is wrong, and I'm not afraid to admit that I'm wrong as I've done so in the past. You should direct your baseless criticisms elsewhere. Otherwise, by all means expose my guilt. You should have plenty of proof and source material since I've been posting here frequentely since the start of the polit forum.

Posted by oDrori on Aug-22-2003 00:02:

quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer
you guys just never want to believe that your perfect government could commit such actions,always blame everything for terrorism.Oh well keep thinking like that,but we are not blinded,your nasty government does commits crimes,and goes against the international law,but most of the time it never gets noticed,and once it does,you guys always deny it!!

A) I think the "guys'" point in this thread is to show there is no proof either way so you can't accuse them of believing a certain one.

B) As long as you keep on jumping on hints and use them as proofs that our perfect government is guilty of all accusations anyone ever makes towards it, I don't think you should post statements such as the one underlined above.

Posted by Yoepus on Aug-22-2003 00:49:

LIE LIES ALL OF THEM.. good thing we have occider to catch them

oh wait this feels like deja vou

Posted by hardcore trancer on Aug-22-2003 00:55:

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
LIE LIES ALL OF THEM.. good thing we have occider to catch them

oh wait this feels like deja vou

So it makes me a lier bacuase I dont agree with Occider??
it is called freedom of expression man,just because you dont agree with someone it doesnt make them a lier!!!

Posted by oDrori on Aug-22-2003 01:25:

Oh yeah I forgot, thank you Occrider Fighter of truth and justice

Posted by Cyrus King on Aug-22-2003 05:50:

quote:
Originally posted by Durafei
Do you remember the happy demonstrations of Palestinians after Sept. 11th when they burned American flags?? For some reason you guys keep denying that as well....

are you talking about the 10 children cheering outside of a tea shop without any direct comments made from them as to why they were cheering?

You make it sound as though "palestinians" were there in huge numbers endorsing the US suffering....

Even if they were cheering about that...the clip was intended for propagandistic purposes...lets make all palestinians look like evil terrorists who cheer at the site of buildings holding thousands of people collapse before our very eyes.

Remember, many arabs were mourning in the millions at this devastation, yet the media didnt appreciate that... and failed to show their sympathy....why? Because the middle-easterners have no souls.

Posted by SeeK on Aug-22-2003 08:41:

occrider, u thought of gettin into politics? u would do a much better job than George...

Posted by Haunted on Aug-22-2003 09:02:

quote:
Originally posted by Cyrus King
are you talking about the 10 children cheering outside of a tea shop without any direct comments made from them as to why they were cheering?

no.. i think hes talking about the clip with the arabs burning american flags...

Posted by occrider on Aug-22-2003 14:18:

quote:
Originally posted by DJAhmet
occrider, u thought of gettin into politics? u would do a much better job than George...

Never, there's no appreciation in politics no matter what you do and who you try to please . At any rate, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that there was in no way any Israeli wrongdoing in this affair. There are still some eyewitness discrepancies as to what really happened. I just think that it is an unfair portrayal to leave off that last picture however

Posted by montie on Aug-22-2003 20:24:

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
LIE LIES ALL OF THEM.. good thing we have occider to catch them

oh wait this feels like deja vou

Occrider didn't point out that what the pro-palestinian sites were saying were lies. As he didn't point out that the IDF report of what happened was a lie.
He just showed that there was not enough evidence to prove either side's story without a reason for doubt.