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Discussion

Without saying what I think is right or wrong, without broaching into political implications, I thought I would throw out a couple of observations and see what sort of discussion develops:

Differences between the U.S. and Europe

Sex Vs. Violence
In the U.S. it's hard to watch TV for a day, even an hour without seeing some form of death on television. Whether animated, simulated, real or fake, violence is simply mainstream television these days, and American society has, as result, become desensetized to violence, relatively speaking. Sex, on the other hand(and at least until more recent years) has always been a more repressed subject. The attitude toward sex, largely until Fox TV of all stations came onto the scene in the early 90's, has been more of a "keep it in the bedroom". You don't see breasts, female genetalia, and certainly never male genetalia on screen. If you're lucky you can see it with big black boxes covering the sensitive material. If a show is going to show any indications of foreplay and "heavy petting", they'll give you ample warning before the show even comes on with a big warning screen. It would not be surprising, however to flip through TV stations and catch a dead body on the news or maybe a decapitation scene of some made for TV movie. In any event, there's a pretty clear divergence going on.

In Europe, sex in society is much more freely embraced by society. I remember walking down the streets in Europe when I was a kid, glancing over at the news stands, and seeing topless pictures all over the place--in newspapers, on magazine covers without the obtrusive plastic covering that U.S. titty mags have on them. Later that night I remember turning on the TV in my hotel room and finding not 1, not 2, but 3 channels simultaneously playing what looked like pretty hardcore sex. I was blown away! My parents felt safer keeping me out of my room. Europe was much more desensetized to sex relative to the U.S. Some places seem to go overboard--It's no secret that Germans are more or less the founding fathers of porno vids that feature people shitting on eachother. Now that's desensitized in my eyes! I've heard that violence on European TV is much more controlled. I don't have much personal experience to offer here except to say that I don't remember any violence that was on TV when I was there, but I definitely remember the sex. That's not to say violence wasn't on, I just may not have noticed it if you catch my drift.

Certainly it seems less damaging to society to freely display love and therefore sex--I can think of worse things than this. It would certainly make more sense to show less death and evil on TV as well. On the flip side, does the result mean that Europeans are a bunch of hopeless romantics while Americans are more tenacious realists? I'm not going to attempt to answer it, just point out the potential conclusions. Perhaps America's push towards more sex on TV combined with the already high levels of violence, has led to some of the orgiastic, sadistic activities and ideas that have shown up on American streets and in American theaters. Who knows, it's a bit of a reach, but it is pretty deep thinking.



Value vs. Commune
In what could be the ultimate corruptor or ultimate liberator of humans, depending on how it is molded, Capitalism is no doubt a fast moving, world changing social structure. In America everything has value. Everything costs something, "nothing is free". Everyone is concerned with money. Money gets you things. If you have a lot of dough, you can pretty much buy anything you want to make you feel better. In America, you can buy a new best friend if you want to. And money is easy to spend, so displays of the power of money are everywhere. Especially in big cities. America certainly revolves around the greenback, and it would seem that most of the world revolves around the dollar in some way or another. It can be pretty sickening if wasted irresponsibly.

In Europe, I don't think the view is so pervasive, but there is surely some money addiction over there as well. Maybe it's that Europe is more compact and most of the continent has been bought or sold 5 dozen times by now. The view is much more socialized over there--property seems much more communal--and more historic as well. There's always land for sale in the U.S.


Structure
Look at the structures of the two continents and their differences are visual. All of Europe is a collective group of smaller nation-states living in "harmony" with England having been relatively isolated from most of the land conflict, and being somewhat of a European anomaly and the Missing Link to America(They speak English for chrissake! America, on the other hand is a large, relatively open, independent nation with a little sister to the North (Speaking the English equivalent of French), an blacksheep brother to the South, and all of the most indulgent, money addicted, orgiastic lifestyles out on the far left.

However, there are elements of Old Europe within the American structure. Each of the 50 states operate independently of eachother, but with collective involvement and responsibility to the whole.

Anyway, I think I've rambled long enough without making it political, just interesting for discussion.

I agree with you here, which might be a first. On another note, your new avatar is awesome. I love Kingpin.

Thanks. Just call me Big Ern.

sex > violence --> Europe > USA

Re: Discussion

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Sex Vs. Violence

Make love, not war!

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew sex > violence --> Europe > USA

Hehe, must say I agree here. US is losing on a critical issue here.

Re: Discussion

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Sex Vs. Violence

Hmm might be, I sort of doubt the leading conclusions. European society is as violent as America, if not more, in its news broadcast, yet the effects of this violence seems to have a "softening" effect on the Europeans, instead of the "hardening" effect achieved when Americans view the same material. Examples are video of Sept 11th (It emboldened Americans against terrorist, weakened Europeans againt it), Iraq, and Balkans.

As for sex, I also believe that Europeans are still more sexually vile then Americans, just ask St. Andrew Perhaps more sex has made them 'soft' because they want to have sex with a lot of people. As opposed to Americans which don't regonize in that common humanity.

quote:

Value vs. Commune

I think this has to do with the fact that the US has no aristocracy, in the USA you call your waiter, Sir! It doesn't get any less informal then that. The only 'honor' the USA seems to have is a Judge, and I still haven't figured that one out. In all European society you have titles, King, Prince, Duke, Lord, Earl, Von, etc. Title creates a fixated aristrocracy instead of a meristocracy, and therefore you both see and Europeans feel it proper for a self-made man to have a harder time being self-made. They like to justify their history by rewarding those fortunate enough to entitlements.
Of course Aristocrates were only awarded these entitlements historically as they portrayted themselves as the 'knights' the caretakers of the peseants, and fought and supported for them. I think this is one reason why higher taxes on the rich in Europe is also more acceptable to Europeans than Americans.

The founding fathers of the USA made it implicit they wanted no such thing in the USA, where it is a land of opprotunity, where a man can make whatever he likes of himself.

There isn't this tradition of 'community' where the Aristocrates are supposed to take care of the poor.

quote:

Structure

I don't know, obviously the USA and EU systems are very similar, however the USA is a federation where as the EU is a confederacy - so the EU is more closely resembling the first USA government, then the current one. Perhaps overtime however the Europeans states will lose thier powers slowly but surely to the Federal government, much as the USA has, although the confederate structure prevents this from being done as easily as a federal system.

well hope you enjoyed my counter-ramblings.

Re: Re: Discussion

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Perhaps overtime however the Europeans states will lose thier powers slowly but surely to the Federal government, much as the USA has, although the confederate structure prevents this from being done as easily as a federal system.

heh, that will be the day when the Europeans give into a federal style gov't, I think European states have created too much of an identity for themselves to bow down to a central government....the EU is a joke.

Re: Re: Discussion

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus ... As for sex, I also believe that Europeans are still more sexually vile then Americans, just ask St. Andrew Perhaps more sex has made them 'soft' because they want to have sex with a lot of people. As opposed to Americans which don't regonize in that common humanity.

always thinking with your trigger finger eh? i do think there are some sex issues in Europe, yet i doubt they fall into the troubling realm, such as AIDS/HIV in Africa, or its exponentially growing numbers in Russia. i think the 'problem' is that USers treat sex as a 'problem'. whereas Euros realize that its natural and unstoppable.

how that makes them 'soft' or vile, i dunno. i think you are mistaking diplomacy, or minding their own business for apathy.

quote:

I think this has to do with the fact that the US has no aristocracy, in the USA you call your waiter, Sir! It doesn't get any less informal then that. The only 'honor' the USA seems to have is a Judge, and I still haven't figured that one out. In all European society you have titles, King, Prince, Duke, Lord, Earl, Von, etc. Title creates a fixated aristrocracy instead of a meristocracy, and therefore you both see and Europeans feel it proper for a self-made man to have a harder time being self-made. They like to justify their history by rewarding those fortunate enough to entitlements. Of course Aristocrates were only awarded these entitlements historically as they portrayted themselves as the 'knights' the caretakers of the peseants, and fought and supported for them. I think this is one reason why higher taxes on the rich in Europe is also more acceptable to Europeans than Americans. The founding fathers of the USA made it implicit they wanted no such thing in the USA, where it is a land of opprotunity, where a man can make whatever he likes of himself. There isn't this tradition of 'community' where the Aristocrates are supposed to take care of the poor.

well, i guess the Aristocracy had some function in social welfare, but i really dont think thats the reason.

and furthermore i think that the ideals of the Founding Fathers have been perverted to such a degree today as to the fact most people have no choice in their path, to a large degree. today you can only be rich if you go to a University, and not a trade school, and/or play professional sports. sure that isnt the be all end all, but in Europe at least you can choose one or the other without feeling guilty, or having others feel that for you via jealousy.

i think that social welfare has its roots in Rousseau, etal and all the other kids of Aristocracy, but the response in terms of Govt supported programs came directly from the Depression and ensuing Wars. yet they werent stupid enough to dismantle all those programs as soon as Ronald Reagan's stock point started to drop half a point.

quote:

I don't know, obviously the USA and EU systems are very similar, however the USA is a federation where as the EU is a confederacy - so the EU is more closely resembling the first USA government, then the current one. Perhaps overtime however the Europeans states will lose thier powers slowly but surely to the Federal government, much as the USA has, although the confederate structure prevents this from being done as easily as a federal system. well hope you enjoyed my counter-ramblings.

mm well i responded to your ramblings, not as an attack, just a staging point. im sure you might agree|

On a tangent:

Can't you see how the Internet has blurred/blended the lines between different geo-cultures?!

Europe is much more open then the US with sex, well, at least I can speak for Germany here. If you look on the cover of Bild, a newspaper, you will see a girl of the day and a little commentary over her. Or if you watch TV, there is a chance you will see some form of nudity, whether it be a commercial or even on the news. And after about 11:30 pm, then on a couople stations you will just see girls dancing around advirtising for a sex hotline. I personally think sex is health and this kind of relaxs the system a bit. And at the train-stations you will usually see a condom vending machine and "Mach's mit" posters everywhere (do it with a condom). Germany is also more open to contraception which I find an important detail.

If Janet were to pop a boob in Germany, the people would probably say, "It's about damn time."

Re: Re: Re: Discussion

quote:

Originally posted by biznology always thinking with your trigger finger eh? i do think there are some sex issues in Europe, yet i doubt they fall into the troubling realm, such as AIDS/HIV in Africa, or its exponentially growing numbers in Russia. i think the 'problem' is that USers treat sex as a 'problem'. whereas Euros realize that its natural and unstoppable. how that makes them 'soft' or vile, i dunno. i think you are mistaking diplomacy, or minding their own business for apathy.

The sex problems I were getting at is that the Europeans tend to be larger pedophiles and sex slave consumers then Americans. I make this conclusion based on some figures I remember from 'sex tourism' numbers to places like Thailand and South America, and recent INTERPOL investigations into the matter.. of course I might be wrong, so please look for figures and make up your own mind.

This "vile" sex culture would be opposed to the "vile" violence culture in America, where as Europeans like to have a sex with a transgender thai boy, Americans prefer raiding a school with guns ever now and then.

quote:

well, i guess the Aristocracy had some function in social welfare, but i really dont think thats the reason.

The history of the aristrocracy, although unclear, seems to have risen from the fuedal system where the baron, or aristocrate is in charge of law, order, and the welfare of his serfs.

quote:

and furthermore i think that the ideals of the Founding Fathers have been perverted to such a degree today as to the fact most people have no choice in their path, to a large degree. today you can only be rich if you go to a University, and not a trade school, and/or play professional sports. sure that isnt the be all end all, but in Europe at least you can choose one or the other without feeling guilty, or having others feel that for you via jealousy.

I don't know exactly what you are getting at here, after all the richest man in the world (who lives in the USA) happens to not even have a college education. In fact countless billionares in America have become billionares without the aid of university, such as Michael Dell. Also it is now common for many sports players to not even play in University but go directly to pros.

I don't think having a highly educated work force is necessiarly a bad thing, and I don't understand your point here that their is no degree of choice. I don't think this degree is different in any other country. If you want to be rich, you have to be smart, is that really different?

quote:

i think that social welfare has its roots in Rousseau, etal and all the other kids of Aristocracy

No not Rousseau, that was during the enlightenment, a great deal afterwords. Aristocracies, although notably always existant in our history prevailed in Europe as a ruling phenomena greatly during and after the end of the Dark Ages.

quote:

mm well i responded to your ramblings, not as an attack, just a staging point. im sure you might agree|

A staging point for what?

quote:

I don't know exactly what you are getting at here, after all the richest man in the world (who lives in the USA) happens to not even have a college education. In fact countless billionares in America have become billionares without the aid of university, such as Michael Dell. Also it is now common for many sports players to not even play in University but go directly to pros. I don't think having a highly educated work force is necessiarly a bad thing, and I don't understand your point here that their is no degree of choice. I don't think this degree is different in any other country. If you want to be rich, you have to be smart, is that really different?

Or just get lucky and steal a good idea.

i got an interesting insight into american censorship laws watching a show on hospital emergency rooms over there. They showed someone who came off a motorcycle, an absolute mess. The doctor who was giving the commentary picked up a foot that had been ripped off in the accient and showed it to the cameras, blood and bones and all. Yet they blurred out the victims genitals.
Socitey there is quite happy to accept graphic details of violence and this kind of accident, yet nudity is very harshly regulated. I would much rather society get comfortable with sex than to simply accept death, mutilation, violence and the like, but US regulators seem happy to do things the other way around.

quote:

Originally posted by tubby i got an interesting insight into american censorship laws watching a show on hospital emergency rooms over there. They showed someone who came off a motorcycle, an absolute mess. The doctor who was giving the commentary picked up a foot that had been ripped off in the accient and showed it to the cameras, blood and bones and all. Yet they blurred out the victims genitals. Socitey there is quite happy to accept graphic details of violence and this kind of accident, yet nudity is very harshly regulated. I would much rather society get comfortable with sex than to simply accept death, mutilation, violence and the like, but US regulators seem happy to do things the other way around.

thats interesting, however i would rather see his bloody foot than his ding dong

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