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No Words... Just Look

ATTENTION: NOT FOR WEAK STOMACKS!!!!

no words can be said here... and i dont wish to develop this post for an argument.
but i think it's important to see and have a taste of how the truth really looks like...



LINK

Have a crap modem! What is it?

im guessing its this http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=157422

fucking terrorists

Shame the Palestinian economy is shit then they might be able to afford camcorders, we might get to see what happens in places like Jenin, or we might get some footage of 10 ton bulldozers crushing peace protestors to death...(just for a balanced argument like)

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Originally posted by George Smiley Shame the Palestinian economy is shit then they might be able to afford camcorders, we might get to see what happens in places like Jenin, or we might get some footage of 10 ton bulldozers crushing peace protestors to death...(just for a balanced argument like)

i'm with you on the peace protectors on this one, but there's a bitty tiny difference between Jenin and the those photos.
Jenin was indeed a horroble chapter on the israeli-palestinian confrontation, but here's a reminder:
IDF entered jenin to do what arafat refused to do himself: destroy the terrorist explosive labs and hamas camps that were there (in the city, acting to release bombings as much as black hole releasing tracks...) when they came in THERE WAS A RESISTANCE. bombs and "molotov" bottles were thrown out of windows, and i even remember a 11 years' old child sent to death to set a bomb under an army viechle (not a tank... so i remember...)

the exploding buses and cafes all around the country contained victims who didnt held guns, didnt say anything, they were only civilians. i'm not saying that all the palestinian who died on those horroble 3 years of war between us are terrorist that deserved to die.
but there a difference between civilian victims in a fight and civilian victims 20 miles from there who just wanted to get home from the grocery store.
and by killing them and evolving them in is doing nothing but extending the conflict. it's surly dont serves the palestinian goals...
and that's the bottom line in this story. that the poor palestinians dont get to navigate their foture. they are right when they say that israel soult get out of the west bank and the gaza strip. but we all know that this will only give hamas the chance to release more bombings in israel. becouse hamas are the ones to say the last word (and not arafat) and hamas controls the streets. and hamas is not about freeing the occupied lands. hamas is about killing all the jews between the jordan river and the sea and we all know that.

Dont get me wrong, I in no way think suicide bombings against Israeli civilians are in anyway justified (altho I have no sympathy for those living in the settlements), I just think that when people get angry at terrorists as people in this post have done, you should first ask yourself why it is they feel the need to do this. When you answer that question, you can then begin to look for ways that would get them to stop. And in any given 'terrorist situation', the easiest way to get them to stop is to take away the reason Palestinians blow themselves up in the first place (altho there is a problem here with Islamic extremism, altho religious extremism exists on both the Arab and Israeli sides, but I think it is not a large proportion of either side)

^This is ridiculous... another perfectly reasonable way to stop terrorists is to just kill them all, but you don't see anybody suggesting that.

I hope other people are getting as tired of your inappropriate and insensitive comments as I am. Do you honestly think that the Palestinians' right to that land, even if we concede it is rightfully "theirs", overrides the Israelis' right to their lives?

Stop terrorism FIRST... deal later.

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Do you honestly think that the Palestinians' right to that land, even if we concede it is rightfully "theirs", overrides the Israelis' right to their lives?

No idea what you are trying to imply there mate

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Stop terrorism FIRST... deal later.

Just out of interest, under what conditions do you think this scenario would occur? (ie. what would make them stop the violence for deals to be made?)

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Originally posted by George Smiley Just out of interest, under what conditions do you think this scenario would occur? (ie. what would make them stop the violence for deals to be made?)

for example: stoping the propoganda over their schools and teling them the truth: terror have never achieved anything but to make things worse. their leader get their power out of the peoples misury and theirfor will never do anything to improve their lives.
you dont see any israelis saying "we should kill them all" becouse israel is a western country with democratic system having a debate over things.
it doesnt work that way over the palestinian. if the poeple got to choose what they want i'm sure there would have been peace a long time ago. but the leader dont give a shit and the streets are controled by gangs.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Just out of interest, under what conditions do you think this scenario would occur? (ie. what would make them stop the violence for deals to be made?)

Simple: get rid of Arafat. The terrorist groups are all his puppet groups anyway. If you get rid of Arafat, you pull the rug out from under this .

Reforms to the policies would also have to ensue, but I think that would happen naturally: changes to their education, withdrawal of rewards for "martyr" families, etc.

I don't vie for the possibility of someone worse being elected - it doesn't get any worse.

Edit: it does bear mentioning that Israel should also appoint someone who's actually qualified to negotiate, like Barak and Rabin were doing. The reason they put someone like Sharon in power was because they knew that negotiations would never succeed - IF Palestine were to rid itselves of extremists and terrorists, it might be worth appointing a more peaceful Israeli PM... or at least to delegate the peace negotiations to someone else, perhaps someone from the U.S.

I also really don't think we should be talking about this in this thread. Every time you post in one of these, you ignore the horror of the act being committed and turn it into some futile debate about how Israel is really responsible for the warlike situation. Can you not for once take a look at the situation and say "Hey, that's sick, regardless of whatever conditions they may live in?"

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it doesn't get any worse.

seems you're not fimiliar with the middle east... it can always get worse...

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Simple: get rid of Arafat. The terrorist groups are all his puppet groups anyway. If you get rid of Arafat, you pull the rug out from under this .

While I agree getting rid of Arafat would be a big help, I dont think he has as much control over terrorists as you think

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Reforms to the policies would also have to ensue, but I think that would happen naturally: changes to their education, withdrawal of rewards for "martyr" families, etc.

Yes I think alot of Palestinian education is quite anti-semitic which should be stopped

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The reason they put someone like Sharon in power was because they knew that negotiations would never succeed - IF Palestine were to rid itselves of extremists and terrorists, it might be worth appointing a more peaceful Israeli PM

Yea...look what you did to the last PM who tried for peace!!!

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I also really don't think we should be talking about this in this thread. Every time you post in one of these, you ignore the horror of the act being committed and turn it into some futile debate about how Israel is really responsible for the warlike situation. Can you not for once take a look at the situation and say "Hey, that's sick, regardless of whatever conditions they may live in?"

Yes I can quite easily say that these acts of terrorism are sick, and I have been quite clear several times in saying I think they are wrong and unjustified. You on the other hand, only seem to aknowledge that something is sick if the attrocity is being committed against Israelis...I have let you hear me tell you that suicide bombings are sick, now let me here you tell me that what Israel has done in the occupied territories is sick...or are you a bit one sided in your criticism?

Incitement has always been there in Palestinian society, since the Balfour Declaration. It may have added to the cause of the Intifada, but it is in no way the primary cause. I leave you with one quote:

"Do you really think that textbooks, mosque sermons, or the failings of the Palestinian Authority are a greater influence on a Palestinian child than the Israeli tank in his backyard?"

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Originally posted by George Smiley While I agree getting rid of Arafat would be a big help, I dont think he has as much control over terrorists as you think

Arafat's Links to Terrorism
DEBKAfile - Arafat-Saddam-Bin Laden Links Surface
Seized Orient House documents link Arafat to terrorism

There's a primer - I think google will turn up many more articles, if you look.

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Yes I think alot of Palestinian education is quite anti-semitic which should be stopped

Good, at least we agree on something.

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Yea...look what you did to the last PM who tried for peace!!!

When you say "we"... who do you mean, exactly, and which PM are you talking about?

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Yes I can quite easily say that these acts of terrorism are sick, and I have been quite clear several times in saying I think they are wrong and unjustified. You on the other hand, only seem to aknowledge that something is sick if the attrocity is being committed against Israelis...I have let you hear me tell you that suicide bombings are sick, now let me here you tell me that what Israel has done in the occupied territories is sick...or are you a bit one sided in your criticism?

Since you've been posting for a matter of days, I think it's out of place for you to comment on what I do or don't acknowledge. There have been numerous posts on the IDF and I agree that what many of these soldiers do is equally sick.

However - and one thing that is really important to point out - is that Israel also condemns the actions of these soldiers, rather than the Palestinians who cheer in the streets when another one of their people blows him/herself to bits. That is a shocking lack of respect for human life... both for the Israelis, AND for the Palestinians!

Arafat is like the overprotective parent who screams to the principal every time his kid comes home with a black eye, but hands him a cookie when he gets a call from the school saying that he just kicked another kid in the balls. You can't have it both ways - either you tell the kid to stand up for himself and fight back, or you tell him to try to be friends and consult the authorities if necessary.

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Originally posted by DigiNut ^This is ridiculous... another perfectly reasonable way to stop terrorists is to just kill them all, but you don't see anybody suggesting that. I hope other people are getting as tired of your inappropriate and insensitive comments as I am. Do you honestly think that the Palestinians' right to that land, even if we concede it is rightfully "theirs", overrides the Israelis' right to their lives? Stop terrorism FIRST... deal later.

Israel, knowing that going after terrorists and killing them, will create further vengeful and violent reactions, is putting herself at greater risk.

By trying to murder terrorists, and knowing that that this action will take more ISraeli lives, Israel is taking an irresponsible route. They are only asking for more death through suicide bombing. These terrorists will NEVER leave, as much as Israel would love it. Their occupation is breeding hundreds everyday.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Israel, knowing that going after terrorists and killing them, will create further vengeful and violent reactions, is putting herself at greater risk. By trying to murder terrorists, and knowing that that this action will take more ISraeli lives, Israel is taking an irresponsible route. They are only asking for more death through suicide bombing. These terrorists will NEVER leave, as much as Israel would love it. Their occupation is breeding hundreds everyday.

Okay, so just get rid of Palestine then.

Look, I'm not saying that they should do it, I'm merely using it as an example to show that just because something might work, doesn't mean it's the correct thing to do, the logical thing to do, or the only thing to do. If they killed the terrorists then it would breed more... yes, maybe that's true. If they gave Palestine everything they wanted then maybe it would destroy the Jewish state, at least that's what some people think.

We just can't predict the future, there's no telling what consequences may come of some particular action - that is why it's important to play it safe, and is the same reason why Israel is not very willing to negotiate at this point. There's been a lot of evidence showing up that suggests Arafat is not so loosely tied to the terrorist groups, and negotiating with terrorists is generally a bad idea.

I feel for all the innocents that have to suffer every day because of this conflict, both Palestinian and Israeli, but neither side has a leader who can offer peace in the long term. We can talk about potential peace arrangements all we want, but the point is that out in the middle east, neither side is acting rationally anymore.

Hey I have an idea... since the US seems to support Israel and the EU seems to support Palestine, we should get negotiators from the US and the EU to work out an arrangement, then have Sharon and Arafat sign it at gunpoint.

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Originally posted by DigiNut I feel for all the innocents that have to suffer every day because of this conflict, both Palestinian and Israeli, but neither side has a leader who can offer peace in the long term. We can talk about potential peace arrangements all we want, but the point is that out in the middle east, neither side is acting rationally anymore. Hey I have an idea... since the US seems to support Israel and the EU seems to support Palestine, we should get negotiators from the US and the EU to work out an arrangement, then have Sharon and Arafat sign it at gunpoint.

Hehe, not a bad idea! Really, it seems to me that even Palestinian and Yoepus would sooner achieve an agreement than any of the current peace negotiators from the area. It's funny when you look at the polls. Most palestinians want an independent state, most israelis are willing to give them an independent state. Most palestinians want the violence to stop, most israelis want the same. Yet they cannot make achieve a peace agreement. Fascinating.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Most palestinians want an independent state, most israelis are willing to give them an independent state. Most palestinians want the violence to stop, most israelis want the same.

but there are a few (on both sides!) that wont. the difference is i think israel can handle their extremists in a more efficient manner then the palestinians, who have yet to prove a respectable justice system free of bribery and corruption as well as showing a strong enough want and force to clamp down on those who commit grave acts

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Originally posted by Palestinian "Do you really think that textbooks, mosque sermons, or the failings of the Palestinian Authority are a greater influence on a Palestinian child than the Israeli tank in his backyard?"

Yes. Look at history. 2 cases: Bosnia and Tibet. Both countries were/are occupied by an outside force, both done so militarly (at least initially). The reason China and Serbia did not face suicide bombers was because of the fact that the textbooks, religious sermons and the government specifically did not encourage it. so yes despite what you think the PA, their textbooks and the mosques have a greater influence over the palestinian child then a tank does.

(edit - add east timor to the list as well)

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Originally posted by Izzy Yes. Look at history. 2 cases: Bosnia and Tibet. Both countries were/are occupied by an outside force, both done so militarly (at least initially). The reason China and Serbia did not face suicide bombers was because of the fact that the textbooks, religious sermons and the government specifically did not encourage it. so yes despite what you think the PA, their textbooks and the mosques have a greater influence over the palestinian child then a tank does. (edit - add east timor to the list as well)

And that Serbia, Indonesia, and China would massacre entire villiages of Bosnians, Tibetese(?), and Timorians if they would attempt Suicide Bombing - The Palestinians are reassured the Israelis would never do something like this, so they are not threatened. Israel would never do something like this for two primary reasons, first because the international world woulg go ballistic, and second because Israel tries to set it self up as a moralitic nation.

I think the fact that terrorist are animals and know that the west will not stoop to their level is defintely a factor that favors their continued reassurgance. However, we must note of course as Izzy specified this is not the only reason - it is clear that there have been countries much more severly oppresed by even benevolent powers, where such attacks did not exist.

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Hehe, not a bad idea! Really, it seems to me that even Palestinian and Yoepus would sooner achieve an agreement than any of the current peace negotiators from the area. It's funny when you look at the polls. Most palestinians want an independent state, most israelis are willing to give them an independent state. Most palestinians want the violence to stop, most israelis want the same. Yet they cannot make achieve a peace agreement. Fascinating.

Dunno bout fascinating, its fairly obvious as to why this is...it is because "most Israelis" and "most Palestinians" have no control over policy. It is a small group of, how can I put this?...****s (hey I'm English, every nationality on Earth thinks we are scum so I can use that kind of language if I want to!!) that control policy which, to be perfectly honest, are way out of touch with what the ordinary man on the streets would actually like to see happen...!

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Originally posted by Izzy but there are a few (on both sides!) that wont. the difference is i think israel can handle their extremists in a more efficient manner then the palestinians, who have yet to prove a respectable justice system free of bribery and corruption as well as showing a strong enough want and force to clamp down on those who commit grave acts Yes. Look at history. 2 cases: Bosnia and Tibet. Both countries were/are occupied by an outside force, both done so militarly (at least initially). The reason China and Serbia did not face suicide bombers was because of the fact that the textbooks, religious sermons and the government specifically did not encourage it. so yes despite what you think the PA, their textbooks and the mosques have a greater influence over the palestinian child then a tank does. (edit - add east timor to the list as well)

Youd be surprised how many bosnian youths went out with guns given to them by their elders, willing to kill anything serbian. I know of one personally. He told me the most horrific stories.

And guess what... they were taught to kill serbs.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Dunno bout fascinating, its fairly obvious as to why this is...it is because "most Israelis" and "most Palestinians" have no control over policy. It is a small group of, how can I put this?...****s (hey I'm English, every nationality on Earth thinks we are scum so I can use that kind of language if I want to!!) that control policy which, to be perfectly honest, are way out of touch with what the ordinary man on the streets would actually like to see happen...!

Nope - most Israelis support Sharon, and general Israeli will is very reflective of its leadership.

Israeli leadership has risen to the challenge of peace and recoiled in the face of violence. Palestinian leadership has always been in violence.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Youd be surprised how many bosnian youths went out with guns given to them by their elders, willing to kill anything serbian. I know of one personally. He told me the most horrific stories. And guess what... they were taught to kill serbs.

hehe you're not helping your cause here - afterall Bosnians are muslims, and later links betwen them and Arab terrorist organization such as Al Qadea have been fairly well linked.

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Originally posted by Yoepus hehe you're not helping your cause here - afterall Bosnians are muslims, and later links betwen them and Arab terrorist organization such as Al Qadea have been fairly well linked.

This had nothing to do with their religion.... he said there was so much hate, that religion was the last thing.

Also, remeber, there were also, croats and albanians that also did the same thing.


If you honestly think that religion is what mainly drives these people to go to such extreme lengths, then you obviously havent given a chance to imagine what its like living under occupation

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