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US Supreme Court ducks decision on 10 commandments

Court Won't Enter Ten Commandments Fight
By ANNE GEARAN, Associated Press Writer


WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court refused Monday to enter the long-running fight over an enormous monument depicting the Ten Commandments and the renegade judge who wants to put it back on display in an Alabama courthouse.


The court quietly rejected appeals from suspended Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore, who had argued the monument properly acknowledges "God as the source of the community morality so essential to a self-governing society."


Lower federal courts ruled Moore violated the Constitution's ban on government promotion of religion by placing the 5,300-pound granite monument in the rotunda of the state Judicial Building. In two appeals to the Supreme Court, Moore argued that lower federal courts do not have authority over a state's chief justice.


Moore was suspended as chief justice for defying a federal court order to remove the monument. He goes on trial before the Alabama Court of the Judiciary on Nov. 12 on judicial ethics violation charges.


Despite Moore's refusal to comply with the order, the monument was wheeled to an out-of-the-way storage room in August. Two weeks of protests by Moore's supporters followed. In recent weeks, demonstrators have carried the cause to the sidewalk outside the Supreme Court, with one protester dressed as Moses and carrying cardboard tablets.


The Supreme Court's action is not a ruling on the thorny question of whether the Ten Commandments may be displayed in government buildings or in the public square. It merely reflects the high court's unwillingness to hear the appeal.


Lower courts have splintered on the issue, allowing depictions of the Ten Commandments in some instances and not in others.


Moore challenged the high court to settle the question once and for all, and accused the justices of ducking their responsibility to clarify murky questions about the constitutional principle of separation of church and state.


The Supreme Court recently took on another divisive case about government and religion. Sometime next year, the justices will hear the case of a California atheist who objects to the phrase "one nation under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.


The Constitution sets out no absolute divide between God and government, and Moore argued that his Ten Commandments display was in keeping with the religious vision of the nation's founders.


The First Amendment guarantees that government will not actively endorse religion in general or favor one faith over another. The same amendment also guarantees an individual's right to worship as he pleases.


The Ten Commandments contain both religious and secular directives, including the familiar bans on stealing, killing and adultery. The Bible says God gave the list to Moses.


Two years ago, the high court divided bitterly over whether to hear another case testing whether a different Ten Commandments monument could be displayed outside a civic building.


The court opted at that time not to hear that case, but four justices nonetheless staked out a position on the issue.


The three most conservative justices said they found nothing wrong with display of that monument outside the building housing local courts and prosecutors, city leaders in Elkhart, Ind. The setting reflected the cultural, historical and legal significance of the commandments, Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist wrote for himself and Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas.


The monument "simply reflects the Ten Commandments' role in the development of our legal system," Rehnquist wrote for the three. He noted that "a carving of Moses holding the Ten Commandments, surrounded by representations of other historical legal figures, adorns the frieze on the south wall of our courtroom."


At the opposite ideological end of the court, Justice John Paul Stevens (news - web sites) wrote that the words "I am the Lord thy God," in the first line of the Elkhart monument's inscription are "rather hard to square with the proposition that the monument expresses no particular religious preference," Stevens wrote then.

The cases are In re Moore, 03-258 and Moore v. Glassroth 03-468.

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On the one hand this is good because it means the lower court rulings will stand, but on the other it may have been better for the court to set a legal precedent for the entire country when it comes to religious displays on buildings such as courthouses. My feeling is that to display religious edicts on a courthouse gives the impression that the State is favorable of one religion, and it undermines the assumption that a person who subscribes to different beliefs can recieve a fair trial.

On another note, do the courthouses in Israel display the 10 commandments, and are non-Jews (like myself even though my name first and last name are jewish lol) able to recieve a fair trial there?

Similarly in state-supported Islamic countries, it seems doubtful that a non-muslim could recive a fair and impartial trial.
As far as I'm concerned, religion and the judicial system are a dangerous mix.

I view it as a victory ... the supreme court is essentially telling Moore that he's an idiot, and he's not worth their time and effort.

In another victory of common sense and tolerance ...

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeas...tion/index.html

All in all, I would say that it was a good day of enlightenment for the church and state

Wheee, I'm happy whenever I see religion of any sort taking a beating.

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Wheee, I'm happy whenever I see religion of any sort taking a beating.

This is indeed nice to see.

THIS CANNOT BE!!! INFIDELS!!!

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Wheee, I'm happy whenever I see religion of any sort taking a beating.

Even the church of the subgenius???

http://www.subgenius.com/

Blasphemy!!! What are you ... one of those productive people???

Re: US Supreme Court ducks decision on 10 commandments

Here we go again.

quote:

Originally posted by DaveSaenz The court quietly rejected appeals from suspended Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore, who had argued the monument properly acknowledges "God as the source of the community morality so essential to a self-governing society."

This is the crux of the problem: which God is he talking about? As the article states, the first ammendment decrees that the state shall offer no ideological preference to any religion (which would include, say, sanctioning the myth that any religion is more correct or more righteous than any other), yet depositing a concrete manifestation of the main moral tennet of a specific religion in a court-house does just this: it propogates the myth the Judeo-Christian morality specifically is the basis for human morality in general. If Roy Moore wants to work in the Judicial branch of the state/nation, he needs to realise that he cannot sanction any specific religion on behalf of the state (i.e. by depositing the Ten Commandments in the main entrance of the building). If he wants to stick the ten commandments in his front yard then it's a freedom of religion issue, but when he sticks them in the middle of state property it's no longer his decision to make.

I know I'm preaching to the converted here (pun intended), but this issue just really irks me.

quote:

The Constitution sets out no absolute divide between God and government, and Moore argued that his Ten Commandments display was in keeping with the religious vision of the nation's founders.

Ah yes, the good old pious Christian founding fathers. As good a rationale as any to fall back on. Oh, except for the fact that it's demonstrably false:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mod..._till/myth.html

And I can be fairly certain (without having any concrete evidence) that something very close to an absolute divide was very much in the minds of the founding fathers when they drafted the constitution. Many of them were schooled in Europe during the back end of the European enlightenment, in a situation where many countries were only just emerging from several centuries of church and state led oppression (the church, of course, meaning the Catholic Church). If the founding fathers picked up anything from their studies in Europe at all, they would have been accutely aware of the dangers posed to society by an amalgamation of the state and a specific religious denomination. Including also the fact that the US was and still is a predominantly Protestant nation (protestantism emerging from the rejection of the dogmatic control the Catholic church held over theology and society more broadly), I don't think the founding fathers would have been too interested in leaving open a "back-door" for governments in the future to allign themselves with any dominant religious ideology. They weren't Christians and they certainly wouldn't have wanted the ten commandments in their court-houses.

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Originally posted by occrider Even the church of the subgenius??? http://www.subgenius.com/ Blasphemy!!! What are you ... one of those productive people???

My God's better than your God:

http://www.palmyra.demon.co.uk/humour/ipu.htm

Uh Oh ...
http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/ma...news/2003/10/15

Edit: oh and btw, point out the hypocrisy and win nothing from me.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Uh Oh ... http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/ma...news/2003/10/15

Uh-Oh indeed, i guess there's no use for that 'support' group i've been trying to build all this time.

I consider myself a protestant, and its a pity that those 10 commandments came down, but what can i do, i dont follow christianity...akkk.....dont want to think about going to hell....i feel bad now......of course you will say religion is only for making you feel bad....go ahead and say!!

They shouldn't have taken the 10 commandments out..They should have left them there.They are extremely important!

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 They shouldn't have taken the 10 commandments out..They should have left them there.They are extremely important!

it isn't the importance of the 10 commandments that makes this controversial. it is the fact that they are in a courthouse. Putting the 10 commandments in a courthouse is only the begining of pro-christian bias in the courthouse. the law SHOULD be without religion. If we allow one religion to implement it's believes into the judicial system, then members of other religions have predispositions when they enter that courthouse. What is considered "wrong" in one religion may not be considered "wrong" in another. This would defeat the whole idea of a fair trial.

quote:

Originally posted by nic01445 it isn't the importance of the 10 commandments that makes this controversial. it is the fact that they are in a courthouse. Putting the 10 commandments in a courthouse is only the begining of pro-christian bias in the courthouse. the law SHOULD be without religion. If we allow one religion to implement it's believes into the judicial system, then members of other religions have predispositions when they enter that courthouse. What is considered "wrong" in one religion may not be considered "wrong" in another. This would defeat the whole idea of a fair trial.

Christianity isn't a religion,It's a relationship and belief in God. (Yes, I know.I'm a Christian.) Religion is Catholocism, and things like that. The 10 commandments are important. VERY important. They shouldn't have been taken out.

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Christianity isn't a religion,It's a relationship and belief in God. (Yes, I know.I'm a Christian.) Religion is Catholocism, and things like that. The 10 commandments are important. VERY important. They shouldn't have been taken out.

what are you talking about?

quote:

Originally posted by nic01445 what are you talking about?

You were refering to Christianity,like it's a religion. But,it's not.

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 You were refering to Christianity,like it's a religion. But,it's not.

it...is...a...religion...

It's just someone fucking around I think.

quote:

Originally posted by nic01445 it...is...a...religion...

It isn't. Christianity is a relationship with God,and a belief in God.

quote:

Originally posted by nic01445 it isn't the importance of the 10 commandments that makes this controversial. it is the fact that they are in a courthouse. Putting the 10 commandments in a courthouse is only the begining of pro-christian bias in the courthouse. the law SHOULD be without religion. If we allow one religion to implement it's believes into the judicial system, then members of other religions have predispositions when they enter that courthouse. What is considered "wrong" in one religion may not be considered "wrong" in another. This would defeat the whole idea of a fair trial.

Alright,here's something to feed to the Debate.

Which church does the 10 Commandments promote??

Also..
If the 10 commandments have a confliction of religion where is it the governments responsibility to deconflict it?

I am one big jumbled mess of religion (Father being Jewish, Mother being Roman Catholic), however, I don't believe that the Ten Commandments should have stayed in front of the courthouse.

As stated:

quote:

The First Amendment guarantees that government will not actively endorse religion in general or favor one faith over another. The same amendment also guarantees an individual's right to worship as he pleases.

If we continue to leave the Ten Commandments in front of a courthouse, then are we not favoring a religion? Does that not make a follower of Buddha shy away from the courthouse?

It seems more sufficient, to perhaps have a monument of the Civil Rights, that to have the Ten Commandments. The Civil Rights pertain to each and every American. The Ten Commandments pertain only to a certain group.

Beliefs should be placed aside on this topic. How can we preach equality if we are already biased on Religion?

quote:

Originally posted by anuneventrade I am one big jumbled mess of religion (Father being Jewish, Mother being Roman Catholic), however, I don't believe that the Ten Commandments should have stayed in front of the courthouse. As stated: If we continue to leave the Ten Commandments in front of a courthouse, then are we not favoring a religion? Does that not make a follower of Buddha shy away from the courthouse? It seems more sufficient, to perhaps have a monument of the Civil Rights, that to have the Ten Commandments. The Civil Rights pertain to each and every American. The Ten Commandments pertain only to a certain group. Beliefs should be placed aside on this topic. How can we preach equality if we are already biased on Religion?

Well said.

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Christianity isn't a religion,It's a relationship and belief in God. (Yes, I know.I'm a Christian.) Religion is Catholocism, and things like that. The 10 commandments are important. VERY important. They shouldn't have been taken out.

Uhm....

Ya ok...MrS is pulling out his dictionary again.

quote:

Main Entry: re�li�gion Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n Function: noun Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religiosupernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY Date: 13th century 1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance 2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religiousattitudes, beliefs, and practices 3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS 4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

Looks like what you said is Chrisitanity fits well within definition 2.

As for Catholicism...

quote:

One entry found for Christianity. Main Entry: Chris�tian�i�ty Pronunciation: "kris-chE-'a-n&-tE, "krish-, -'cha-n&-, "kris-tE-'a- Function: noun Date: 14th century 1 : the religion derived from Jesus Christ , based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies 2 : conformity to the Christian religion 3 : CHRISTENDOM 2

See there miss/mister.....Catholics are Christians just as much as Baptists, Luterans, Anglicans, Pentacostals, etc. In fact with the exception of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, ALL Christian faiths are an off-shoot of catholicism. The whole term "protestant" comes from Martin Luthers protest of the way in which the Catholic church was organized.

So, basically said, your religion is Christianity. Whether or not you choose to think so is up to you. But there is no reliable argument otherwise.

MrS

"In god we trust."

Funny, there hasen't been this many problems with society since they banned prayer in schools, it's not always about the religious aspect. The 10 commandments are a set of rules of all humanity, some are even laws. Can we say, because "Thou shalt not steal" is on the 10 commandments, that we should begin stealing? It's a peacful religion, if it's concidered a religion.. it used to be a standard way of life.

1. Thou shalt not have other gods before me.
- It doesen't mean God should be your only savior, it can also mean "Don't dwell on material things, you dont get to keep them in the afterlife."


2. You shall not make of yourself a carved image.
- Don't worship the tree's, they wont get you shit.

3. Thall shalt not take the LORDS name in VAIN.
- God damnit IS considered a swear word in any part of the world. Not because it's religious. Just like fuck, and shit, and the rest of them. It's telling you not to swear.

4. Remember the sabbath day and keep it holy.
- Time with your children can still be considered a sabbath day.

5. Honor your mother and father.
- Show respect for your parents. This is used in every day life, it's just a part of the christian religion.

6. You shall not murder.
- Gee. Imagine that as a 10 commandment.

7. Dont commity adultry
- Don't cheat on your wife. Do you think religion put this law there? You know not to cheat on your wife, wether christian or buddhist. You don't do it.

8. You shall not steal
- Steal a car, denounce your religion.

9. Dont bear false witness against your neighbour.
- Take a guess at what that means.

10. Dont covet your neighbours house, wife, car, or his money.
- Don't be a greedy little fuck, it wont get you anywhere. Work for a living, like your neighbour did.


The 10 commandments aren't just a religious tablet, they are our laws. Our MORAL laws, they keep us on our toes, they tell us what's right and whats wrong. Not because God said so.

Leave it in the courthouse, and follow it in your daily life.

Even satanists believe in God.

- neoh

quote:

Originally posted by neoh Funny, there hasen't been this many problems with society since they banned prayer in schools

Post Hoc/Complex Cause fallacy here. You can't assume that the the banning of school prayer was the cause of this - it's more likely to be the complete and utter lack of discipline in childhood.

quote:

it's not always about the religious aspect. The 10 commandments are a set of rules of all humanity, some are even laws.

They're a set of rules for one (or a few) particular religions. Whether or not the following of those rules results in positive consequences is not the issue here.

quote:

Can we say, because "Thou shalt not steal" is on the 10 commandments, that we should begin stealing?

I don't think anybody was implying that taking away the tablets meant doing the exact opposite of each commandment.

quote:

It's a peacful religion, if it's concidered a religion.. it used to be a standard way of life.

It used to be a standard way of life mostly because of forced conversions. Besides, how do you define "standard?" Let's not forget that there have always been millions of Jews, billions of Hindu...

quote:

1. Thou shalt not have other gods before me. - It doesen't mean God should be your only savior, it can also mean "Don't dwell on material things, you dont get to keep them in the afterlife."

...which requires a belief in the afterlife. Not to mention a belief in spirituality (nonmaterial things). You can redefine this any way you want, but it's most certainly a religious reference.

quote:

2. You shall not make of yourself a carved image. - Don't worship the tree's, they wont get you shit.

How do you know that? I'm as keen to believe that trees will give you as much shit as some invisible intangible entity that no one's been able to conclusively identify.

quote:

3. Thall shalt not take the LORDS name in VAIN. - God damnit IS considered a swear word in any part of the world. Not because it's religious. Just like fuck, and shit, and the rest of them. It's telling you not to swear.

"Don't swear." Are we in pre-school here? Anyway, it's considered a "swear word" because of the obvious religious indoctrination of children.

quote:

4. Remember the sabbath day and keep it holy. - Time with your children can still be considered a sabbath day.

Sab�bath
n.

1. The seventh day of the week, Saturday, observed as the day of rest and worship by the Jews and some Christian sects.
2. The first day of the week, Sunday, observed as the day of rest and worship by most Christians.

The American Heritage Dictionary seems to disagree with you on this one.

quote:

5. Honor your mother and father. - Show respect for your parents. This is used in every day life, it's just a part of the christian religion.

I'm sure this is a great thing to do, but if it's such common sense, then why does it need to be a commandment?

quote:

6. You shall not murder. - Gee. Imagine that as a 10 commandment.

I don't have to imagine, it's there. This is also in our Criminal Code, so I don't think we need any religious references to it.

quote:

7. Dont commity adultry - Don't cheat on your wife. Do you think religion put this law there? You know not to cheat on your wife, wether christian or buddhist. You don't do it.

Actually, I'd have to say that religion did put this law there, since bigamy is actually legal in several places.

quote:

8. You shall not steal - Steal a car, denounce your religion.

What does "denounce your religion" have to do with this?

quote:

9. Dont bear false witness against your neighbour. - Take a guess at what that means.

Basically saying, don't lie in court. I don't think we need religion to teach us that lying in court is inherently harmful to the judicial process.

quote:

10. Dont covet your neighbours house, wife, car, or his money. - Don't be a greedy little fuck, it wont get you anywhere. Work for a living, like your neighbour did.

Actually, coveting is jealousy, not greed. In any case, jealousy is a human emotion, whether we like it or not - yet another commandment telling us to fight our animalistic (territorial) instincts. Lovely.

quote:

The 10 commandments aren't just a religious tablet, they are our laws. Our MORAL laws, they keep us on our toes, they tell us what's right and whats wrong. Not because God said so.

Moral laws decided on by who? That's right, the Christians! (Or maybe the Jews... who cares). Maybe I'd like someone else to tell me what's right or wrong - perhaps the courts can do that?

quote:

Leave it in the courthouse, and follow it in your daily life.

It has no place in the courthouse. The courthouse is a house of laws, not morals.

quote:

Even satanists believe in God.

But atheists do not. And Pagans don't believe in a single "God" either.

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