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man i hate patriotism

I am officially classifying "objective patriot" as an oxymoron. I am so sick of prople being "PROUD" of being born, which is essentially what i see it as.

"Yes i was born of this nationality in this country, GO ME!! I had no part in it really, yeah my parents fucked there and i was born but im proud, i made no contribution or even a choice mind you. See im proud of random things i had nothing to do with, like winning the lottery. My country is soo the greatest, and im proud of that too. Wow im one lucky sonafobitch, i got the best country and religeon, man im set. And the rest of the scumbags, ahhh they are here just for show, god created them for background noise i guess....... they'll burn in hell i guess,.... the poor fools."

hey it was a round world last time i checked,.... if you want to be proud, be proud of being that 1 sperm out of the million that made it to the egg first, atleast thats an achievement, even if it is a nonconscious one...

PROUD PROUD PROUD PROUD PROUD PROUD
bah
/rant

my bumber sticker reads:

on the patriotic bandwagon since 9/11

quote:

Originally posted by tathi my bumber sticker reads: on the patriotic bandwagon since 9/11

LMFAO! That's a classic.

Patriotism is stupid anyway, you don't get to choose what county you're born in so why should you be proud of it? Especialy when you country has many dark periods of history behind it.

patriotism used to include thinking for yourself and not letting somebody else think for you. times have really changed, huh?

LMAO Brilliant thread idea.

I don't think anyone ever bother tackling this subject on this forum as everyone gets all fucking arsey about patriotism. I'm farily patriotic but not to the extend that I think my countries the best, my nationality is the best.

Its really mental how seriously people take it, some Irish people have their whole backs tattoed with IRA mureals them tats must take fucking hours plus �10000s, aswell as showing their political view it shows where there from of course their proud etc but its taking it to the extreme. Aswell if you go to any mediterrian resort you will always see tons of English tourists with their England Nickelson t shirts, and England Football shirts on, not all of them are wankers, but some do have this attitude to give it the biggun because their English.

There is two countries in this world that I'm part of Eire (Ireland) and the UK and I'm proud of it but nothing to the extent I have to show off I'm from there and act like there the only two countries in the world and every other country may as well not exist.

The We're this, We're that attitude fucking pisses me off when people get overly patriotic saying how fucking great their country is. No Country is greater then any other we're all fucking Equal! no one is better then anyone else, people who are openly up their own arse about their nationality really do my head in and I would quite happily put anyone on their arse young or old if they come up to me talking this 'We're better then you' shit, On holiday in Greece one of my best friends got not nationalistic but very very patriotic in what started a simple convosation, it ended up in punches being exchnaged between me and him thats how much that type of shit annoys me.

Sigh ... people stop confusing patriotism with nationalism. There is a distinctive difference. And don't let people confuse you with what they think patriotism is or how the word has been misused to label certain actions. There is nothing wrong with patriotism there is everything wrong with nationalism.

Thats the thing, people use it to judge you and measure you up.

This is what really shits me

-"So whats your background?"
I tell the zealot
-"ohh you did this to us in this year and then yous did this"

hey dipshit, i didnt do anything, i dont need your version of a history lesson with a guilt trip added. Especially being of european decendance, all the history there and some retards want to hold you responsible for historical acts you had no part of and are even debatable in the first place. Brainwashed by their parents that they are good and others evil.....its just another form of racism


"History is a bunch of lies that are agreed apon" -Napoleon

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Sigh ... people stop confusing patriotism with nationalism. There is a distinctive difference. And don't let people confuse you with what they think patriotism is or how the word has been misused to label certain actions. There is nothing wrong with patriotism there is everything wrong with nationalism.

proud?

quote:

Originally posted by ProDiGaL proud?

Of what?

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Sigh ... people stop confusing patriotism with nationalism. There is a distinctive difference. And don't let people confuse you with what they think patriotism is or how the word has been misused to label certain actions. There is nothing wrong with patriotism there is everything wrong with nationalism.

I don�t agree. In this day and age the two have become intertwined and virtually inseparable.

quote:

Originally posted by Spin Doctor I don�t agree. In this day and age the two have become intertwined and virtually inseparable.

No, you have been tainted by the mainstream misuse of the word. What you have heard people call patriotism is, as a matter of fact, nationalim. They are still two distinct entities with vast underlying differences.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Of what?

your passport?

quote:

Originally posted by ProDiGaL your passport?

Not particularly. My picture isn't that good in it. But other than that it's just been sitting in my desk for the past year, so it hasn't impressed me much as of late. Therefore I have no reason to be proud of it.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Not particularly. My picture isn't that good in it. But other than that it's just been sitting in my desk for the past year, so it hasn't impressed me much as of late. Therefore I have no reason to be proud of it.

yeah i gotta a shitty pic in mine too :/

quote:

Originally posted by occrider No, you have been tainted by the mainstream misuse of the word. What you have heard people call patriotism is, as a matter of fact, nationalim. They are still two distinct entities with vast underlying differences.

Once again � I still disagree. Though to add fuel to the fire, would you care to enlighten us as to how you would define Nationalism and Patriotism?

From Webster's:

quote:

Main Entry: pa�tri�ot�ism Pronunciation: 'pA-trE-&-"ti-z&m, chiefly British 'pa- Function: noun Date: circa 1726 : love for or devotion to one's country

and

quote:

Main Entry: na�tion�al�ism Pronunciation: 'nash-n&-"li-z&m, 'na-sh&-n&l-"i-z&m Function: noun Date: 1844 : loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

Once again, occrider is correct.

And just to add a bit more to the discussion:

quote:

Main Entry: jin�go�ism Pronunciation: 'ji[ng]-(")gO-"i-z&m Function: noun Date: 1878 : extreme chauvinism or nationalism marked especially by a belligerent foreign policy

I think one could extrapolate that what people are venting about borders on jingoism.

MrS

quote:

Originally posted by ProDiGaL yeah i gotta a shitty pic in mine too :/

Hasn�t everyone?

Yeah, in modern day society it�s the same difference as the KKK not saying �the N word� anymore and saying instead �We don�t hate Black people � WE JUST REALLY LOVE WHITE PEOPLE!�

Once upon a time the two things were different, however now they come to mean much the same.

the people that fit into theose definitions all see themslves as patriots, hence my use the word

quote:

Originally posted by Spin Doctor Once again � I still disagree. Though to add fuel to the fire, would you care to enlighten us as to how you would define Nationalism and Patriotism?

Sure ... personally I like webster's definition:

patriotism

\Pa"tri*ot*ism\, n. [Cf. F. patriotisme.] Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country.

Love and devotion to the welfare of one's country implies neither blind disobedience or being proud about being born in a particular place. It is possible to love your country and disagree with your countries actions, and yet still be patriotic as long as your goal is to achieve a better nation.

This guy says it better than me although I might disagree with a minor point or two:

The True Meaning of Patriotism
by Mark Hofer, Broadside Magazine and Matt Hofer, Carolina Review
Events on and since September 11th have caused many to respond. Some have responded by placing American flags in front of their homes or on their cars. Others have protested until they got sore throats. Some have been called unpatriotic in their actions. However, this accusation is often used too loosely and degrades the potency of the accusation to those who deserve it. To be fair to those accusing and those accused of being unpatriotic it is essential to know what patriotism actually is.

The base of the word "patriotism" comes from the Latin word patria, meaning fatherland or homeland. The suffix "-ism" is Greek meaning belief in, practice of, or condition of. The literal definition is then belief in one's country. But patriotism goes beyond that definition. We all believe in France as a country, but are not necessarily French patriots. A better definition, and the one offered by Merriam-Webster Online, is "one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests."

Those who are saying that something is unpatriotic because it goes against government are simplistic. As everyone well knows, the government is not always correct in its decisions. Japanese internment camps, for example, were one of the American government's mistakes during World War II. 120,000 people of Japanese ancestry were forcefully and indiscriminately placed in these camps to cut down on the number of Japanese spies in the United States. Although upheld by the Supreme Court and considered an issue of national security, history has proven any form of concentration camps atrocious.

Conversely, radicals who declare that democracy demands dissent are merely trying to justify their own senseless actions. Democracy demands dialogue and debate, not dissent, to encourage both sides of any issue to work toward the best, most developed conclusions. When we as a nation break into purely contradictory factions, then the constructive nature of the debate crumbles.

Many have declared themselves patriotic for simply expressing rights reaffirmed by the United States Constitution. However, expressing rights is not necessarily patriotic or constructive. For example, burning the US flag is certainly unpatriotic, though the right to do so is guaranteed by the 1st Amendment.

President Ronald Reagan made his views on what patriotism is clear in his Farewell Address on January 20, 1989.

"An informed patriotism is what we want. And are we doing a good enough job teaching our children what America is and what she represents in the long history of the world? Those of us who are over 35 or so years of age grew up in a different America. We were taught, very directly, what it means to be an American. And we absorbed, almost in the air, a love of country and an appreciation of its institutions. If you didn't get these things from your family you got them from the neighborhood, from the father down the street who fought in Korea or the family who lost someone at Anzio. Or you could get a sense of patriotism from school. And if all else failed you could get a sense of patriotism from the popular culture. The movies celebrated democratic values and implicitly reinforced the idea that America was special. TV was like that, too, through the mid-sixties."

Patriotism to him meant "a love of country and an appreciation of its institutions." This love and appreciation came from learning the history of our country, learning the democratic values for which so many have fought and died here and around the world. This was not the blind faith in the government or blind opposition to the government. This patriotism was the informed love and appreciation for the government. Fighting to change the country is patriotic, but you must know why you are changing it and why the new way is better.

What a shame it is that some have come to believe that patriotism is blind, unhealthy, or even vile. It is also shameful how patriotism has been oversimplified by some to mean unquestioning support for the government, which then allows radicals to rail patriots for any and all government institutions with which they disagree. Patriots Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson found themselves on opposing sides on almost all the big issues of their time, but today neither is more a patriot than the other. In the light of September 11th, patriotism should still be viewed through the seasoned lens of history.

Oops ... yes forgot you asked for nationalism as well. Well basically nationalism covers the same basic tenants as patriotism. However there is one key difference. Patriotism can exist alone, nationalism requires other nations to reference. MrSquirell summed it up quite well with his definition, nationalism implies not only love but loyalty and obedience as well. Furthermore, nationalism adopts the doctrine that your national culture and interests are superior to any other. Therefore those who say America is the greatest country in the world (assuming this isn't a proven fact somewhere somehow) are exhibiting nationalistic tendencies. Those who label dissent as being unpatriotic are exhibiting nationalistic tendencies, sound familiar?

Why thank you for the complement sir.
(I will overlook your typo in regards to my name )

On the note of definitions (which is kinda off topic but I always come back to it when i look something up) I REALLY need to get a copy of the OED. I am tempted to pay the $195 for the online subscription thing...but I have other things to spend the money on first (Craftsman rollaway toolchest as an example).

Once you have found the way of the Oxford English Dictionary there is no substitute.

/me goes away to see about the shelf space for a 20 volume dictionary :crazy;

MrS

http://dictionary.reference.com/premium/
Would be better value for money than the OED

quote:

Originally posted by tathi http://dictionary.reference.com/premium/ Would be better value for money than the OED

As my mom used to say when talking about my dad's tight-wad ways of shopping:

"When is a bargain not a bargain?"

This is one of those times

Yes, the OED online thing is too expensive, but I am more interested in the print edition. What would be really sweet was if they gave all the people who buy one of the print editions free access to the site....hmmmmmm.

Sigh....another thing for my "when I win the lottery" list.

MrS

you can also put the OED in the middle of your bookshelf for all to see! :P

i wouldn't mind the print edition, but its at the end of a long queue

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