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-- Dateline: Iraq
Dateline: Iraq
DATELINE: IRAQ
It took roughly a year to stand up a constituion recognized by the the entire civilized world. Yes, it does need some tweeking to
legitamately recognize all parties involved but this NEEDS to be
right. Your thoughts on this subject will be sincerely respected.
...except you Rizen
Wow, your silence speaks volumes.
I'm here. 
I hold grave fears for the future of Iraq, primarily because one fundamentalist Muslim group will invariably end up dominating the government, imposting it's will upon the rest of the population. Believe it or not, there is actually a sizeable Christian minority in Iraq, who apparently had quite a good time under Saddam.
They've apparently adopted Islam as a 'state religion', and added a clause to stipulate that no laws against Islam my be proposed and/or passed. At the same time, the constitution apparently guarantees 'religious freedom'. As someone who strongly believes in church-state separation, this isn't exactly an encouraging development. 
That's vey interesting about christians in Iraq, regardless of numbers, within the pop. I think your right about the powerbase being the majority Shiites. This is history in the making and we've only seen the the opening credits.
thanx.
pah the Shiites refused to sign it at the last minute now.
*Sigh*
Why is it often those who are unwilling to sacrifice themselves that are so gung ho pro-war?
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| Originally posted by Q5echo Wow, your silence speaks volumes. |
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Iraqi Shiites, in a Blow to U.S., Fail to Sign Temporary Charter By DEXTER FILKINS Published: March 6, 2004 AGHDAD, Iraq, March 5 � A group of Shiite leaders refused to sign Iraq's temporary constitution on Friday unless changes were made that would strengthen Shiite power, throwing the political process here into disarray and posing a major embarrassment for American officials. Five Shiite leaders said they had decided to back out of the agreement reached earlier this week after meeting with Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, the country's most powerful religious leader. They said they wanted to strike from the temporary constitution a provision that would allow a relatively small minority of the country's voters to block the passage of a permanent constitution, which is to be written next year. |
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http://www.mfso.org/ February 2, 2004 Rockford, Illinois George Bush 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Washington, D.C. 20502-4259 Dear Mr. Bush, In response to head weapons inspector David Kay's statement that he believes there are and were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq (Associated Press), you are quoted as saying, "There is no doubt in my mind that Saddam Hussein was a grave and gathering threat to America and the world is better off without him." My beloved son Brian died for your red herring in the sand. He was an honorable, restrained, talented, caring man, and the world would be better off with him alive and well. He resigned his commission in the Illinois National Guard when assigned to duty in Iraq as a matter of conscience. He served nonetheless, and he bled for 1/2 hour in the desert sand before any help arrived, though the helicopter he was flying was only 5 minutes off the ground when it crashed, according to witnesses. After his death, I received two letters from him telling me he hoped to be home in April, 2004. On Christmas day I visited his grave. He did not give his life. It was cruelly taken from him by your rush to war -- against the United Nations, old allies like France and Germany, western religions' "Just War Doctrine," the entire Arab world, and most civilized nations. You inherited peace and prosperity and created murder, mayhem, and massive debt. According to the ongoing investigation of the helicopter crash that took Brian's and 15 other American lives, the Illinois National Guard aircraft were sent into the field without basic survivability equipment, to accommodate your "shoot and bomb first, think and investigate later" brand of foreign policy. We don't need a trigger happy president. Finders keepers, losers weepers. While we who have lost our loved ones have only tears to fill the empty space where love and laughter lived, you and your Halliburton cronies have found the oil wells and will undoubtedly keep your blood stained gains. Our sorrow, your gain. Brian was conscientious; someone wasn't. Brian was faithful; someone wasn't. Brian was thoughtful; someone wasn't. Brian was considerate; someone wasn't. Brian was truthful; someone isn't. Brian wasn't sloppy. Someone is. Sincerely, Rosemarie Dietz Slavenas |
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Open letter: 12/31/03 09:04:51 p.m Another year ends today, a year full of important events in the lives of the American people and especially many Latino families like mine. Exactly one year ago my entire family was gathered together, ready to enjoy a meal prepared by my wife and daughters. My son, Jesus, was so happy with his wife and their son Erick. Everyone sat around the table and we counted the 12 tollings of the bell and ate the traditional 12 grapes, hoping that the new year 2003 would be full of joy, peace, love, and prosperity for all. We embraced and wished each other much happiness for 2003. I recall that my daughter Olivia told me, "Dad, you will have many opportunities this year," and Jesus told me "Father, Thank you for educating me. I am a Marine now and I hope to do well so that you will be proud of me." I answered him that I was already proud of him, that I had always been proud, and that I hoped he would achieve his goals together with his wife and son. And so that terrible year began with much hope for the entire family, for the American people, and especially for all Californians. And February arrived with its rumors of war and with the stubborness and inflexibility of Mr Bush who insisted on attacking Iraq. The UN could not use its authority nor the rule of law to stop him and so the world waited with fear as Bush declared that according to intelligence the regime in Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. On the fifth of February, Jesus bid us farewell and headed towards his destiny in the faraway lands of Iraq. As he said goodbye we embraced alone outside in the driveway of our home. It was diffcult for me to hold back my tears but he was optimistic and with great clarity he told me, "Father, do not fear, nothing will happen to me, we are well trained and well prepared. But if something does happen please take care of my son and educate him as you did me." He climbed in the car with his wife and son at 9 p.m. March arrived, the nineteenth to be exact, when American troops began their offensive against Iraq. The war begain without the support of the UN, without the support of the American people, without the support of the world community--a war started by Mr Bush who lied to the American people and to the world community. Mr Bush insisted that Iraq was a threat to the US and the whole world and unfortunately many believed him and so the deaths began. And on March 27 a young Mexican boy fell, full of hopes and dreams, deceived by the government, a good boy who had more important work ahead, a son to love, raise and educate. Yes, Jesus Alberto Suarez del Solar Navarro, the Aztec Warrior, died because of the negligience of the US military command in Iraq. A US cluster bomb had been dropped the night before but Delta Comapany was not advised and so the tragedy took place and two hours passed before helicopters could evacuate him. He did not die alone but rather he died with his friends, his brothers, and their love surrounding him. He died free of hate and in peace. April 11 arrived--the day the Aztec Warrior was sowed, yes sowed because he is a seed for peace for future generations. We all wept because of his loss and his absence but his mother, my wife, suffers the most, she who bore him, took care of him when he was ill, who taught him to respect me and to love me. She is the one who has suffered the most. And the rest of 2003 passed by and many more brave American youth have died and with them their dreams until we have almost reached 500 dead American troops and thousands and thousands of innocent Iraqis. And December 4 arrived, my grandson's birthday, and I found myself in the exact place where my Aztec Warrior fell. And I placed a crucifix, said a prayer, and gathered the earth where his blood ran. I fulfilled my promise to my wife that I would find that sacred spot, and during my time in Iraq I could see and witness that my son was right to say that the children of Iraq were the ones who really needed our help. And I could witness as I visited the hospitals and shortages of medicine the lack of economic assistance provided by the Bush administration. And in the schools I could see that the children are eager to learn but do not have what they need to get ahead and the Bush administration offers them nothing. I could feel it in the streets of Baghdad where shoeless children whose parents died in the war offered me a smile in exchange for a friendly word, a kiss in exchange for letters from American children. In short, I could see that the liberation of the Iraqi people has cost them a great deal and it has cost the US as well. And December 14 arrived, the day the dictator and murderer Sadaam Hussein was captured. And Mr Bush tells us that at last we have him, that peace has arrived for the Iraqi people, but in the ensuing days the deaths of young Americans increase and Mr Bush continues to lie to us, continues violating international law, claiming that Sadaam will be treated as a prisoner of war and tried under international law only to tell us days later that the Iraqi people must try and sentence him. What about international law? Why does Bush fear an international tribunal? And so we arrive to the present, the 31st of December, the end of this terrible and unhappy year 2003 and what do we find? That everywhere, in every city and in every family, there is joy, optimism, and the usual New Year's Eve custom of conveying our best wishes. This is why I have taken the liberty to write this letter in order to tell you that it is imperative that in this coming year of 2004 we be cautious and very focused in our actions, for this is the beginning of a presidential election year in this great nation. And we must do everything in our power to make sure that Mr Bush is not reelected and to ensure that he does not steal the election. I invite everyone to reflect on recent events that have cost so many lives, jobs, broken families, economic ruin, and do all we can to defeat Bush, a defeat that is in the best interest of the American people and world peace. The hope of my entire family is that God will grant you the health and strength to continue this struggle. In peace. P.S. I wish to thank all those who have offered their support, friendship, and warmth. I cannot name everyone and do not want to forget anyone. But you know who you are. I would also like to thank the representatives of the media who have covered my activities in the service of peace. POR UNA GENERACION LLENA DE PAZ Y AMOR!! EL GUERRERO AZTECA May God Bless all of you. Sincerely: Fernando Suarez del Solar |
Regrettably, I do not believe the majority of the people of Iraq have the desire to respect the rights of each and every other individual. Until they develop to this point, leaving them to their own devices will inevitably lead to unacceptable consequences. Worse yet, I can see that the U.S., both the government and the public, do not have the conviction to maintain liberty in Iraq for an extended period of time.
Hence, I fear a further regression of individual liberty in Iraq may be, at this point, simply an inevitability.
So what i am hearing is a common dissention, pessemism, and possibly antagonism to an ideal, not a realistic goal to stand up a country for an embattled people. I can understand your views and even sympathize your feelings about my president, but i assure you Iraq will be here long after he, Chourac, Annan, Poutin, even you and i are gone. The Iraqi people are going to stand up for themselves regardless of what happens to everyone else in the middle east does, i am starting to see it already. Optimistic, maybe, but history is writing itself everyday.
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| Originally posted by Q5echo So what i am hearing is a common dissention, pessemism, and possibly antagonism to an ideal, not a realistic goal to stand up a country for an embattled people. I can understand your views and even sympathize your feelings about my president, but i assure you Iraq will be here long after he, Chourac, Annan, Poutin, even you and i are gone. The Iraqi people are going to stand up for themselves regardless of what happens to everyone else in the middle east does, i am starting to see it already. Optimistic, maybe, but history is writing itself everyday. |
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| Originally posted by igottaknow Meaning if he gets elected he will not be under any obligation to follow what the US has laid out, and most likely he'll set up a theocracy. |
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| Originally posted by arctic Didn't they nominate Islam as the 'state religion', and dictate that 'no law against Islam may be made'? I don't know, it already looks like a theocracy to me. What on earth would possess someone to enshrine a specific religion in a countries constitution really is beyond me. |
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| Originally posted by Dj_Irish Yup, Islam is the state religion and although they agreed to not use sharia there is a clause stating that Islam could be used as a guidance when making laws. Loophole anyone? And as for the women, a certain percentage of the governmental seats (or whatever it may be called) was upposed to be filled by women. Now that is seen as a "goal" rather than a requirenment which means women are gonna be left out. Also, the Kurds get continued self-rule but the questions regarding the kurdish borders are still unresolved and will most probably a big problem later on. Especially if the Kurds still lay claims on the city of Kirkuk, which historically is an important city for the Kurds. Kirkuk also happens to have one of the larger oil-reserves in Iraq so obviously everybody wants a piece of that. Indeed, it's gonna be a very bumpy road ahead. |
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| Originally posted by arctic Personally I don't understand why the US didn't put it's foot down and simply insist on no religion in the constitution. I mean, isn't endorsing Islam as a state religion whilst ensuring religious freedom a tad contradictory? |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by igottaknow
They want an exit strategy.
Of course. this exit strategy was was planned well ahead of the invasion.
Look you can't impose a political system on a people who don't support it.
Your right. But the Iraqi people more than just want this, they need this. They have nothing else but the first draft of a very broad reaching constitution and a bill of rights the fundamental basis for self government.
The bush administration likes to float these unrealistic ideas of democratization that have no bases of reality on the ground.
What has happened within the last year was, in hindsight, pretty unrealistic but real none the less or we would not be talking about it in the past tence (i know i sound like a smartass but it's the way i write).
The simplistic, naive way the government and the mainstream media portray these complex foreign situations, does the public a great disservice.
i agree. Most of us are a little naive to this entire situation including the media. When was the last time this generation or even the last severl generations exposed to something of this magnitude?
i think administration has an obligation to keep things as simple possible in explaination of their intentions to the world.
My point is i have yet to see a valid alterior motive. (as of yet)
but as to the standing up of this country from a purely global perspective is pretty impressive given one year.
We'll just have to wait and see if the Iraqi people have the strenth.
thanx
Democracy is a dirty word in Iraq, just like most of the Middle East. That's because they've never enjoyed the freedoms the modern civilized world takes for granted. They're instead mired in old tribal traditions and achaic religious practices. The biggest problem is that the general populace knows no better, since they've lived in a cloistered society since birth. It's going to take a lot of time even after a new constitution, new government, and new laws before Average Habib can down a few beers, cruise down the strip, and hit the club with his buds to listen to a little trance mixed by Oakenfold and pick up some hot babes.
[[[smoke]]]
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| Originally posted by smokeape It's going to take a lot of time even after a new constitution, new government, and new laws before Average Habib can down a few beers, cruise down the strip, and hit the club with his buds to listen to a little trance mixed by Oakenfold and pick up some hot babes. [[[smoke]]] |
That would be the scream'n shits though!
Yeah, but realistically, a night on the town with their camel probably does the same for them now. Hmmm, this GI's been in Iraq too long...
Lol!!
[[[smoke]]]
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