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What is one Israeli life worth?

What is one Israeli life worth?

Exactly 400 Palestinians, 23 Lebanese, and 12 Arab lives.

Proof:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...st_prisoners_dc

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3426503.stm

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Sad, I always believe one should never negotiate with such terrorist, what are your views?
Two of the Lebanese to be released are high-ranking terrorists.

you forget that this jew is going to take over the world

I am frankly astounded that Israel would do this, beats me as to why, is the businessman that significant. The three dead soldiers bodies are significant to the family but to release 400 seems a bit out there. Frankly Hezbollah comes out stronger in this exchange without a doubt.

does seem a bit absurd.

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan I am frankly astounded that Israel would do this, beats me as to why, is the businessman that significant. The three dead soldiers bodies are significant to the family but to release 400 seems a bit out there. Frankly Hezbollah comes out stronger in this exchange without a doubt.

Heh, seems like that israeli negotiator wasn't really a one that can strike a hard bargain. Well, absurd things happen all the time. But I guess croatia has even worse negotiators. Slovenia once demanded 3/4 of a certain bay while Croatia refused to give any. After the negotiations, the deal was struck at 4/5 of the area.

Could also be seen as a gesture of good faith, if you're not cynical.

i think it is just what it says.

1 israeli life is worth 400 palestinian.

Maybe it's because there are 400 times more palestinians rotting in israeli jails?

Yoepus it's because attitudes like that that anti-semitism is on the rise in europe.

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Originally posted by borron Yoepus it's because attitudes like that that anti-semitism is on the rise in europe.

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Originally posted by borron ...anti-semitism is on the rise in europe.

Ah, so you admit it! Seems to me that you were previously in the camp of "there's no such thing as anti-semitism." Glad to see you're coming around.

Thtats realy not the first time Isreal gives so much prisoners for it's captured soldiers...even if they are dead. It has to do EVERYTHING to bring all of its soldiers back to their famelis.

It IS a very very big price to pay, but i do respect it, those famalies have suffred enough. knowlange , even in this tragic case, is better than assumptions and guesses about the fate of their sons.

quote:

Originally posted by borron Maybe it's because there are 400 times more palestinians rotting in israeli jails? Yoepus it's because attitudes like that that anti-semitism is on the rise in europe.

Well atleast you have the decency to admit it unlike many of the free speech pundits in Europe, if only more could make their feelings fully known. The funny thing is that how many Jews in Europe who would suffer from anti-semitism has any direct connection to Israel borron or do they just go about their daily lives like me and you

i would rather say that there is no big israel support in europe then to say that there is anti semitism, and as barron said, it's because of attitudes like that many europeans are anti israel...

europe is as much (less) anti semitists as US are anti muslims...

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Originally posted by St_Andrew i would rather say that there is no big israel support in europe then to say that there is anti semitism, and as barron said, it's because of attitudes like that many europeans are anti israel... europe is as much (less) anti semitists as US are anti muslims...

So you're trying to tell me Israel should refuse to conduct the exchange under these terms, right?


and as for the US being anti-muslims, I would say they are less anti-semites than Europe, afterall, the cases where Americans burn down mosques, vandalize muslim graves, etc, are almost non-existant in the US.

Let's wait a minute here.

Diginut, you can use the search button above, you will never find any comment from me saying that. Anti-semitism IS on the rise in europe, that's a well known fact. It is especially high in France, one of the most developed countries. Anyone who says the contrary is clearly blindfolded - it's all over the media here. In fact, i think that after the arabs, it's the europeans who hate the jews more than any other people on earth; our history proves that.
However, i think the majority of the europeans doesn't like jews because Israel's actions and ONLY because of that. Just like me. If Israel was a decent, peace respecting country, everybody would get along with it. I don't hate jews, i just hate israel. It's very different (i sure love those jewish girls in fashion tv ).

Now to Yoepus. You must be kidding with me. In the US anti-muslim is SO VERY MUCH high than anti-semitism in europe. Open your eyes for god's sake. Almost all countries on US's "terrorist list" are arab countries; muslim books and whoever requisits them from libraries can be surveilled by the FBI (patriot act); muslim citizens are in a "special" FBI database; it's so much difficult for a muslim citizen to enter the US and i can't even imagine how a muslim must feel when he's walking down the street in NY.

BUT those cases you mentioned, sinagogues on fire, vandalized graves etc were most of them perpretated by arabs living in europe. Only a small percentage were made by neo-nazi groups.

I want to add something about your attitudes. If you search around this forum, you'll see that everybody with an israeli flag or who calls himself an israeli has an extremist position. I've never seen a moderated israeli around here, or even everyhere - i only hear about them in the media, such as guys from peace organizations or that guy who made the swedish pool of blood. Just put yourselves as a foreigner and look at your actions and words as a foreigner. You will see how extremist you all sound.

Maybe if i lived in Israel and had my mother/brother/whatever blown up by a terrorist i would think the same way as you and probably join the army to kill some palestinians. And if i was a palestinian and had mother/brother/etc killed or my house destroyed, for sure i would join the Hamas and kill some israelis.

But as someone who isn't envolved in this war directly i can have a much better view than anyone who's involved, because i can see what both sides do and how it affects each other, then taking a unbiased (unbiased as in i'm not either jew or arab or know anyone who fits those categories) conclusion. The media here is very neutral to this conflict, simply reporting what happens, although sometimes you can see a small inclination towards both sides. And in my conclusion i see the israelis as the bullies, occupiers, assassins,... you name it

quote:

Originally posted by borron I want to add something about your attitudes. If you search around this forum, you'll see that everybody with an israeli flag or who calls himself an israeli has an extremist position. I've never seen a moderated israeli around here, or even everyhere - i only hear about them in the media, such as guys from peace organizations or that guy who made the swedish pool of blood. Just put yourselves as a foreigner and look at your actions and words as a foreigner. You will see how extremist you all sound. Maybe if i lived in Israel and had my mother/brother/whatever blown up by a terrorist i would think the same way as you and probably join the army to kill some palestinians. And if i was a palestinian and had mother/brother/etc killed or my house destroyed, for sure i would join the Hamas and kill some israelis. But as someone who isn't envolved in this war directly i can have a much better view than anyone who's involved, because i can see what both sides do and how it affects each other, then taking a unbiased (unbiased as in i'm not either jew or arab or know anyone who fits those categories) conclusion. The media here is very neutral to this conflict, simply reporting what happens, although sometimes you can see a small inclination towards both sides. And in my conclusion i see the israelis as the bullies, occupiers, assassins,... you name it

Now that's unfair. I have an equally unbiased opinion of the middle east and much of what you say, I hold similar perceptions for most palestinian supporters that frequent here. To characterize the pro-Israelis as "extremists" simply because they obviously do not adopt the "moderate" viewpoint, aka your viewpoint (that they are assassins, occupiers, and assassins ), is a simple strawman. As another "unbiased moderate" I do not hold that position at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus and as for the US being anti-muslims, I would say they are less anti-semites than Europe, afterall, the cases where Americans burn down mosques, vandalize muslim graves, etc, are almost non-existant in the US.

Click Me

quote:

Originally posted by borron Now to Yoepus. You must be kidding with me. In the US anti-muslim is SO VERY MUCH high than anti-semitism in europe. Open your eyes for god's sake. Almost all countries on US's "terrorist list" are arab countries; muslim books and whoever requisits them from libraries can be surveilled by the FBI (patriot act); muslim citizens are in a "special" FBI database; it's so much difficult for a muslim citizen to enter the US and i can't even imagine how a muslim must feel when he's walking down the street in NY.

Sorry, but racial profiling <> racism, and I'm hesitant to even call it profiling. Monitoring hate-filled books and people with potential ties to terrorist organizations is a necessity in the wake of 9/11. It's not anti-muslim, it's anti-terrorist. It may be taken to an extreme in the USA, but guess what, it's working.

To extrapolate from that and say that the USA views all Muslims/Arabs as terrorists is just plain wrong. It has everything to do with place of origin and nothing to do with culture or religion. They have to have some form of security, and if they know that some particular country has huge terror cells, they have to be very careful who they let in from that country.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Sorry, but racial profiling <> racism, and I'm hesitant to even call it profiling. Monitoring hate-filled books and people with potential ties to terrorist organizations is a necessity in the wake of 9/11. It's not anti-muslim, it's anti-terrorist. It may be taken to an extreme in the USA, but guess what, it's working. To extrapolate from that and say that the USA views all Muslims/Arabs as terrorists is just plain wrong. It has everything to do with place of origin and nothing to do with culture or religion. They have to have some form of security, and if they know that some particular country has huge terror cells, they have to be very careful who they let in from that country.

that's about the same with europeans, but the other way around (acordning to some polls israel was rated nr one world threat by europeans), right or wrong, doesn't really mater... we just think different. besides what many people are saying is anti semitism is more like disagreements with israel's policies, the word is highly misused imo.

what i would call pure anti semitism, is not an especially jew problem, i think it's more like an overall problem with unsuccessful integration policies. at least that is the case here, the ones that really hate jews, also hate muslims, africans etc.

quote:

Originally posted by borron However, i think the majority of the europeans doesn't like jews because Israel's actions and ONLY because of that. Just like me. If Israel was a decent, peace respecting country, everybody would get along with it. I don't hate jews, i just hate israel. It's very different (i sure love those jewish girls in fashion tv ).

Hm...Let's see. I believe the average European is able to tell the difference between Jews and Israelis. It doesn't take that much intelligence, does it. And yet, as just proven here, it happens again and again that one is confused with the other. It doesn't happen with Christians, it doesn't happen with Muslims (except for minor attacks by simpleminded ignorants as seen in the US shortly after sept. 11) but when Israel is discussed the majority of people wont even try to seperate.

This leaves three options:

they are indeed dumb.
they are lazy.
they DO know the difference but still mix, deliberately.

What made you mix the two, borron?

Do you also realize how simple your argumentation is when you justify HATRED by not agreeing with a country's policy? I don't hate any country or peoples on this planet, actually. Another oversimplified "mistake" that looks more like purpose or subconscious ressentiments than irrational thinking.

Please think about that.

Well, first of all you have to keep in mind that english is not my native language, and sometimes i have difficulties in expressing myself.
Yes, i made that mistake on the phrase but i left it intentionally, maybe thinking that noone would notice (i fit the lazy category).

You made your point clearly, but i think you are a bit self-centered or maybe you did ignore a part of my comments concentrating on that mistake. Also you are reducing my personality to three options, that's an insult in my opinion.

As i said, i HATE israel. I have no subconscious ressentments against it, it's not like a israeli raped me in my childhood.
Why do i hate it? I just feel sad by the things i see in tv everyday. I feel sad when i see palestinian houses being destroyed, kids against tanks, mothers crying... Believe me, i feel sad the same way when they pass images of a restaurant in the middle of a israeli city with all those good looking, good dressing people dead or crippled... but do your maths, what happens more often and in what situation there are more people affected?

I don't hate any specific people on earth, in fact i feel attracted by different cultures, and when i finish my graduation i will probably go to a country with a totally different culture (Brazil, Japan, India...). But yes, i hate some countries. Maybe it was more right to call them "governments of specific countries", but as i said before, i'm lazy.


And about racial profiling being different from racism, then why doesn't the US do that to the chinese? Or indians? Or to the hispanic? Is there any evidence that Islam preaches suicide attacks more than any other religion? Have you read the Coran? I admit i haven't read it, but reading some passages it sounds just like the bible, just a different story.

And about some countries having huge terrorist cells, i don't think you are versed enough to talk of that. Neither do I.

quote:

Originally posted by borron And about racial profiling being different from racism, then why doesn't the US do that to the chinese? Or indians? Or to the hispanic? Is there any evidence that Islam preaches suicide attacks more than any other religion? Have you read the Coran? I admit i haven't read it, but reading some passages it sounds just like the bible, just a different story. And about some countries having huge terrorist cells, i don't think you are versed enough to talk of that. Neither do I.

The US doesn't racially profile. It categorially puts stricter guidelines on people originating for the middle east - I'm sure your government does similar.

Unlike some countries, espeically middle eastern ones, the US does not ask you what religion you are when you enter the country, therefore they have no way of knowing if you are muslim, christian, or jew, it discriminates based on origin, so my Iranian friend for instance has more trouble coming in than my German friends. Why? Because Iran supports terror, German doesn't...

This is not racist, and it is not racial profiling, they are "nationally" profiling, and that is the soverign right of every nation --- just like if you are a North Korean you can't get into the US!


p.s.

btw I a very typical moderate Israeli - the ppl you were refering that you believe are "moderate Israelis" fit into the far radical left in Israeli society. Although there is one or two Israeli-advocates here in traceaddict who I would say are more right-wing than me, I generally believe tranceaddict forums do a good job of repersenting the "moderate" views of each nation -- I belive most Palestinian-advocates here are moderate compared to all Palestinian-advocates, but I still view them as radical, just as with no doubt they view me as a radical.

I also believe your thoughts are probably a good summarization of most Portugese reasoning.

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Originally posted by Yoepus The US doesn't racially profile. It categorially puts stricter guidelines on people originating for the middle east - I'm sure your government does similar.

NO, it doesn't.

quote:

This is not racist, and it is not racial profiling, they are "nationally" profiling, and that is the soverign right of every nation --- just like if you are a North Korean you can't get into the US!

Now that is just plain stupid. As if north koreans had anything to pay for their regime actions. It's the same as blaming the american/israeli people for the actions of their stupid governments.

quote:

I also believe your thoughts are probably a good summarization of most Portugese reasoning.

I have no idea of what's the "balance of forces" here in Portugal, but maybe you are right.

quote:

Originally posted by borron Now that is just plain stupid. As if north koreans had anything to pay for their regime actions. It's the same as blaming the american/israeli people for the actions of their stupid governments.

Perhaps if we abolished passports, that would satisfy you?

Look, if the USA and other countries didn't "discriminate" based on country of origin, then they'd have to do a background check on EVERYONE that came into the country. Your logic is flawed in thinking that the Iranians (for example) are being treated negatively; rather, it is the other people from Canada and the UK and France and so on, that are being given the benefit of the doubt because their governments by themselves would prosecute international terrorists before they had a chance to escape the country.

In fact I think Canada got into a lot of trouble because terrorists were operating here and getting into the USA through here - and you know what? I didn't whine, I didn't say it's unfair, I said "You know what, we deserve it, our immigration and refugee policies are crap, there's no security at all." So get over it, man, the airports are fully entitled to run background checks at their discretion, and it's none of your business what their "criteria" is.

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