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beatmixing in club level

hi guys, wanted to ask DJs who have spin in clubs with proper sound system and setup...

i was trying to beatmatch 2 songs together.
i feel they are well beatmatched based on the training/hearing standards from practices at home...
but once i release the next track live, it wasnt well beatmatched at all...when i listen to my head phones i can hear the track running...any reason for this?

the club is a relatively average size place which can hold 300 people.

i monitor using left ear on my hearphones(incoming track) and right ear on the live sound(outgoing track)...

thanks

It's difficult when you do it for the first time, as there is many other noises in the overall atmosphere (you may not be used to it), as opposed to when you are in a studio or at home. Experience will help you adapt to different sound systems. As long as it's a proper setup with monitors, you should be able to cope with the one ear monitoring.

Also, some earphones may work well in a quiet environment, while I have found others to work better in a loud gig environment.

im fcukin panickin - im DJin 2nite in a competition and i've never played out before. Im pretty good in my bedroom, rarely mess up but i've just got a funny feelin about this... im gonna die 2nite

Ac Dc the problem is not with you beatmatching.It is difficult at a club due to the atmosphere but thats not the problem either.It is with the sound set up at this club.
You haven't mentioned it in your post but I am almost sure the setup does not have monitors for the DJ.

You follow the most common method.Most Dj's use the left ear for incoming and right ear for out going.
The problem arises cause in this club there are no monitors so you beatmatch by listening to the main sound with your right ear.There is a delay in the sound.....i.e the sound reaches the headphones before it reaches the main speakers.
So what happens is you manage to find the pitch perfectly....you take the slider up but you will find the beats off. I guarantee you will have to 'plus ' everytime to get it matched. But if you hear it in your headphone you will feel the track is running and the temtation to 'minus' it will be very strong. But if you do then it will go off again.

The only solution is once you've found your pitch you need to hear both the tracks in your headphone and take the slider up. Once both the sliders are up then don't go back to the headphones cause IT WILL CONFUSE YOU!

If you have to bend then try and do it without listening to the haedphoes[very tough I know but thats what you get in a club without a proper set up.

If by some chance the club has monitors then there is a delay in the monitors as well which is very surprising cause that almost never happens.

Lemme know if you didn't understand any part of what I was trying to say.These problems are tough to put into words.

RIP_Technics if there are monitors at the competition you'll have no problem.
Best of Luck.

Re: beatmixing in club level

quote:

Originally posted by ac dc hi guys, wanted to ask DJs who have spin in clubs with proper sound system and setup... i was trying to beatmatch 2 songs together. i feel they are well beatmatched based on the training/hearing standards from practices at home... but once i release the next track live, it wasnt well beatmatched at all...when i listen to my head phones i can hear the track running...any reason for this? the club is a relatively average size place which can hold 300 people. i monitor using left ear on my hearphones(incoming track) and right ear on the live sound(outgoing track)... thanks

Hey there AC DC,

This can be a hard experience for a young DJ to say the least. Basically it makes you feel like you are having to learn a ton of new things that you thought you had mastered.

What it actualy boils down to is if you have monitors to help you and how the speakers in the club are set up.
There are many things that happen to the sound in a club before it reaches your ear. It mixes with clubbers, bounces off walls and funriture and a whole manner of sounds not to mention the quality of the actual speakers themselves and the direction they are facing.

Bachatu also mentioned headphones which is another factor. When playing out it's only worth having really good ones as most of the cheaper stuff really only works at home.

If you don't have a monitor at the club it sounds like you would be better off mixing in the headphones if the mixer gives that opportunity. Otherwise what you can do is when queing is lift the headphone away from your ear to create a slight lag between the sound and when it gets to your ear, just like the club sound. This method is very hard to master but it may help. If it's a loud system you may have trouble hearing the headphone though.

Playing out is a big challenge but once you understand how sound works you will get comfortable with it.


RIP_Technics
Don't worry about it... there will most likely be a few guys just like yourself. If you know you are good then it will get you a long way. Think if it like this... Just step up there and imagine that you own the place. Confidence goes a long way, if you look as if you are supposed to be there then they will forgive a lot. Remember to have fun and remember that DJ comps don't simulate what it's really like playing out. At a comp you are being assessed on your skills, on a dance floor people want to be entertained.
Depending on who judges the thing you may also find some strange results. People arent' always looking for best mixes but it is important to flow. And make the last thing you play memorable as it's what they will associate you with.
Best of luck for tonight mate.

Cheers
Nem

Re: Re: beatmixing in club level

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 If you don't have a monitor at the club it sounds like you would be better off mixing in the headphones if the mixer gives that opportunity. This will help. Otherwise what you can do is when queing is lift the headphone away from your ear to create a slight lag between the sound and when it gets to your ear, just like the club sound. This wont help. Cheers Nem

Nemesis the second method does not help because the problem is not that the sound from the main speakers takes time to get to you.
The sound reaches the main speakers late after going through the Equalizer,the Crossover and the amplifiers.That is why there is a delay.

If the distance from the sound was the problem then even monitors would not help cause you are 3-4 feet away from the monitor as well.With monitors the signal reaches the monitors the same time it reaches your headphones so beatmatching is a breeze.

Re: Re: Re: beatmixing in club level

quote:

Originally posted by ScratchMaster Nemesis the second method does not help because the problem is not that the sound from the main speakers takes time to get to you. The sound reaches the main speakers late after going through the Equalizer,the Crossover and the amplifiers.That is why there is a delay. If the distance from the sound was the problem then even monitors would not help cause you are 3-4 feet away from the monitor as well.With monitors the signal reaches the monitors the same time it reaches your headphones so beatmatching is a breeze.

Err.. the reason why it's delayed doesn't really matter does it... that fact that it is, is the issue here. Lag is lag whatever the cause.
What you are doing is just simulating it in your headphones by lifting it off slightly. I'm not saying this method will work for everone but it does help some people. For some reason when the sound of the club mixes with what's coming from the headphones it seems to lag the sound from the headphones a little. I find this helps but others may not.
I am talking about situations where you have no monitors and no split cue options etc. Then you have to rely on the sound from the main system.

Don't get me wrong, I know the reasons for the delay you have listed above are correct but there is more to it besides. I have played at tons of clubs in my career and encountered lots of different soundsystems that give loads of different issues, echoes, delays and phasing to name but a few. Speaker possitioning can mess you up just as much if not more than lag between hardware. Sometimes the monitors are wired up wrong and sometimes they are just plain crap.
All you have to know as a DJ is that there is a delay and the best way to deal with the situation. That only comes with experience.

Cheers
Nem

Good points Nem. Your posts are always very informative, at least in the Dj Booth.

Quick question though. I might be playing out very soon, at a decent sized club... maybe 500 people? I'm not sure how their sound system is setup, but realistically, how hard is it to mix IN the headphones? I do it at home and it works great for me. Is it extremely tough if the sound system is loud? Or is it possible if you concentrate on your headphones and try to mentally block out the main speakers. Or is it that you MUST adapt to one-ear monitoring at a club. It seems from all these posts that you need to constantly adapt if you are playing in different venues. It's impossible to mix INSIDE the headphones at any given moment? Thanks bro.

ID

hi thanks man that was informative and certainly come to help...
im sorry... i didnt type in greater details...so i would like to fill in now with the rest...

it is a well eqpted place... with 3 x technics 1210, rane mixer with split cue option, dual cdj denon 2600, and have monitor speakers facing me from top right at around 2 metres away from me...

my difficulties,
1) the volume was very loud and probably im not used to the volume also...

the problem is that despite having monitor speakers i couldnt differiate whether the sound came from the monitor speakers or the main room speakers...Or is it because i didnt turn up the monitor speakers enough?... QN: does the volune from the monitor speakers have to be louder than that of the main room speakers?

also when i go into the transition i wasnt sure if it sounded alright...i hear a not very pleasant distorted sound... but i dont know if it sounded bad or the volume was overloaded from the main speakers...

2) at home i use technics 1200...i realise there is a difference between the 1210 and the 1200... and have problems adapting to the slower pick up rate of the technics 1210.

i hope i have give a much better picture of what has happened and hopefully u guys can help... this problem doesnt justify the hours of training at home...

anyway, it was a good night and the people enjoyed the music... just that there were other DJs around too... and when they hear the beat run... they feel u are technically not good enough and u lose respect from the DJing community in my country.

quote:

Originally posted by ac dc 2) at home i use technics 1200...i realise there is a difference between the 1210 and the 1200... and have problems adapting to the slower pick up rate of the technics 1210.

lol - m8 the only differnce between the 1200s and the 1210s is their COLOUR


anyways.. i doubt ur monitors would have to be louder than ur main speakers but it would probably be right to say they have to be at a level where u can hear them clearly.

also u said somethin about the music sounding distorted? The one thing that springs to mind would be the channel volumes were spiking red on the equaliser? Try and keep them in the green at all times.

Sorry if this didnt help im new to DJin out myself..

Re: Re: Re: Re: beatmixing in club level

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 All you have to know as a DJ is that there is a delay and the best way to deal with the situation. That only comes with experience. Cheers Nem

Couldn't agree with you more.I've been playing for about 3 years now[guess that makes me a noobie by your standards]and if there is one thing I've learnt its that there is no substitute for experience.


Ac Dc ideally your monitor volume should be turned up to a level where you cant hear the main sound.As for it not sounding right you can just put that down to the club surroundings.

quote:

Originally posted by Ibiza Dreams Good points Nem. Your posts are always very informative, at least in the Dj Booth. Quick question though. I might be playing out very soon, at a decent sized club... maybe 500 people? I'm not sure how their sound system is setup, but realistically, how hard is it to mix IN the headphones? I do it at home and it works great for me. Is it extremely tough if the sound system is loud? Or is it possible if you concentrate on your headphones and try to mentally block out the main speakers. Or is it that you MUST adapt to one-ear monitoring at a club. It seems from all these posts that you need to constantly adapt if you are playing in different venues. It's impossible to mix INSIDE the headphones at any given moment? Thanks bro. ID

Hey there ID,

Providing the mixer let's you then you should be ok mixing in your phones as long as you have some pretty good ones.
The thing I would try to prepare you for is how loud a club system actually is, as this will definately be a change from what you are used to. The other thing you may have trouble with is hearing your phones but cup your hand and put it over the top of one of the ear pieces if you have to and press a little if need be.
If you are going to mix in your phones then what I would suggest to you is this, take them off your ears every so often just to check the sound of the mix so that what is happening in your ears is also being played on the dancefloor.
Once in the mix I would actually recomend that you use the monitors to control it anyway. This will help you know what everyone is hearing and will help you EQ better.

Something worth doing right that a lot of DJs don't is to EQ properly and I'm not talking about what you do during a mix but making sure that your levels are good so that you have a complete sound. To many times you hear DJs have too much high end or just a complete bass noise. Get there early and check to see how you want to sound if you can. Get a feel of what a good sound is like on the monitors and memorise roughly where the settings are on the mixer and then use it accordingly.

You don't have to adapt to one ear monitoring at a club but it's always good to be able to use all sorts of techniques as you never know what you will face.

I hope this helps some
Cheers
Nem

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: beatmixing in club level

quote:

Originally posted by ScratchMaster I've been playing for about 3 years now[guess that makes me a noobie by your standards]and if there is one thing I've learnt its that there is no substitute for experience.

My friend,
Experience is always experience and whilst we have DJayed for different lengths in time, you will most likely know something I don't and visa versa. As long as we accept we are learning we will all get better. You sound like someone who takes his Djing seriously... always a joy to see.

All the best
Nem

Ibiza Dreams,
First take what I say with a gran of salt as I am not one of the more experienced DJ on hear. I mix in the headphones a lot some things to note are, like Nem said, definitly make sure the sound is still coming out on the mains (and check it often). I talk my headphones off when I am in the mix but sometimes will put them back on if I need to change the pitch (this way you will usually catch something before the crowd does). What first threw me off when I was playing out was that the records sounding beatmatched in my headphones by the bass I was feeling in my feet was delayed to the point that it sounding ike they must be off. I had to just trust what the headphones were telling me and go with it and it turned out fine, just something to be aware of if it is your first time with a loud system.

Hey guys, thanks for the advice, it really helps. I'm a little more confident from what you guys said, and I'll definitely take it into account if I do get this chance to spin at a club. Just gotta have faith in what the headphones tell me!

ID

Nem kudos to you. Your posts give great adivce and shows your wisdom from your experience in djing. love reading them.

cheers

thanks for sharing... this has been of great help... i hope i get another chance to spin at a club of that kind of size soon...

im using the Sennheiser HD 25-SP dont know if that is considered as good enough for use in a club...

Anyway another QN: how do u all guys get used to the loud volume in the club which is abt a few times louder then that at home? blast the speakers of ur home to equal that of the club?

i think it makes me uncomfortable when mixing... my left ear with the head phones feels alright but the right ear monitoring the live sound feels a bit numb and pain...uncomfortable...

i'd wear earplugs if you're feeling pain in your ears. any pain that you're feeling is coming from damage being done to you ears. once you lose it you'll never get the hearing back that you've lost.

quote:

Originally posted by failsafe i'd wear earplugs if you're feeling pain in your ears. any pain that you're feeling is coming from damage being done to you ears. once you lose it you'll never get the hearing back that you've lost.

Agreed, if you are getting pain or ringing in your ears then ear plugs are a very good idea. There are some sites that offer specially made plugs for DJs. I will try and dig a site or two that does. There is one in particular that's really good but just can't remember off hand.

Cheers
Nem

www.hearingprotection.co.uk is one. Highly recommended. They supply a lot of top A list djs with plugs.

Getting used to club volume can take some time-its a totally different beast to mixing at home.

i have very, very, sensitive ears-i hate loud noise, from everthing to music to tv to radio- i like it at quite a low level, in fact, most people think its ridiculous how quiet i have music and stuff, and moan that they cant hear it properly when i can hear everything.
Im sure it has something to do with my tinnitus (have had it all my life and im sure its to do with constructive interference with the frequencies of it)

Whenever im in a club not working i will ALWAYS have my ear protection in- when im working its not as essential, as i have my headphones on at least 50% of the night and they are at a comfortable level, even though the main output may be loud. Most booths are quieter than the rest of the club anyway.
This is another reason i absolutely hate using the monitors to mix with one sided headphones- the sheer volume and the potential damage to my hearing.

Always found it strange that this is my profession and yet i hate loud noise-

oh man but the earplugs have to be custom made... impossible for me to fly over there and do one !!!

Are the ER20 good?
I've had my ear ringing a few times, and i can imagine what it would be like when i'll start playing out... my hearing is not that good, so i have to crank up the headphone volume a bit.

The ER20 are the only ones i can buy, because i live in portugal and can't make custom plugs. Anyone tried them?

As someone who is just starting to play out in clubs, I thought I should chip in on this thread.

My very first time playing in a club was a weird experience, for a few reasons. The biggest single thing is that you have to adapt to playing on a big system, and likely mixing somewhat differently than you would do at home in your bedroom. For example, I tried beatmatching with headphones on one ear while listening to monitor, and found that it didn't really work for me. Standing in a DJ booth with a pumpin' system was also a VERY weird experience the first time.

I've now spun in clubs three times locally, my most recent one being this past Sunday. I was very comfortable on Sunday, just really relaxed and got into things, and everything went really smoothly. I think that playing well in a club environment is definately an experience thing, but that's the same with pretty much anything in life - you generally don't rock at something the first time you try it.

My suggestion regarding the mixing part is to at least partially rely on what your bedroom DJing experience has taught you. For example, when I'm fading in a new track, I know that it generally sounds bad if both tracks have full bass running on EQ, so I adjust the knobs to compensate. I don't necessarily do so because I hear the bass ramping too high, I do it because I just know that you have to be careful with it (intuition/experience?).

The other thing I would suggest is adjusting your practicing at home to match what you are going to encounter in a club (if possible). For example, I used to use split cueing a great deal at home, but now I'm forcing myself to mix almost exclusively with stereo cueing (if that's the right term for it), because split cueing hasn't been an option on any of the club mixers I've used.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP_Technics im fcukin panickin - im DJin 2nite in a competition and i've never played out before. Im pretty good in my bedroom, rarely mess up but i've just got a funny feelin about this... im gonna die 2nite

hey, how did you do for the competition?

Re: Re: Re: Re: beatmixing in club level

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Err.. the reason why it's delayed doesn't really matter does it... that fact that it is, is the issue here. Lag is lag whatever the cause. What you are doing is just simulating it in your headphones by lifting it off slightly. I'm not saying this method will work for everone but it does help some people. For some reason when the sound of the club mixes with what's coming from the headphones it seems to lag the sound from the headphones a little. I find this helps but others may not. I am talking about situations where you have no monitors and no split cue options etc. Then you have to rely on the sound from the main system. Don't get me wrong, I know the reasons for the delay you have listed above are correct but there is more to it besides. I have played at tons of clubs in my career and encountered lots of different soundsystems that give loads of different issues, echoes, delays and phasing to name but a few. Speaker possitioning can mess you up just as much if not more than lag between hardware. Sometimes the monitors are wired up wrong and sometimes they are just plain crap. All you have to know as a DJ is that there is a delay and the best way to deal with the situation. That only comes with experience. Cheers Nem

Hi acdc, heh

Nem has a good pointers here and i do agree with him when he said to "lift the headphone away from your ear to create a slight lag between the sound and when it gets to your ear, just like the club sound".

With this i would like to add in that if one could adapt fast to the environment and actually get into the music and feel it as you are beatmatching and mixing, have the sound from the heads corresponse and go along with what you feel, things should be easier and sound good to the clubbers out there. Imho, if it happens, the night is yours.

That was what happened in the mainfloor that night and it wasn't exactly the same before you took over me, i didnt adapt as fast and the moniters seem to have a slight delay i believe, unlike the one which is so perfect in the mainroom.

Just my 2 cents.

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