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-- quick question concerning beat matching

quick question concerning beat matching

i may be a newbie to ta.com, but i'm not totally new to spinning trance.. i've been spinning for at least an hour every day for about a year and i feel that i am getting progressively better and better as the months pass by but...

how long does it generally take you guys to beatmatch? and by beatmatching.. i mean matching it so perfectly the two songs you're mixing can be played together for a good minute and a half while staying in sync. i listen to some of the great djs of our time (armin, tiesto, pvd, etc) and i notice that their beats aren't 100% perfect all the time. if you listen real closely you can even hear a few of tiesto's mixes where he doesn't match them perfectly.. is it humanly impossible to match beats so accurately that they play together perfectly matched forever? or do i just need some more practcie. i can usually match beats by around 2:00 minutes, but they are generally +0.005 or -0.005 off.

any ideas?
pEy

I usually get the beat right in about 30 sec but in 1 min max. Breakbeat and 2 step is always harder to mix because the "uneven" placement of the beats. I think the main problem is that some tracks have a bpm of something like 137.34, wich makes it difficult to match with a TT pitch slider. The variations are usually so small that they can be controlled by pushing or applying a bit pressure on the vinyl.

I stopped caring about letting them go together for like 3 minutes and concentrated more on noticing the beats going off and fixing em quickly. It usually only takes a bit less than 30 secs to totally match, it is especially easy when you have been matching a track a lot. But even then they go off a little, so I just help it out a little.

oh and I have been spinning for a little over year.

i think it's pretty tough to get two tunes matched perfectly for a long period of time. by virtue of the minute pitch and bpm differences, it's nearly impossible to line up two tracks w/in a min or so and not have to touch them for the next few mins. one track will almost always be slightly faster/slower and will get more out of phase as time passes.

I definitely agree w/ Boomer187, in that its much more important to be able to recognize which tracks are going out of sync and get them back together as quickly as possible. that way, you know you can fix any phase problems, rather than thinking you can get a perfect beatmatch every time.

I've been spinning a bit over a year as well.

Re: quick question concerning beat matching

quote:

Originally posted by progressivepey i may be a newbie to ta.com, but i'm not totally new to spinning trance.. i've been spinning for at least an hour every day for about a year and i feel that i am getting progressively better and better as the months pass by but... how long does it generally take you guys to beatmatch? and by beatmatching.. i mean matching it so perfectly the two songs you're mixing can be played together for a good minute and a half while staying in sync. i listen to some of the great djs of our time (armin, tiesto, pvd, etc) and i notice that their beats aren't 100% perfect all the time. if you listen real closely you can even hear a few of tiesto's mixes where he doesn't match them perfectly.. is it humanly impossible to match beats so accurately that they play together perfectly matched forever? or do i just need some more practcie. i can usually match beats by around 2:00 minutes, but they are generally +0.005 or -0.005 off. any ideas? pEy

wow, lotsa people here spinning for just over a year eh? me too.

anyway, yeah, it takes me about 30 seconds to get it "pretty good" and a minute to two minutes to get it perfect usually. and by perfect i mean good enough that i can walk away from the tables and have it play together for 3 minutes or so.

perfection in DJing is a simply an unatainable goal. the pitch sliders are analogue, therefore you theoretically have an infinite level of adjustment, therefore, how close can you be? a millionth of a percent off? could be, but nobody could tell.

actually, i notice you said you were "+0.005 or -0.005 off" how do you know that? just a guess? or are you using CD decks that are that precise? I suppose with CD decks it could be possible to have the perfect beatmatch, as they are analogue not digital.

I also agree that the most important thing is not the perfect beatmatch, but knowing how to correct it when it goes off. it will almost always go off a bit, you just have to know if it's faster or slower and by how much. also you have to know the RIGHT method of fixing it.

I have the bad habit of touching the platter or spindle to speed it up/slow it down. this is noticeable in the song, especially if strings or a melody or continous tone is playing, you hear a noticeable warble in the song. the better way to to it is to "ride" the pitch by putting it slightly up/down, then back again. this is much less noticeable, and less risky because the record is less likely to skip. however, i always end up overcorrecting with this method, and having to ride the pitch the whole mix! practice makes perfect i suppose.

Re: Re: quick question concerning beat matching

quote:

Originally posted by JohnSmith practice makes perfect i suppose.

a truer phrase was never written ...well, maybe "almost perfect"

now that I think about it...

when I mix my incoming tune, I check it against the playing one first, get it lined up/matched fairly close, then find the cue spot. once I've decided on a cue spot, I don't always send the cued tune right out to the speakers. I find my mixes sound much better when I start the incoming tune in my phones at the right spot, then fade it into the playing one. gives me a few secs to match it up well, then it sounds much better than if I'd just started it playing immediately.

I realize I just need to practice getting the release right, I'm just curious how everyone else here mixes their incoming tunes.

quote:

Originally posted by waxHead now that I think about it... when I mix my incoming tune, I check it against the playing one first, get it lined up/matched fairly close, then find the cue spot. once I've decided on a cue spot, I don't always send the cued tune right out to the speakers. I find my mixes sound much better when I start the incoming tune in my phones at the right spot, then fade it into the playing one. gives me a few secs to match it up well, then it sounds much better than if I'd just started it playing immediately. I realize I just need to practice getting the release right, I'm just curious how everyone else here mixes their incoming tunes.

every mix I do I start in my phones then either fade it in or use another method. I would never just start it live with the active track. If I am understanding you correctly this is what your doing.

quote:

Originally posted by Boomer187 I would never just start it live with the active track. If I am understanding you correctly this is what your doing.

yeah, though it's just one way I mix tracks. I asked mainly out of curiosity, though I'd thought more experienced djs do this more often than not.

it takes me about 30 sec to get the tracks beatmatched. I then spend the rest of the time perfecting the mix. Letting the two songs play together and adjusting the pitch ever so slightly, until the two tracks can playtogether for along time without me having to pitch one up or down to catch up.
I like to get the tracks as close to the same speed as possible, because i don't like to ride the pitch when i'm doing my mix. I like to keep my hands free so i can work on mixing the EQ and volume of the mix so the mix sounds very fluid. I don't like having to move my hand back and pitch adjust a song so everything stays on beat.
Nevertheless this is never avoidable. No mix is guarenteed to be prefectly on. There are too many variables. When you push start you affect the placement of the beats, you can't push start exactly the same twice. when you adjust the pitch to keep the beats on, you are moving the slider from its original location where you thought it was exact. The motor in the turntable isn't turning at exactly the same speed every time. it fluctuates off by fractions of a percent.
its just a matter of practice of being able to get them as exact as you can and being able to notice the slightest slip and fix it correctly.

I never hit the start button to start off a record i usually already have it playing, i just keep movin the record back and forth till i feel I should start the premixin in my headphones, this gives me a better feel for the beat as well.

I dont know if thats what alot of people do.. I've only been spinnin for about 8 days now but Ive learned to beatmatch and I will be puttin up my 1st mix ever up on the web soon for all to hear

lol I was just readingt over this listening to ETS global broadcast and Piet Blank just train wrecked...hehe

anyways, 8 days, nice. My only trouble at 8 days was I had 4 records.

I guess it boils down to style differences. I always start it only cued to make sure I start it right on, then mix it in. I usually keep count of what phase the track is in so I can match them up and start it a bit before I want both tracks to be active.

eh, just experiment and it will come with time.

Yeah, im up to 16 records now :P

oh and I usually play the tracks out from the beginning, and i just start them ahead of time and the way most trance tracks are they are all sectioned, and all sections are pretty much the same on all tracks. Its kinda hard to explain... But yeah, i keep the track that im gonna mix in next running till i feel that its right to either slowly mix or just flip the fader depends on what im mixin.

Re: Re: quick question concerning beat matching

quote:

Originally posted by JohnSmith I have the bad habit of touching the platter or spindle to speed it up/slow it down. this is noticeable in the song, especially if strings or a melody or continous tone is playing, you hear a noticeable warble in the song. the better way to to it is to "ride" the pitch by putting it slightly up/down, then back again. this is much less noticeable, and less risky because the record is less likely to skip. however, i always end up overcorrecting with this method, and having to ride the pitch the whole mix! practice makes perfect i suppose.

you have to play with the pitch sliders , you shouldn't touch the record or the platter if your in a mix

Re: Re: Re: quick question concerning beat matching

quote:

Originally posted by Arsalan you have to play with the pitch sliders , you shouldn't touch the record or the platter if your in a mix

that isn't true, i do both + there is no rules to say wot u can + cant do

i can get an ok lock in 5-6s or so i would say, about 10 beats, then its just minor ajustments which take from about 30s to the whole tune.

Re: Re: Re: quick question concerning beat matching

quote:

Originally posted by Arsalan you have to play with the pitch sliders , you shouldn't touch the record or the platter if your in a mix

the problem i have sometimes, is deciding which way to move the slider. slower or faster to fix it.

takes me roughly on avergage 30 sec.. there comes times where i have to match them on the fly, and i do. its maybe once every 5 records, where i can take my headphones off and just stand and watch the records mix them selves. its truly an art, and liek the other guy said practice makes perfect

Interesting...

You guys bring up a lot of points that are good.

In my experience (and that's about 16-17 years worth) I have learned that it has very little to do with your correction techniques and everything to do with how you hear the need for correction. Ultimately you should be training your ears to hear it early enough so that when you have to make a correction it's a minor one.

There is however a technical reason why "riding" the pitch may be better in some instances. If you are prone to being heavy handed on the deck platter you can actually affect the overall pitch that the deck is spinning for a time before it returns back to it's prior speed. This is however very subtle and is probably not actually going to affect your mix on the whole.
What you may notice is that if you tend to rely on touching the platter in a heavy fashion, is that everytime you do this all the bedroom DJs in the audience will look up and then speak to their mates and tell them that they could have done it better. Club Djing and Bedroom DJing are not the same however.

I use mainly pitch correction and the occasional spindle tweak. Another technique that I use is lightly spinning my index finger on the lable. This is useful if you need to gain a little bit of speed but don't want to tamper with the pitch. Another thing you can do with 33s that can be very useful if you have Technics is holding down the 33 button and giving the 45 a quick tap (It takes a bit of practice but is very useful once you master it).

With regards to how long it takes to match. Well, I often know the pitch before I put the record on the turntable give or take a little bit. Not because I write it down or anything but becuase of repetition. Sounds odd, but sometimes you can just feel what it needs to be. This is also true for corrections. Sometimes you can know what you need to do before it becomes apparent.

How fast you do it isn't really that important, speed will come in time. Getting it right is quite important but getting the track selection right is everything.
Practice is the only answer.

Cheers
Nem

I never thought about holding down the 33 button and giving the 45 a quick tap.. that sounds like a wonderful way to get your mixes matched. i'm gonna go try it right now.. thanks for the tip!

pEy

yeah, that's an interesting tip. I suppose you could do it the other way and slow it down too.

also, another thing you can do (if you have M3Ds) is tap the reset button, to get the pitch to momentarily come closer to 0.

Heya JohnSmith,

Sadly it does not work in reverse as in hold down 45 and tap 33. Not sure why but it doesn't.
I suppose that would just be making a DJs life too easy.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by diesel0 I've only been spinnin for about 8 days now but Ive learned to beatmatch

Holy shit 8 days and you can already beatmatch, WOW good for you .

NEMESIS- Everything you always said it's just perfect and soooo well explained .
Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.

Re: Re: quick question concerning beat matching

quote:

Originally posted by JohnSmith actually, i notice you said you were "+0.005 or -0.005 off" how do you know that? just a guess? or are you using CD decks that are that precise? I suppose with CD decks it could be possible to have the perfect beatmatch, as they are analogue not digital.

2 quick points.....cd decks are not analogue....they are digital.

even if you have the most precise cd players right now you can still only adjust by +/-.02%
therefore if you are playing a 135 bpm song the most you can change the pitch by is

135 X .02% = 0.027

this is the smallest amount by which you can adjust the bpm of a song using cd players.

how do you know you are getting within .005? thats pretty damn inpressive. at that accuracy you could hold a mix out for 10 minutes and it still would not be more than .05 bpm off. is this right?

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