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hardware vs. software

Excuse the ingnorance, I realize this forum isn't very n00b freindly (that is I've spent the whole morning pouring over the Production Studio threads and it only serves to give me more questions!)
When you refer to software and hardware synths... I assume that software would be sounds created from a computer sound card as opposed to an actual (external) snythesizer.
What are plugins? and do they work with specific software editors or specific sound cards?

Off topic... what are the main things that you guys all use in your trance music productions.

My guess would be : Syths (obviously, but brand would be cool to know), 303, sequencer program, effects processor. What else do you guys use?

the forum is noob friendly we (at least I) just don't like answering the same questions 10 times a day.
A hardware synth is a dedicated device for making sounds. You have real-time control and buttons & sliders to tweak. The sound processing is in the synth and comes out of the outputs mostly on the back panel. A software synth is a synthesizer running on software (d'uh) and you tweak the functions on your screen. All sound processing is in your soundcard so the sound comes out of the soundcard. Plugins you use with the sequencer (like cubase, logic). These are mostly softsynth or effect plugins

do you use both? Plugins produce effects that a rack module would otherwise produce for hardware synths?

Thanks Dez

Yes, you use both. Plugins would be something like a reverb unit or a compressor. In software sequencer, you create fx racks like you would with hardware, but in software, you get to create your own rack makeup (assuming you have the programs).

Main things to use in trance production.

Sequencer (fruity, reason, Cubase, Logic, Sonar, etc)
Sampler/Drum Machine (halion, mach 5, battery, LM4, Redrum, etc)
Synths (Pro-53, Virus, Supernova, Atmosphere) heaps to mention
Lots of plugins and fx.

(wish I had a tb-303)

Re: hardware vs. software

quote:

My guess would be : Syths (obviously, but brand would be cool to know), 303, sequencer program, effects processor. What else do you guys use?

A 303 actually is a synth developped for basslines. You can get some crazy stuff out of it and with distortion on it you can make some mean acid.

So there are synths, efx, sequencers,
don't forget a mixer also, otherwise you can't connect all your hardware synths.
To make the computer send midi data you might also need a midi patchbay, otherwise things will become very cluttered if you have a lot of stuff around + your timing gets messed up.
hope this isnt getting too complicated

so far so good..

I'm following you so far.

Synth for production of actual patches/sounds
Sampler/Drum machine for rythm parts (do some drum machines have samplers?)
Sequencer (probably software is the best way to go)- laying down different channels or tracks to combine the whole.
Effects processor - is this done through the sequencer? I hear a lot about plugins. I imagine that plugins are the effects themselves (reverb, flange, etc.)

I don't want to get into a "whats better" thread, but where should I go from here:
I have a KORG Trinity (it'll do for now), Audio-M 7.1 soundcard, nice PC, and a basic basic MIDI interface /sequencer prog.

You can try Cubase SX. It's not the easiest to understand but its easier than the older versions. Using this will allow you to keep using your trinity along with software synths and fx, whereas programs like fruity loops and reason will not let you use it.

And yes, effects are done through the sequencer. VST hosts will allow you to run a plugin inside the program so that you can stream audio through it.

VST ?

okay Cubase is good then because it will let me use everything whereas FL wont take plugins?

What is a VST ?

Fruity Loops will take plugins.
Cubase will take plugins
Reason will not take plugins.

Cubase will take hardware
Fruity loops and reason will not take hardware.

Cubase is not the only option though. There is also Sonar which is quite popular and older versions of logic (up to version 5.x)

If you are running a mac, then you can run logic version anything or digital performer.


VST is virtual studio technology. It is a type of plugin. The three main types of plugins are VST, DX and TDM. Most sequencers will accept VST and DX while only some of the more pro ones will accept TDM (like pro-tools).

When people refer to VST, they are usually refering to a plugin. When people refer to a VSTi, they are refering to a VST instrument (software synthesizer or sampler). The same goes with DX and DXi. I would not worry about TDM at the moment as they tend to be CPU munchers and require DSP cards. (is that enough 3 letter thingies for you?) Have I confused you more? Good, then my job here is done.

hahaha Cheggy u rock...actually you're a good teacher! Thanks for that! Obviously though you lead me to ask these:

How many VST plugins are there? Why dont sequencer progs like Cubase, etc come with them? Are VST's free online or is a marketing ploy to make you buy certain makes? (ie. do Cubase VST's only work in Cubase, etc)

What is different about VST and DX ? I mean, lets say I have Cubase and I have sequenced 8 tracks and would like to add some flange to one track and maybe some reverse cymbal effects and such. Does VST and DX do the same thing? Are they applied through 3rd party modules?

Oh my...you HAVE made it worse! lol nah... I've just never used Cubase or Cakewalk etc...

quote:

Originally posted by Digital Aura hahaha Cheggy u rock...actually you're a good teacher! Thanks for that! Obviously though you lead me to ask these: How many VST plugins are there?

A LOT

quote:

Why dont sequencer progs like Cubase, etc come with them?

Because then you would have to pay more for the program.. Some plug-ins are rather expensive.. Cubase is a sequencing program and not a softsynth.

quote:

Are VST's free online or is a marketing ploy to make you buy certain makes? (ie. do Cubase VST's only work in Cubase, etc)

Certain are for free but of course for the best and most powerfull ones you'll have to pay
And vst's will not only work in cubase but also in logic etc..

quote:

What is different about VST and DX ? I mean, lets say I have Cubase and I have sequenced 8 tracks and would like to add some flange to one track and maybe some reverse cymbal effects and such.

This makes no sence, what do you mean?

quote:

Does VST and DX do the same thing? Are they applied through 3rd party modules?

?? They do the same thing but every plug-in will have its own pros and cons, like the hardware synths
?? 3th party modules ??

Oh my...you HAVE made it worse! lol nah... I've just never used Cubase or Cakewalk etc... [/QUOTE]

quote:

This makes no sence, what do you mean?

What I meant was, is a VST the same as a DX.
Third party modules I meant like Project5 etc. (which I guess is a softsynth complete with VSTs) but can be used with Sequencers like Cakewalk, etc.

If I make no sense, its because there's a lot Im trying to digest here. I want to buy a good sequencer and I'm not sure whats compatible with what nor do I totally understand what VSTs or DXs actually accomplish. Also, as you mention, the better (more expensive) sequencers come bundled with certain softsynths and VSTs - right?
Thx for your patience guyz.

VST is a protocol made by Steinberg, and means Virtual Studio Technology. The name pretty much says it. It allows you to implement effect and instrument plugins into programs that support VST technology.

Most actual plugins and instruments follow the VST2 protocol.

DX effects and instruments are practically the same, except they use the DirectX API from Microsoft. Usually, the sound quality is the same, but VST is a little bit more optimised (less cpu overhead) although lately DX plugins are starting to be pretty optimized.

Like Cheggy said, there are other protocols : TDM/HD, AS, RTAS, MAS and AU mainly

TDM : Time Domain Multiplexing. Made by Digidesign, makers of Protools. They need Digidesign Mix or Farm cards, which are cards with DSP's. Not so long ago, Digidesign changed to the HD systems (more powerful DSP's), and even less long ago, they went Accel (yet more power). So if you see HD plugins/instruments, you need the appropriate hardware. Normally, HD and Accel systems still can run TDM plugins.

AS : AudioSuite, for protools. Offline process effects.

RTAS : Real Time AudioSuite, for protools also. Same as AS, but available realtime.

MAS : Motu Audio System. Made by Motu. Obviously, they work under Motu software, of which Digital Performer is the most famous.

AU : Audio Unit. By apple/emagic. Kind of an extra move to show that, after the buy over of emagic by apple, that they wanted to separate completely from Steinberg (biggest competitor), by making an own format. Logic for Mac doesn't support VST natively anymore.

Now, if the programmers did their job well, the sound results will be exactly the same. There could be small differences in cpu use, but with good programming they should be kept to a minimum.

So, what protocol to use. Well, VST is probably the most spread out protocol. Cubase PC/Mac obviously supports it, several other softs like Fruity and Orion support it, Sonar 3 supports it too. On Mac, AU is getting pretty big, as Logic is the dominating sequencer. MAS is slowly disappearing. Directx is not on Mac. VST is.

Protools should be considered as a class appart.

FXpansion is pretty famous for it's "wrappers". It's kind of a real time convertor proggie for protocols. They have DX to VST (and vice versa), for mac they got VST to AU, and their latest addition is VST to RTAS (finally VST plugins/instruments in Protools).

Reason and Project5 should be considered as closed systems on their own. They don't accept extra stuff. BUT, Propellerheads made a routing protocol called Rewire, which is getting pretty popular (even Protools accepts it in it's latest versions). It allows you to use the sound generators and effects (who'd want to) of Reason in other programs, like sequencers. So ultimately, with use of an "external" sequencer, it becomes an open system (as that sequencer can record audio, accept 3d party plugins, etc...).

Project 5 is pretty similar, but keep in mind it's made by cakewalk, who makes Sonar also. It's obvious that Project 5 will work best in conjunction with Sonar.

So, what to take?

If you work on PC, the two big boys are Cubase and Sonar. They both accept VST and DX. It comes down to personal preference, try using a demo for some time to see what program you like best. Be aware that, while not being complete crap, the plugins and instruments given with Cubase are pretty weak. Sonar has a better reputation here (as they licensed stuff from Sonitus and Lexicon).

Mac : well, Cubase or Logic mainly. Logic is the most powerful, the most difficult to learn also. Be aware you'll need a wrapper to use VST on Logic. Logic also has some pretty solid integrated plugins. They also work with Digidesign. You can buy a package which lets you use Logic as a frontend for TDM or HD hardware.

Like I said, take Protools as a system apart. Protools LE works with an Mbox or Digi001/002, but can mainly profit only from AS and RTAS plugins, except if you use the new wrapper (not included). Pro studio's will usually go for TDM or HD systems. Very expensive, and a pretty closed system.

Of course there are alternatives. For example, Samplitude is gaining more and more support now it has decent sequencing functions. You got Traktion too, which is a cheap VST capable sequencer. Of course Fruity and Orion accept VST's also, but their sequencing will never be as powerful as dedicated sequencers like Cubase or Logic.

whoa...nicely done

Thanx Thy... that was a great read! Basically I get it... All those 3 letter thingies are propietary forms of effects/softsynths.

quote:

Project5 should be considered as closed systems on their own. They don't accept extra stuff.

Project5 is VST right? or is it a combination of everything? It won't accept other VSTs?
If I have Project5 do I still need Cubase or Cakewalk??

Well no, it's not really a VST. If you should compare it to anything, it would be to Reason. A program which contains a basic sequencer, some sound generators, and some effects.

So with Project5 alone, you can make tunes...

But those two programs are closed, in the way that you have to do with what was included in them originally. For example, in Reason, you can't record audio directly, so if you would want vocals in your tunes, you'd have to find another way. Ultimately it's possible, but it slows down your work a lot. I don't remember what's included with Project5, but I think audio recordings are not possible too.

Now, as I said, complete tunes can be made, but should you decide you wanted a new effect, or a new synth, you can't add it to those programs. Hence, they are closed.

So, you'd need to connect it to a more versatile sequencer (� la cubase/sonar/logic), which can accept 3d party instruments and effects.

do I dare ask?

well...then u force me to ask the age old question...

which is better...I mean in the long run. Considering that I don't mind a learning curve if it means I get something versatile and well rounded that can accomodate anything I throw at it. Is Cubase better than Cakewalk? I'm on PC and I want to make sure that it can grow with me ... I dont want to be stuck with limited closed modules.
Weighing all the pros and cons which comes out ahead?

Oh cmon! Ive heard the PC vs. MAC argument and I know that all things considered the MAC comes out ahead, so you guys can do the same for the CUBASE vs. CAKEWALK thing for me here.

wow great thread

*continues mental notetaking*

mental note taking??

ahha screw that I've been makin a friggin list in wordpad that I keep on my DESKTOP ... it keeps gettin edited and changed but hopefully someone will let us know about PROJECT5 and the Cakewalk/Cubase controversy.

Re: do I dare ask?

quote:

Originally posted by Digital Aura well...then u force me to ask the age old question... which is better...I mean in the long run.

Well, frankly, if it's an old age question, it means it still hasn't been answered decently, and probably with a good reason.

The point is, everyone has his own preference.

I know people that absolutely love Cubase, I know people that hate it and prefer Logic over it, I know people that don't want to come near a computer for music making.

It all depends on what you want to do and on your workflow.

Just keep in mind, full fledged sequencers like Cubase/Logic were originally conceived to work with external instruments (and audio). Of course software plugins and instruments have changed that a little bit, but when you look closely, using a software or hardware effect/instrument doesn't really change your workflow completely (you need a couple more cables, that's all, you still use an effect on an insert or aux, wether it's software or hardware).

I think the question you should really ask yourself is : what do I really need.
If you are happy with the instruments/effects given with the program, go with it by all means. Full sequencers come with powerful features, but instruments and effectwise, in fact they leave you with the choice. You decide which effects/instruments you'll connect to it. And once you learned to work with the sequencer, you can't really say it works slower or faster than a full software studio like Reason or Project 5.

So, in conclusion, if we look at it (in a full legal way), going the sequencer package route will cost more as you'll need to get not only the sequencer, but also extra instruments and effects (software or hardware, you choose), but it's way more versatile. You choose what you'll use, and no one can force to use this or that set.

wow nice info

Dj Thy for president!

i don't bevleieve it matters... after all, there ARE software versions of hardware synths <-- pro 53, for example, is a ridiculously useful tool in music making and it's based off an old hardware synth

many look down at computer/software production when really, i think it's just as good as hardware

either way, both can be produce similar results if used properly

Pro53 is a almost limitless. Amen.

Personally bro, at your level you should think about getting something simple and versitile. You should go and buy a pro sequencer for just starting out. They get pricey after all the VSTs you buy. As for that, dont get too hung up on the whole synth protocol thing, just stick with VST, great cpu usage and awesome sound quality, period. Buy yourself a copy of FLStudio 4, very very easy to learn on, extremely versitile, nice sound quality. Or there is reason, but learning to produce and having to rewire and all that crap is pointless IMO. But reason is still very good if you learn to use its softsynths. Take Endre and MK-S for example, they use reason i think, awesome stuff, they most likely sample like a mother****** though. Once you are comforatable making music and start to get better and feel you have learn all you can from Fruity or Reason, get yourself something better like Cubase or Logic. That is if you still like to produce right. Stick with it though.

Also dont download the programs, they are actually worth the money, plus you get free udpates and all that.

good points

excellent points UXUD.

and..

quote:

wow nice info DJ Thy for President!

Thx man...you're right...its not what is better, but rather what's better for me.
Project5 though won't give me a sequencer and I'll still end up needing that, so I'm better off getting SONAR3 Producer and playing with the VST, effects, and synths that come with it...its more pricey but will offer me everything to begin.

RIGHT?

quote:

Also dont download the programs, they are actually worth the money

I hate to admit it, but its true...I downloaded cakewalk several years ago and became so frustrated because I had no manual or support. I totally agree with you there.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Thy Well no, it's not really a VST. If you should compare it to anything, it would be to Reason. A program which contains a basic sequencer, some sound generators, and some effects. But those two programs are closed, in the way that you have to do with what was included in them originally. Now, as I said, complete tunes can be made, but should you decide you wanted a new effect, or a new synth, you can't add it to those programs. Hence, they are closed.

Not true. Project5 accepts VST instruments. Not sure about DX but I know it takes VST

Ah, nice, the last version I checked didn't. Well, better for them then.

Still my conclusion stands. Either you go with a simple package that gets you started, or you choose to go on a more powerfull package, where you decide what stuff you will add, to your liking.

And remember, there is no wrong or right in the music business, as long as the result sounds good, it doesn't matter if you use the state of the art technology, or still a lousy recorder. It's all about the result.

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