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EU Constitution and the role of Christianity

I've been reading several articles on the hotly debated issue of mentioning Christianity in the drafting of the EU Constitution. There are two very definite stances: one, which is led by France, is to be strictly secular; the other is led by a grouping of more "religious" countries such as Italy, Spain and Portugal, that want a reference to Christianity. Tonight, I read yet another article at the online edition of the Telegraph newspaper. According to that article, certain elder statesmen and Nobel laureates have been highly critical of France's position, which they view as being insistent on foisting secularism onto the masses. I wonder what your views are. Should there be a reference to religion in the EU Constitution or should it be largely empty of such sympathies? Also, in line with this, what are your views on France's desire to remove all religious references from French schools and institutions, making it more-or-less illegal to display a religious preference. For example, under this new law, Islamic women would not be permitted to wear a headcovering (hejab) while working in any French institutions. Could that be viewed as a lessening of personal freedoms? I personally am not at all religious, and so do not have an issue with increased secularism, but I wonder how these developments will be greeted by the ordinary man and woman in Europe. What are your thoughts?

I doubt you'll find many people here who would support putting references to Christianity in the EU Constitution.

Some of France's policies, as you've described them, strike me as a bit odd, though. However, I can't say as though I'm sufficiently educated on their particularities to form an intelligent stance on them.

In general, I think religious references in legal documents is a severe detriment to the legitimacy of those documents. However, I don't particularly support the type of Globalization the EU represents, so if they want to sabotage their legitimacy I certainly wouldn't be especially opposed to it.

Cheers,

Arbiter

France is somewhat right on track in my opinion. Government should neither endorse nor restrict religion in any way whatsoever. The US founding fathers laid the backdrop perfectly, the First Amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" ... Therefore the French government is correct in aspiring towards a secular government, however, it is incorrect in seeking to ban the head coverings. In accordance with the right to freedom of religion, the French governemnt cannot ban the hejab in as much as it cannot ban people from wearing catholic crosses. The one thing I love about the US government and its court system is its insistence for secularism ... for example the case of the pledge of alliegeance being sent to the Supreme court for a relatively minor phrase invoking God. Plus here's another good thing:

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/11/...ents/index.html

Re: EU Constitution and the role of Christianity

quote:

Originally posted by cfyoung4 Also, in line with this, what are your views on France's desire to remove all religious references from French schools and institutions, making it more-or-less illegal to display a religious preference. For example, under this new law, Islamic women would not be permitted to wear a headcovering (hejab) while working in any French institutions

First of all I surprisingly( cause its still Francw we're talking about!) support the French efforts for a secular institution. The state should not intervene into one's personal faith whatsoever. Any reference would be pointing into a certain direction and would therefore be 'biased' (does th term fit in this context, Arbiter? ).

But there's a huge difference between removing religious smybols from public institutions and forcing all individuals to abandon their own religious symbols. The first rule concerns the STATE the second one the INDIVIDUAL. As mentioned above the STATE must not force any belief/faith upon the people, but every single individual is totally entitled to believe and practice his faith as long as it doesn't directly affect others.
There was a debate some months ago, concerning a Muslim teacher wearing the Hejab in her classroom. That's a bit of a dilemma in that it is both her personal excercise of religion but simultaneously a public proclamation, as she is also somewhat connected to the state in her role as a TEACHER. A bit similiar to the cross in the classroom. Should Muslim women "forget" about her religion when appearing in public positions?

Tough, tough

It would be pretty difficult (and unwise) to include anything condoning a specific religion in a constituion that's meant for several disparate cultures. I'm not necessarily saying that the constitution should explicitly forbid the possibility of individual nations adopting an "official" religion, but the states should be able to decide that for themselves. That is, the EU constitution should make no reference whatsoever to religion or spirituality and should allow the member states to draft their own preferences into their own individual constitutions.

WTF is wrong with you guys?? You have a unique opprotunity to support something that is both (1) hateful to the French and (2) would bring about the end of the EU...

I am definetly for Christianty in their constitution! Take that you frog eaters!

I don't get it what's wrong with you guys?




On a serious note, I do belive there should be a reference to religion in a constiution, a reference similar to that in the US constiution whereby it protects the institution of religions from the power of the state.

Second, I have no problem with the EU acknowledging a God or divine power, however a specific religion is more conterversial. I'm just glad to hear Spain and Italy (both the US's allies in Iraq) now have a reason to sympathize with our hatered of the French.

i'm not a religious guy, but I believe that Christianity should be included in the constitution... not for its religious implications but its cultural ones.

I think the countries that want Christianity in there are the same ones who don't want to see Turkey in the EU, and I don't see anything wrong with that. EUropean countries are different in essence to Turkey and other none Christian countries.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider France is somewhat right on track in my opinion. Government should neither endorse nor restrict religion in any way whatsoever. The US founding fathers laid the backdrop perfectly, the First Amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" ... Therefore the French government is correct in aspiring towards a secular government, however, it is incorrect in seeking to ban the head coverings. In accordance with the right to freedom of religion, the French governemnt cannot ban the hejab in as much as it cannot ban people from wearing catholic crosses. The one thing I love about the US government and its court system is its insistence for secularism ... for example the case of the pledge of alliegeance being sent to the Supreme court for a relatively minor phrase invoking God. Plus here's another good thing: http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/11/...ents/index.html

werd

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus WTF is wrong with you guys?? You have a unique opprotunity to support something that is both (1) hateful to the French and (2) would bring about the end of the EU...

i like the french and the EU

I support France on this issue. The mention of the role of christianity in the EU constitution is rediculous. No normal country has such a thing. On the other hand, the issue of that teacher woman is a bit more unclear, but still, I don't believe teachers should present their religious symbols to the children.

quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek i'm not a religious guy, but I believe that Christianity should be included in the constitution... not for its religious implications but its cultural ones. I think the countries that want Christianity in there are the same ones who don't want to see Turkey in the EU, and I don't see anything wrong with that. EUropean countries are different in essence to Turkey and other none Christian countries.

I disagree, the fact is that Christianity is, well, a religion, and if you include it, then it will have religious 'implications' so to speak. The EU should not throw it's weight behind any specific religion, people should be free to practice whichever faith they choose (Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Buhidism, Traditional CHinese, whatever). If any refference to religion is made, it should relate to people's freedom to follow their own faith. The EU should be Secular imho.

I do agree in a secularized Constitution for the EU, but I have deep misgivings concerning France's attempt to make the personal expression of religion illegal within various State institutions. It seems the very height of absurdity that I would be engaging in a criminal act merely because I wear a cross necklace (or Star of David, hejab, etc.). That, to me, definitely seems like a removal of personal freedoms. If this is made illegal, the question then arises, "What's next?" Wouldn't the wearing of such items fall under freedom of speech and freedom of expression? Perhaps I am wrong, but I think it is considered a right in the U.S. to wear what you want without the govenment passing inspection on what clothes or jewelry I wear.

quote:

Originally posted by arctic I disagree, the fact is that Christianity is, well, a religion, and if you include it, then it will have religious 'implications' so to speak. The EU should not throw it's weight behind any specific religion, people should be free to practice whichever faith they choose (Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Buhidism, Traditional CHinese, whatever). If any refference to religion is made, it should relate to people's freedom to follow their own faith. The EU should be Secular imho.

you didn't get my point.

quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek you didn't get my point.

Ok, you said that christianity should be included in the EU constitution. I think that doing that can easily be interpreted as the EU supporting one religion over another, regardless of the fact that it may be for cultural reasons. If i was a Muslim, Hindu, Buhidist etc or a Jew living in an EU member state, that would anger me greatly to have Christianity officially mentioned/supported in the constitution; even a mere mention would be irritating/wrong in my opinion.

As for the Turkey point, I must admit that I really don't know much about the situation there, but doesn't the EU exist to represent the geographical region of Europe?
The fact that Turkey may be culturally different or have higher numbers of Islamic (just an example ) people shouldn't really come into it

quote:

Originally posted by arctic Ok, you said that christianity should be included in the EU constitution. I think that doing that can easily be interpreted as the EU supporting one religion over another, regardless of the fact that it may be for cultural reasons. If i was a Muslim, Hindu, Buhidist etc or a Jew living in an EU member state, that would anger me greatly to have Christianity officially mentioned/supported in the constitution; even a mere mention would be irritating/wrong in my opinion.

why would they be irritated? they immigrated to a country where Christians (or other majorities) live. No one is opressing anyone or stating that Christianity is an obligatory religion (wtf?) to citizens of such or such state.

quote:

As for the Turkey point, I must admit that I really don't know much about the situation there,

quote:

but doesn't the EU exist to represent the geographical region of Europe?

Europe as a geographical continent doesn't exist. Its only an historical invention, which never included Turkey.

quote:

The fact that Turkey may be culturally different or have higher numbers of Islamic (just an example ) people shouldn't really come into it

whats the point of having an EUROPEAN union if it was to include every other country that doesn't even share basic common european cultural elements which are very close to the Christian values... I hope you get my point now.

quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek why would they be irritated? they immigrated to a country where Christians (or other majorities) live. No one is opressing anyone or stating that Christianity is an obligatory religion (wtf?) to citizens of such or such state. Europe as a geographical continent doesn't exist. Its only an historical invention, which never included Turkey. whats the point of having an EUROPEAN union if it was to include every other country that doesn't even share basic common european cultural elements which are very close to the Christian values... I hope you get my point now.

Believe it or not, I do see what you're saying, perhaps the fact that I don't live in Europe and hence don't hear a whole lot about the Turkey situation might have us on different wavelengths here.

Basically I just think that Christianity shouldn't be mentioned unless it is to state that it isn't a state religion and people are free to practice whatever faith they choose.
I still don't really get why it should be mentioned

The way EUrope and Turkey is portrayed in the media down here appears to be having an effect on my view , I've always seen Turkey as somewhat close (Culturally) to most European countries, I realize that they are rather backward in some of their pracitces. I don't support their death penalty in any shape or form, nor their treatment of the Kurds. I know that Turkey isn't perfect, I guess I think that accepting them migh have some affect on them, entice them to change their practices/discriminatry policies if they feel accepted as part of wider Europe.

quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek i'm not a religious guy, but I believe that Christianity should be included in the constitution... not for its religious implications but its cultural ones. I think the countries that want Christianity in there are the same ones who don't want to see Turkey in the EU, and I don't see anything wrong with that. EUropean countries are different in essence to Turkey and other none Christian countries.

*applause*

I share your views to the letter on this one.
The EU is really in an identity crisis, as there is no clear vision of where this project should go next. Should it be a larger free-trade zone or should it eventually turn into an integrated state? I used to advocate the first direction, but has lately started to focus on the traits that europeans share rather than their differences. And to me it seems like christianity is a common denominator - not as a religion but as a cornerstone of the european mentality. I would like something like that to be put into a constitution. Along with it I would put the values we have inherited from ancient Greece: Seperation of state from religion, democracy, the scientific method, etc.
Such a constitution would exclude Turkey, Russia, and african countries from joining, but would IMO be a much more realistic project. All over Europe there exist areas where immigrants are isolated/have isolated themselves. If we can't even create synergy on such small scales, we have no chance of doing it on a supernational level I think. Too bad that having this view is really not PC in Europe these days, and since Bush is pushing for acceptance of Turkey into the EU, you will have a hard time finding a politician in power with the guts to say it.

On the topic of the French banning religious apparel, I agree that it does seem to limit religious freedom, and the state really shouldn't put rules for how to dress in institutions. But should religious freedom always come before other kinds of freedom?
In Denmark we have had a couple of court cases where muslims have been fired, because they insisted on wearing headbands, or because they need to pray on regular basis throughout the day. In my view an employer should be given the freedom of choosing what kind of image his or her company projects to the surroundings. If that image is not compatible with employees wearing religious apparel then he or she should be allowed to fire them. Just as I would fire a guy wearing swastikas and military boots. I guess that in most of these cases, a majority of the customers do not really care, but I still do not think that society has any right to tell a private business who they can fire and who they cannot.

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