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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...rab+way+forward

I agree; this is the solution to middle east peace.

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Originally posted by Yoepus I agree; this is the solution to middle east peace.

So what do you (israel) do about it?

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Originally posted by St_Andrew So what do you (israel) do about it?

There's nothing israel really can do about this. Most arab states have some sort of boycott on israel and wont even allow israelis onto their soil. But Israel does do something about it with those arab countries it has peace with.

There have been many joint ventures between Jordanians and Israelis. Israeli's have helped and taught the jordanians to harness the material wealth that the dead sea holds, Israeli's have taught them various agricultural techniques on farming the desert. Even raw trade between the two countries is substantially high (http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Dai...2003010811.html)
there is even a talk about a joint venture funded by the UN to create a canal from the red sea at eilat/aqaba to the dead sea to offset it's diminishing water level.

Egypt is one of the few countries that allows israeli tourists, which help out that industry by opening a greater market.(http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Dai...2003072823.html)

In 1993, Israel signed a Free Trade agreement with the PLO (though i dont know if that's in effect now). Morocco, which has established diplomatic relations with Israel, has increased its importation of Israeli made agricultural related products such as agro-chemicals and irrigation equipment. (http://www.infoprod.co.il/country/israel2f.htm)

Though the article that hansolo posted is a report of self-reflection. It is critical of what arab countries must do to better themselves, not on how other countries around can help them.

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Originally posted by Izzy There's nothing israel really can do about this. Most arab states have some sort of boycott on israel and wont even allow israelis onto their soil. But Israel does do something about it with those arab countries it has peace with.

My point is that actually can do something about it! And yes i agree this is the only way to solve the middle east conflict. Invest your money in Palestine. Sounds weird, but think about it, if palestine would be a decent country to live in with pretty well educated people, suicide bombers shouldn't really be a problem...

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Originally posted by St_Andrew My point is that actually can do something about it! And yes i agree this is the only way to solve the middle east conflict. Invest your money in Palestine. Sounds weird, but think about it, if palestine would be a decent country to live in with pretty well educated people, suicide bombers shouldn't really be a problem...

Except for the massive PLO corruption that would steal the money from the people and key objectives of Hamas such as the right of return, the destruction of Israel, etc.

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Originally posted by occrider Except for the massive PLO corruption that would steal the money from the people and key objectives of Hamas such as the right of return, the destruction of Israel, etc.

Of course as it is today you cannot give the money to them in their hands. You have to make concreate things of the money, like schools roads etc... Not an easy solution, nor a perfect one. But still i think that's the way to go! Or do you think it's better to go on forever as it is today, bombing back and forth...?

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Of course as it is today you cannot give the money to them in their hands. You have to make concreate things of the money, like schools roads etc... Not an easy solution, nor a perfect one. But still i think that's the way to go! Or do you think it's better to go on forever as it is today, bombing back and forth...?

Much like the thought of a utopian world without lawyers horrified Lionel Hutch, I can't bear to think of a peaceful middleast.

But at any rate, I don't think your plan will work because israel is having financial troubles as it is. And it's not like they would invest in Palestine without any assurances that terrorism would stop. If they spend billions and the terrorism continued they would come away from the deal as the biggest suckers on the planet. Any deal in that region is going to have to be tit for tat.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew My point is that actually can do something about it! And yes i agree this is the only way to solve the middle east conflict. Invest your money in Palestine. Sounds weird, but think about it, if palestine would be a decent country to live in with pretty well educated people, suicide bombers shouldn't really be a problem...

Why would Israel invest in the Palestinians if the Palestinians don't invest in the Palestinians???

Again you fail to see the point that Izzy and these Arab scholars make. It does not matter how much Israel will invest in Palestine, or other countries invest elsehwere in Arabia. This would not do anything to these countries - the West invest billions currently in Arabia, has this brought peace??

What matters is when the Palestinians will invest in themselves, when other arab countries invest in themselves. Thats the issue.

Peace will only come when the Arabs learn to invest in themselves.

You could give them a $1,000,000 school, but if they don't invest in themselves, they will use this school as a Mosque, or an arms depots say...

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Originally posted by Yoepus Why would Israel invest in the Palestinians if the Palestinians don't invest in the Palestinians???

Palestinians certainly doesn't have the money for that.

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Again you fail to see the point that Izzy and these Arab scholars make. It does not matter how much Israel will invest in Palestine, or other countries invest elsehwere in Arabia. This would not do anything to these countries - the West invest billions currently in Arabia, has this brought peace??

as far as i know there is no war going on between the highly developed countries (which is the countries west invest in) such as Saudi arabia and the western world.

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What matters is when the Palestinians will invest in themselves, when other arab countries invest in themselves. Thats the issue.

All countries can't invest in theirself (Of course they can but maybe not as much as is needed). Some arab countries can, but don't do it, but that is not the case in Palestine.

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Peace will only come when the Arabs learn to invest in themselves.

With some help
and besides i don't think they will get the message before they go to school and get well educated.

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You could give them a $1,000,000 school, but if they don't invest in themselves, they will use this school as a Mosque, or an arms depots say...

If they got a $1,000,000 school sure they would go to school, otherwise, nuke 'em...

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Originally posted by Occrider But at any rate, I don't think your plan will work because israel is having financial troubles as it is. And it's not like they would invest in Palestine without any assurances that terrorism would stop. If they spend billions and the terrorism continued they would come away from the deal as the biggest suckers on the planet. Any deal in that region is going to have to be tit for tat.

That is a valid point. Perhaps the US / EU should raise their Palestinian funding/investments...

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Palestinians certainly doesn't have the money for that.

No, they had the money - right now most if it is sitting in Swiss bank accounts or going to fund terrorism - not the Palestinians.

Europe and the USA gave probably billions to the Palestinians in the dreamscape after the Oslo accords were signed, where did this money go?

Its the same with the rest of Arabia;

Yes the West has invested in other Arab countries; such as Saudia Arabia. But Saudia Arabia has not invested in itself --- its still state sponsorer of terrorism... how many leading universities has the oil money built? how about roads, infastructure, easing bureaucratic and economic restrictions, schools, water, roads??

Right now the West invests in oil, it does not invest in Arab countries, they have nothing to invest in. Once the Arabs invest in themselves (and they have TONS of money.. although most is in some private off-shore account) build themselves school, educated themselves, build roads, provide water, services, and infrastructure then they will start producing and trading, and people will invest in them.

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as far as i know there is no war going on between the highly developed countries (which is the countries west invest in) such as Saudi arabia and the western world.

Aside from that war on terrorism of course. Sure the Arabs don't fight within themselves openly very often, but this has I think actually been detrimental to their culture; more disent, more debate, more opposing views, had their been tolerance for this would perpetuate the Arabs closer to the rest of the third-world.

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All countries can't invest in theirself (Of course they can but maybe not as much as is needed). Some arab countries can, but don't do it, but that is not the case in Palestine.

OK you don't get it, don't think when I say "investment" only money. Heres another analogy, you didn't seem to get the $1,000,000 schoo one. You've heard this one right? "Fish for a man, he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish he'll eat for a lifetime".

Well right now the west has tried to teach the Arab's to fish. In fact the Arabs know how to fish. But they refuse to invest in themsleves; they won't fish!! Even if they know how, they won't fish. They need to invest in themselves first; have the will to eat, have the will to fish, before any real gains can come of this.

All you have so far, is a waste of a perfectly good overpriced learn how to fish consultant, teaching a people who don't want to know how to fish to fish. It won't happen, once the Arabs want to fish this can happen... this is what I mean; the Arabs must invest in themselves first. This is what the article of the Arab scholars refers to (read it if you haven't), this is the only way for Arabia to change and to be a stable part of the world.

Right now Arab mentality is that they don't want to fish, they don't want to learn, but they want you to fish for them for a lifetime... this can't happen, and this creates the instablity.

I may sound far fetched (its 1:45am after all). But having a perpetual conflict with a nation who has WMDs (israel) cannot help Arab countries.

In other words, when you spend all of your money into arms so you can have something even remotely resembling an army (compared to one of the most advanced army on earth, with the help of US tax payers money), you don't have anything left for education and R&D.

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Originally posted by ahlamalek I may sound far fetched (its 1:45am after all). But having a perpetual conflict with a nation who has WMDs (israel) cannot help Arab countries. In other words, when you spend all of your money into arms so you can have something even remotely resembling an army (compared to one of the most advanced army on earth, with the help of US tax payers money), you don't have anything left for education and R&D.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

Israel
$122 billion GDP
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$8.97 billion (FY02)
Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
8.75% (FY02)

Egypt:
$268 billion GDP
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$4.04 billion (FY99)
Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
4.1% (FY99)

Saudia Arabia
$242 billion GDP
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$18.3 billion (FY00)
Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
13% (FY00)

Syria
$59.4 billion GDP
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$858 million (FY00 est.); note - based on official budget data that may understate actual spending
Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
5.9% (FY00)

Iran (non-arab)
GDP $456 billion
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$9.7 billion (FY00)
Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
3.1% (FY00)

Why can't these countries afford schools and a military just as Israel does again? All of them (with exception of Saudia) spend less on military than Israel as a % of their GDP, and collectivelly outspend Israel on military.

edit:

oh and just for comparisons sake:

USA
GDP $10.4 trillion
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$276.7 billion (FY99 est.)
Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
3.2% (FY99 est.)

France
GDP $1.54 trillion
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$46.5 billion (2000)
Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
2.57% (2002)

China
GDP $5.7 trillion
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$55.91 billion (FY02)
Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
4.3% (FY02)

How do you even dare to compare such different countries as Israel and Egypt? Egypt has 12 times the population of Israel (saudi arabia 3 times)! please use GDP / person in that case otherwise it doesn't say much... And as you probably know, Isreal has a lot higher GDP / person than any other arab country. I really hope you understand they don't have as much money as you do to invest in education. It is hard to know for me but saudi arabia do have good universities, don't they?

And still i think you miss my point. How should the arabs (palestine) learn to invest in theriself if they are a poor opressed people? israelis are smart, well educated etc, of course you see their obvious mistakes, but they don't. So how is your proposal to make this work if not by supporting their education etc..?

YOepus, do you have any stats for the govt funding that goes into the settlements, such as Ariel, inside the occupied territories? I read an article last summer that it was so large and secretive no one actually knows

What I took from this article was that many muslim run countries fail to adjust their far fetch thinking (im talking about the extremists and even those that chant on the streets about death this and death that) to a place where you can suggest spending money on schools instead of armies as a means to end their troubles. They are blood hungry human beings, free of rational thought.

The same way some Cubs fans would actually kill that guy cause of the screw up in baseball - the same lack of human sense and compassion is holding back many Arab nations from moving forward in industry/technology/social infrastructure.

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Originally posted by JudgeJulez YOepus, do you have any stats for the govt funding that goes into the settlements, such as Ariel, inside the occupied territories? I read an article last summer that it was so large and secretive no one actually knows

No I don't, but to be honest I don't think its that much. I think even recently it has stopped completely. I know the US congress wanted to subtract the funds Israel spends on settlements (or was it on areas of the new wall they don't agree with) from the available loan of funds. I remember that it was not very much.

The wall that Israel is building has an approx. retail suggest value of 1 billion - settlement expense I'm sure are maximum that much.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew How do you even dare to compare such different countries as Israel and Egypt?

Hey I just put the figures up; your the one who compares.

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It is hard to know for me but saudi arabia do have good universities, don't they?

No they don't they aren't world renowned for anything really. Most Saudis come to the USA and the west for their unversity training. You should see some of the Saudia people I've hung around here there past year with - those guys are loaded with money. Why don't they invest it in themselves?

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And still i think you miss my point. How should the arabs (palestine) learn to invest in theriself if they are a poor opressed people?

Read the article - you see Arabs are not all poor stupid oppressed people; they do have an intellectual elite. The majority of the Arab intellecutal elite likes to blame all their problems on everyone but themselves, you don't learn anything by doing this. Other Arab elites (such as the 40 that made this report) think no, our problems are our own and we can't go on blaming the world for everything that is wrong. Only by looking at what our problems are, why it is such, and then fixing it can we prosper.

Believe me Arabs are much wealthier then other third world countries who have still been able to advance themselves up as well. There is no excuse really, they can invest in themselves.

They key with education is you don't need to educate EVERYONE, you just need to educated ENOUGH in the right way.

Why should the west build them 10 schools if they won't even build 1? When they build one, and then one more, then and only then will it be resonable for the west to help them build more schools. You have to see their interest in education; what good is a school if the people aren't ready to learn?

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Originally posted by Yoepus Hey I just put the figures up; your the one who compares.

You used it as an argument, but it is no argument...

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No they don't they aren't world renowned for anything really. Most Saudis come to the USA and the west for their unversity training. You should see some of the Saudia people I've hung around here there past year with - those guys are loaded with money. Why don't they invest it in themselves?

Perhaps it's because they already have endless with money and will have a good future another 200 years or so without doing anything... and besides i searched google a bit and found many saudi universities so that bad can't it be.

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Read the article - you see Arabs are not all poor stupid oppressed people; they do have an intellectual elite. The majority of the Arab intellecutal elite likes to blame all their problems on everyone but themselves, you don't learn anything by doing this. Other Arab elites (such as the 40 that made this report) think no, our problems are our own and we can't go on blaming the world for everything that is wrong. Only by looking at what our problems are, why it is such, and then fixing it can we prosper.

Isn't this a problem more in general than in the arab world? of course the intellectual elite/leaders blame others to remain the elite. it is just easier to do so in countries with less smart non elite. So even here the solution is educate the general population more.

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Believe me Arabs are much wealthier then other third world countries who have still been able to advance themselves up as well. There is no excuse really, they can invest in themselves.

Africa can't really invest in themselves (and will remain poor and unpeaceful until someone invest in them). Asia got a lot of investment help from western countries� most countries going from third world to western world standard get help in one way or another.

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They key with education is you don't need to educate EVERYONE, you just need to educated ENOUGH in the right way.

True, so what's the problem

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Why should the west build them 10 schools if they won't even build 1? When they build one, and then one more, then and only then will it be resonable for the west to help them build more schools. You have to see their interest in education; what good is a school if the people aren't ready to learn?

When are people ready to learn? Make them ready to learn instead of waiting another 3000 suicide bombings (probably they aren't ready then either).

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Originally posted by St_Andrew When are people ready to learn? Make them ready to learn instead of waiting another 3000 suicide bombings (probably they aren't ready then either).

Thats exaclty the issue; you can't make them learn. They have to decide they want to learn. Only once they want to learn can you teach. Otherwise, your just wasting both your and their time and money.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Thats exaclty the issue; you can't make them learn. They have to decide they want to learn. Only once they want to learn can you teach. Otherwise, your just wasting both your and their time and money.

when do you think they will decide to learn? when they have schools to go to, or when the israeli army is outside their door?

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Originally posted by St_Andrew when do you think they will decide to learn? when they have schools to go to, or when the israeli army is outside their door?

well said man!!and it is all true.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew when do you think they will decide to learn? when they have schools to go to, or when the israeli army is outside their door?

the article didnt refer to the paletinians alone but to all the arab countries, that excuse doesnt count for the poverty in syria, egypt, yemen... that israeli army outside their door excuse doesnt work there.

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Originally posted by Izzy the article didnt refer to the paletinians alone but to all the arab countries, that excuse doesnt count for the poverty in syria, egypt, yemen... that israeli army outside their door excuse doesnt work there.

if you encourage them instead of bombing them at least you will have a better palestine (which i see as the biggest middle east problem right now...), then after that you can continue with the rest of the arab world....

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