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BASS LOSS when mixing

hey guys, some tunes just dont go together. (bass wise) so i loose the bass.. i know for sure that the tunes are beatmatched perfectly but for some reason i still loose it like 4 counts i loose bass then it'll come back again. is it the volume of the record coming in or is it something with the EQ? any tips? thanks in advance1!!

make sure you are mixing in phase. Are you cueing up the record and throwing it in at the beginning of a 4? Make sure you are mixing in phase, or else you get cancelling of beats instead of the beat "complementation" that you want and makes the beat stronger.

| x x x x | x x x x | x x x x | x x x x |
..^

positions to drop track in indicated with ^ on 4by4 bars.

Im not sure if this is what you are looking for.

I don't understand well what you've written, but i believe that's a melody clash. It happens when tunes heave keys which don't combine.

There is no way to mix keys which don't combine. You just have to choose another track...

Even without any musical education, it's easy to spot if the keys don't go along with each other. Just beatmatch the tunes right, leave them to play a min or so and you'll spot the clash, especially in the higher frequencies.

I used to mix like this, but I changed my style up completely. I assume when you are mixing in you are keeping the bass on both records. DOn't. Turn the incoming record's bass about half way off and when you match up the phrases at the right time, turn the new song;s bass on, and the old one's off. It makes for sweet smooth sounding mixing. But beware on volume levels and make sure the two songs go we together otherwards its not gonna sound too great.


-Steve

Re: BASS LOSS when mixing

quote:

Originally posted by Clyde77 hey guys, some tunes just dont go together. (bass wise) so i loose the bass.. i know for sure that the tunes are beatmatched perfectly but for some reason i still loose it like 4 counts i loose bass then it'll come back again. is it the volume of the record coming in or is it something with the EQ? any tips? thanks in advance1!!

Hey there Clyde,

I think what seems to be the problem is this. When you are mixing you are actually getting the kick drums matched pretty spot on (give or take a little as with all of us ). When this happens, if you are not using your EQs correctly the waveforms of the kick drum on each track will start to cancel eachother out.

Try this:
First of all you have to get used to the idea of using your EQs more. Although I will say that on the whole it's only the bass EQ that's really useful. You do get other DJs using the Mid and High but on the whole it doesn't really do anything essential to the mix in my opinion until you really know how to use it.
I'm assuming that you have gain on your mixer also.

1. If you are using the crossfader for mixing then stop. Leave this in the middle and use the channel faders instead. This will give you more control over incomming/outgoing tracks.

2. Have the gain of the incomming track turned down slightly and the bass down a whole lot more. *Remember that some mixers have different frequency ranges on their EQs so all the way down may be too much on some mixers.*

3. Slam in or Fade in the incomming track (depending on the mood you are creating).

4. Turn the bass down slightly on the outgoing track and bring the gain on the incomming track up.

5. Now bring the bass down a little more on the outgoing and up a little on the incomming.

And so on...

This is only a rough guide as each mix will be different but just to give you an idea of what you could do. This does take a bit of practice and you will probably find somethings that work for you.

Dmatrox also mentioned 'Phrase' matching which will definately help improve things with regards to how and when you use your EQs as you can use the music to que the EQ events for you i.e. at the end of a drum roll swap the basses completely by turning down the outgoing bass EQ and turning up the incomming.

And as Evan mentioned, make sure you get the relative volumes of the tracks sorted out before hand in your phones. Best to rely on sound as LEDs can be very missleading.

If you mean the bass as in the bass sound rather than the drum sound you may well find you have a key clash as Borron mentioned. That is a whole new world that you are about to step into... welcome to keys and harmonics.


Cheers
Nem

if your mixer has individual channel L-R balance, you can try offsetting those a bit, that might take away from the bass-clash you are talking about

Good words from Nem. I've found that when the bass of two songs cancel each other out due to spot on beatmatching, that by getting them slightly un-beatmatched it will still sound beatmatched but the bass beats will both be hitting.

I hope that makes some sense, and by no means am I advocating bad beatmatching!...just that hearing the bass cancel each other out can be quite annoying on my speakers, let alone big club speakers.

Well this little phenomenon is known as "flanging". When the two separate channels you're mixing offset each other, they cancel one another out. I'm not entirely certain about the science behind it, but it only occurs when the frequencies of two separate channels (usually under the 700hz range) are equal in gain and "perfectly" synced. Hence the reason it only happens for 1-4 beats.

quote:

Originally posted by YellowG555 Good words from Nem. I've found that when the bass of two songs cancel each other out due to spot on beatmatching, that by getting them slightly un-beatmatched it will still sound beatmatched but the bass beats will both be hitting. I hope that makes some sense, and by no means am I advocating bad beatmatching!...just that hearing the bass cancel each other out can be quite annoying on my speakers, let alone big club speakers.

True, this can be done by VERY slighty touching one of your records. It is only a solution though, when you have both tracks exactly beatmatched.. When they only do it for a few beats, then they're not exactly beatmatched (since they're drifting away from each other), and then the mixing techniques from Nemesis could come in quite handy

What I usually do is either get them a little bit off to get more bass, or I'll kill one frequency (or at least move them to -26 dB since my mixer supports -32 and it sounds bad) while turning the other track's bass completely on. That happened in 4 transitions during the last cd I recorded

thank you guys for the help..

i tried all the things you said. what worked was the killing of the bass of the incoming song then slowly turning it up while slowly turning down the bass of the outgoing. (this worked with some records, but not all)

ive only started mixing 6 months ago, ill play around some more, hopefully get this problem solved. and also ill maybe buy new mixers.

thanks for the help again !!!!

It takes a bit of practice but it will become like second nature to you in a short time. You will find that you will be able to do it with most of your records in time.

cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by Evan Almae I used to mix like this, but I changed my style up completely. I assume when you are mixing in you are keeping the bass on both records. DOn't. Turn the incoming record's bass about half way off and when you match up the phrases at the right time, turn the new song;s bass on, and the old one's off. It makes for sweet smooth sounding mixing. But beware on volume levels and make sure the two songs go we together otherwards its not gonna sound too great. -Steve

Yeah, what I would've said. By the way, the loss of bass is what happens when the beats cancel eachother out. That's what happens when you mix most records unless you do what Steve said. I myself enjoy the beats canceling most of the time, but I have started to take a liking to the whole bring in one bass, drop out the other bass at that critical point. The mix is less noticeable and it keeps the energy going better sometimes.

Anyway, I'm out.

Since I am going to grad school I know an Auditory specialist. He runs research on audition. I am trying to figure out what physically makes the bass go out. Now this has only happen to me a couple of times, so I might have to ask you guys questions.

but this phenonmenon even happens in your head phones right. Because there is a thing where sound waves reverberate back and sync up to cancel each other. but if it works in your headphones it would not be that.


also could someone record this?

http://pwp.netcabo.pt/0151463301/timeless.mp3

ok not the best example of beats cancelling that I had, but in hard trance I like it actually and I think at some points you can find them pretty evident on this sample
from the theme (dumonde remix) to timeless

quote:

Originally posted by benoitfan http://pwp.netcabo.pt/0151463301/timeless.mp3 ok not the best example of beats cancelling that I had, but in hard trance I like it actually and I think at some points you can find them pretty evident on this sample from the theme (dumonde remix) to timeless

cool thanks. and is that you turning the bass out at around 1:00?

yeh timeless has a small break where I like to throw the other track's bass in

gotcha, thanks for the sample. I think we might try to make an experiment out of this phenomenon. maybe even get a publication . depends if we figure it out.

thanks.

well I have more if you like, I even have one in one recorded set of mine(must look for it)where the beats cancel only in the final beat of the measure, for like 4 measures... weird stuff! lol

Hey Benito,

Nice touch with the bass there in Timeless. When I do that trick I usually use it more like a drum roll but we all have our different styles.


On a technical DJ note, what you may want to try with those to tracks is a quick changeover rather than keep both in at those levels because you have Timeless comming in at an incompatible key. You would get a more uplifting effect on a dancefloor if you just did a complete bass swap. This would work really well as Timeless just goes up one or two notes.

I tell you a mix you should try if you have the record. David Forbes - Sympatico into Timeless. Those records are in the same key and thus you avoid the key class between the two in the sample. I usually start Timeless just as the breakdown on Sympatico finishes. You can leave both running for ages. Try it if you can and tell me what you think.

Cheers
Nem

it's all basic physics. Sound is a wave form. when you have two waves sitting over eachother, if the peaks on both waves line up, the result is a bigger wave than either. If the peak on one wave lines up with a trough on the other, you end up with a flat total sound. So if your beatmatching is absolutely dead on the result is a flat bass. A tiny touch will stop this, and normally you'll notice the bass come back by itself in a couple of bars, as beatmatching isn't likely to be that precise. Not sure of the exact numbers, but i think the wavelength of the base is something like 2 milliseconds, so there's not much in it. EQ's can have the same effect, so the two waves are rarely the same size, so cannot cancel eachother out as perfectly

quote:

Originally posted by tubby it's all basic physics. Sound is a wave form. when you have two waves sitting over eachother, if the peaks on both waves line up, the result is a bigger wave than either. If the peak on one wave lines up with a trough on the other, you end up with a flat total sound. So if your beatmatching is absolutely dead on the result is a flat bass. A tiny touch will stop this, and normally you'll notice the bass come back by itself in a couple of bars, as beatmatching isn't likely to be that precise. Not sure of the exact numbers, but i think the wavelength of the base is something like 2 milliseconds, so there's not much in it. EQ's can have the same effect, so the two waves are rarely the same size, so cannot cancel eachother out as perfectly

Exactly,

Hence the reason to EQ well.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Hey Benito, Nice touch with the bass there in Timeless. When I do that trick I usually use it more like a drum roll but we all have our different styles. On a technical DJ note, what you may want to try with those to tracks is a quick changeover rather than keep both in at those levels because you have Timeless comming in at an incompatible key. You would get a more uplifting effect on a dancefloor if you just did a complete bass swap. This would work really well as Timeless just goes up one or two notes. I tell you a mix you should try if you have the record. David Forbes - Sympatico into Timeless. Those records are in the same key and thus you avoid the key class between the two in the sample. I usually start Timeless just as the breakdown on Sympatico finishes. You can leave both running for ages. Try it if you can and tell me what you think. Cheers Nem

thanks for the feedback
I usually use kill switches with timeless because that's just such an energetic track rightaway, but in this particular mix I wanted to mix using this "beat-cancel" stuff which I like in hardtrance (dumonde use it often too). As for that record I don't have (will check it though), but as for harmonic mixing is concerned, I have no musical background, and I confess that I know nothing about key clashes
I think harmonic mixing will be my next step hehe
Cheers!

quote:

Originally posted by tubby it's all basic physics. Sound is a wave form. when you have two waves sitting over eachother, if the peaks on both waves line up, the result is a bigger wave than either. If the peak on one wave lines up with a trough on the other, you end up with a flat total sound. So if your beatmatching is absolutely dead on the result is a flat bass. A tiny touch will stop this, and normally you'll notice the bass come back by itself in a couple of bars, as beatmatching isn't likely to be that precise. Not sure of the exact numbers, but i think the wavelength of the base is something like 2 milliseconds, so there's not much in it. EQ's can have the same effect, so the two waves are rarely the same size, so cannot cancel eachother out as perfectly

well as I understand it when two waves combine they make one singular strongly represented tone. However in this effect both waves are lost, which I have no idea why it would.

There is the possibility that since both waves amplify the level it could be under continuous clipping. but I have mixed together as the rush comes and time of our lives and got the bass to disappear so I think I will use those and fool around in a auditory laboratory. should be fun, I'll post updates and questions.

Well there is your answer... As the rush comes is a dodgy track and needs to be thrown on the fire. j/k.. sort of.

Cheers
Nem

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