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-- Mixing, not our Job??
Mixing, not our Job??
I go to the SAE Audio college, you know the one.
Well today I was talking to my tutor about not being able to get that 'Pro' sound. He told me that alot of work is done by the 'Mixing' Engineer, no, not the MASTERING engineer, thats something different all together.
Im on about the thinks like tweeking that snare till it sounds right, putting that sound in its own frequencie range. He told me that most of that is taken care of by the mixing engineer, and this goes for any kind of music.
Now this pissed me of alot, as i believe this is where a track comes alive. And now Im getting told, that the artist doesnt really do/needs to do all stuff, and STILL get credit because they wrote it.
Which is fair enough, write a track, get all credit and money.
But for me I want to as much as my own art as possible.
Im not happy with drawing a picture, sending it of to be colored. Now I can understand the Mastering thing is different and we get credit for using sounds we made from something we didnt, I can handle that.
Now my Question is, What artists Mix their own music?
I know all of you guys and myself included struggle over this for the reason that we consider this something that is a part of writing the music. Ive heard that Timo Mass once phoned up a his mixing engineer to get a 'Whoom sound'.......
(Im not gonna even explain what I feel for that)
My second question also is.......WHY?
If this is the case why bother mixing ourselfs if we will get credit either way?
We might as well get a pro mixer to do it all for us, hey it will probally sound better and we will still get our name on the cover.
This has really put me off the whole industry of dance music.
Can someone please enlighten me, I honestly feel shit.
Anyone know anymore infomation on this world, and artists who mix their own stuff as much as possible?
I know you guys do your own mixing.
Lol
i did the degree at SAE (now nicknamed school af anal engineering by myself and a few others
Had major issues with their methods and views on certain things......
You are paying enough for their course- if you want to know something then get them to teach you it
it is very true tho (not so much in electronic music) that you record to get a clean sound, then you tweak it and get that 'pro sound' you speak of in mixdown.. Quite often you will find seperate engineers for this yes...
But in the electronic music domain, the creative process is different, and the finished sounds can help the direction of the creative process.....
Honestly though, this is what has drawn me into trance and EDM...the fact that artists can engage themselves in every facet of the songs creation AND production....from start to finish.
Lets face it...its more rewarding cuz not all facets are "fun"...that sacrifice gives us the sense of accomplishment. Without that work, your only making a minor contribution to the tune.
Good thread Damie.
I believe Armin doesn't use any engineers...it's something he's quite proud of.
YES, cos dry dance music is something not to be proud of
heheh
Well people here go on about trying to master but I've stopped bothering trying to tell people that its more important to get it mixed right in the first place. In EDM, its a lot easier to just do everything yourself. For Vocalists and stuff, its probably a lot harder to mix everything as a pro would have a much better idea.
For good mixing, just make sure all the levels are right and that every channel has its home and you should be right. EQ is very important to make sure everything is clear, and so is the amp release at times on your lead to make sure that its strong and filling, but that it leaves space for other stuff.
what about effects (eg reverb on leads) cheggy??
We all know how shit a lead sounds dry
and what exactly is the right sounding mix thats ready for a mixdown
surely artists dont send in Dry mixes and get signed
Your mixed song should sound very close to the mastered version. Some of the songs sent to mastering are sent there only for increasing the overall level of the piece, because they don't need anything more. Your mixed song should sound perfect and then it's really easy to master. I mixed and mastered this song in my bedroom, for example.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Damie Mckeown what about effects (eg reverb on leads) cheggy?? We all know how shit a lead sounds dry and what exactly is the right sounding mix thats ready for a mixdown surely artists dont send in Dry mixes and get signed |
Thanks Cheggy
Yeah, Ive never had a problem with the Mastering process, Im cool with it.
I can also understand how pop music and rock bands are required 'Mix' Engineering, because they cant be expected to know how to make it sound good in a mix too.
Its just for me, Effects is kinda what makes Dance music work Overall, and alot of songs are written on a backbone of delay effects, or a bassline with distortion.
Things you would need to do yourself to make it work.
I cant imagine artists sending in Dry versions of songs.
I really think Dance music is the odd one out when it comes to the mixer engineer 'Creating the overall mix'
And the engineer I spoke to doesnt know what the fuck hes talking about
Generally speaking, with other styles of music, the instruments are meant to sound natural and all within a specific space. With dance music, and in particular trance, the music is generally synthetic and therefore doesn't have to sound a particular way (if you wanted to eq the fuck out of a synth it won't sound unnatural because it wasn't natural in the first place). With styles such as rock or jazz the instruments need to sound more natural (there are obvious exceptions)and therefore can be more difficult to achieve the space required within the mix by panning, effects and eqing and still keep the instruments natural characteristics.
Hmm, having read this back to myself I think I could have explained this better (but as I'm at work I think this better do!!!!)
What I want to know is, what is count as our jobs (and this is for electronic music here, not 'band's' who need a different approach)
First there is the 'Dry' sound, probally the basses of where we start arranging a track.
When done, IS THIS READY FOR pro MIXING?
or do we then add effects, delay etc, to the main things we want then...
IS IT READY FOR pro MIXING?
or do we carry on and eq parts, put them in their own range, get the levels right etc etc.
THEN IS IT READY FOR.......MIXi......TWEEKING?
because Im sure since alot of dance music only WORKS based on given effects, that very little is done in difference to the Final product.
Just like whats been said here
Persnaly, I wanna notice Very SMALL differences in the final, OKAY I SWEAR I NEED A SECOND OPINON FROM ANOTHER TUTOR
Even the smallest, most minimalistic instrument that's placed into a mix should be "tweaked" the fuck out. I swear, I must have spent the last three days getting my kick & percusion right. Eq'ing even the slightest fault I could find with it. But it took three days coz I'm shit like that. 
OK Damie,
I see the confusion, and I would suggest that you read different articles on how to mix. But here are a few pointers:
1. When making your sounds, be that kick or a bass or pads make sure that they're sounding the way you really want it. Don't wait for the mixing stage to 'better' your sounds. It's extremely hard to fix sounds in the mix.
2. Trance and dance as a genre are different than other types of music. Effects such as reverb, delay, chorus, phaser and so on are part of your sounds. Therefore, incorporate the effects when producing the sounds for your song.
3. Then use the sound to produce groove, melodies, atmospheric pads and so on. Basically, work on the feel and arrangement of the song.
4. After you're finished with the song and all sounds good, you rest your ears for couple of days. After that you start mixing. That incorporates:
-adjusting the levels of individual instruments
-panning the instruments
-adding more space to specific instruments by applying additional reverb
-compressing
-equalizing
-automating the mix
5. When done mixing rest your ears for couple of days
6. Then master
There you go, hope it helps a little bit.
Cheers
Deep Blue (128kbps stream)
Yeah, thats kinda what I thought.
Music recorded by and for bands needs a different approach, Im sure most dance/trance music is mixed by its artists.
Thats just a whole part of what this genre is about
Having been hired as a recording engineer in a couple of studios, I can give you a "professional opinion" I guess...
A couple of artists who do their own mixes, off the top of my head:
Lange
BT (kicks everyone else out of the studio then does his thing)
Prince (he bitches about the way he mixed 1999 
)
Their mixes are what went to vinyl.
Your tutor might be being a little old-fashioned. You're not a singer or a guitarist in a rock group, you're a sound designer and that's your art.
That being said, having assistant engineers there as extra sets of ears (each with their own perspective) makes a huge difference. Or take your individual tracks to someone who's got a zillion dollar studio and knows it backwards and forwards; you'd be surprised what you get.
I have no problem with using an engineer. It like cinema: it's the directors vision but the cameramen are for getting the shots to look right. Mixing Engineers allow the artist to complete his vision without him /her having to spend 12 hours trying to figure out why the low end is still muddy. Plus 90% of artists (at least with this kind of music) work with the engineers... its not like they "send it off to get a facelift" from the mixing engineers (that IS what they do with mastering engineers though).
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Naeon I have no problem with using an engineer. It like cinema: it's the directors vision but the cameramen are for getting the shots to look right. Mixing Engineers allow the artist to complete his vision without him /her having to spend 12 hours trying to figure out why the low end is still muddy. Plus 90% of artists (at least with this kind of music) work with the engineers... its not like they "send it off to get a facelift" from the mixing engineers (that IS what they do with mastering engineers though). |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Naeon Mixing Engineers allow the artist to complete his vision without him /her having to spend 12 hours trying to figure out why the low end is still muddy. |
It's tough. I think with experience you start to figure out which instrument is 'safe' to put into a mix, that won't effect everything else. For instance, too many low frequencies, can muddy things out, and too many highs, can clutter up your song, and hurt your ears. 
Of course that's common sense, but I know from my countless hours of experience, that I have made that mistake, and wondered why my mixes sounded like crap.
Of course, I still need, TONS of improvement, and would like to get better 'mixing' plugins, and programs. That will come in time.
Great thread by the way! Great read!
I used to dream about doing it all myself. But I've found that most really successful artists know how to surround themselves with a team of talented professionals. That would include mixing engineers.
I would find the sounds that are as close to what you want as possible. Even do some EQing, etc... Then let a talented pro mixing engineer take it to the next level.
BTW I love Prince's 1999. It's real rough and organic. The Oberheim polysynth and the Linn LM-1 machine. What a combo!
markus schulz does it all himself... and most artist that do infact do it all themself pride themself in the fact that they do all aspects of the track. and personally i think the more people you involed the more opions your gonna end up with and the more un-orginal the track will sound as its now not just your track but someone else opion on how its usppose tos ound however this is not allways a bad thing just is when you dont want other people fucking up your shit.... then again maybe thats why i cant produce.... or maybe its kus i dont know what anyhting means i just tweak it till i like how it sounds...... ohh welll honestly tho why pay more people to do something you can do so quit being LAZY and just figure it out its all rather logical on how to make it sound good as far as mastering i mean the only thing i was ever told was do not go over 0db.... but to answer the q. mixing would be your job if you want it to be along with being a sound engineer and everything else... anyhow just get high and fuck with it till it sounds right i guess *shrugs
You make a good point. I'm sure this style of music is much more hands-on. Plus, the equipment available to us is now of such pro quality that many times we can forgo the SSL room and still get really good mixes.
Maybe if I was producing I'd acquire enough experience to mix it myself, and at the same time have another professional set of ears standing by while I did it - as someone to bounce ideas off and to get a second opinion.
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