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iSpy

Recently in the news someone was caught spying on the US. Whenever this happens I always think, What's the difference between gathering intelligence and spying. Seems hypocritical for governments to have agencies dedicated to spying on other countries and act outraged when they catch someone spying on them. Government/Police even like to spy on their own citzens and when you complain they say if your not doing anything wrong you should have a problem. Why doesn't that arguement apply to them? One other thing. Why do the individuals who get caught get harsh punishments and the country who he works for gets off scott free?

there is a difference to when another country spies on you and 'gathers intelligence'.

The later is usually reserved for gathering publicly available information on that nation (such as collecting GDP stats, maps, address, names, ranks, etc) the former is reserved for all else 'private data' and is collected typically via dobious means.

That said, undoubtedly every nation tries to spy on one another, and for this their are 'spy rules' where they usually just catch the spy, imprison him and wait to exchange him when one of their spies is caught by the other team. Sort of like a game of tag but with cooler gadgets.

Damn naughty cousins!:

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Accused Spy Is Cousin of White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card By Matthew Daly The Associated Press Thursday 11 March 2004 | 9:27.pm.est.us WASHINGTON - The woman charged with working for the Iraqi spy agency is a cousin of President Bush's chief of staff, Andrew Card, and has held a variety of jobs in journalism and on Capitol Hill. Susan Lindauer, 41, worked in the press offices of four Democratic members of Congress. She also worked for Fortune magazine, U.S. News & World Report, the Seattle Post-Intelligencer and Fox News. Her father, John Lindauer, was the Republican nominee for governor in Alaska in 1998. His campaign unraveled because of charges of campaign finance violations to which he pleaded no contest. Susan Lindauer is a 1985 Smith College graduate who describes herself as an anti-war activist. Gary Gambill, editor of the Middle East Intelligence Bulletin, an online publication dealing with Arab politics, said Lindauer sent him a copy of her 1998 deposition in litigation related to the December 1988 bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. In the deposition, she said Libyan officials had been wrongly accused of orchestrating the bombing and that Libya was entitled to "financial compensation for the economic harassment her people have endured because of these blatantly false accusations." He said her arrest "raises questions about the validity of her deposition and its apparent attempt to exonerate Libya." Lindauer started her congressional career in 1993 when she took a job with Rep. Peter DeFazio, D-Ore. The next year she went to work for a second Oregon Democrat in the House - Ron Wyden. Two years later she joined the staff of Sen. Carol Moseley Braun, D-Ill. After a brief stint at Fox News, she worked for Rep. Zoe Lofgren, D-Calif., for a few months in 2002. Lofgren said in a statement she was shocked by the arrest. "To my knowledge, this former employee had no access to sensitive information," she said. "Obviously, I had no reason to think that she was involved in this alleged activity. I have had no further contact with her since she left my employ." DeFazio said he has not spoken to Lindauer in more than 10 years. "We didn't part on the best of terms," he said. Lindauer's neighbors in Takoma Park, Md., recalled her as friendly. Joao Luiz Vieire de Castro, 39, described Lindauer as "a regular American who walks her dog in the mornings and the afternoon." http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/8163706.htm

I agree that agencies like the CIA gather intelligence, but they also employ spy tacticts as well, so to represent yourself a simply an "intelligence agency" is deceptive. My point is governments knowingly engage in illegal activity. btw, you think we have an exchange program with iraq. lol

But she's a democrat! I always knew they were traitors!

Politicians love using specially crafted jargon to put a postive spin on it. After 9/11, officials often speak of improving our "Human Inteligence".

What do you think "Human Intelligence" is?

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Originally posted by igottaknow I agree that agencies like the CIA gather intelligence, but they also employ spy tacticts as well, so to represent yourself a simply an "intelligence agency" is deceptive. My point is governments knowingly engage in illegal activity. btw, you think we have an exchange program with iraq. lol

I don't really understand what the argument is ... governments do face repurcussions from being caught for spying on foreign countries. They lose intelligence assets and they face international embarrasement. However, there is no international law against spying. There are however, domestic laws against treason.

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Originally posted by occrider I don't really understand what the argument is ... governments do face repurcussions from being caught for spying on foreign countries. They lose intelligence assets and they face international embarrasement. However, there is no international law against spying. There are however, domestic laws against treason.

My point is its hypocritical to treat a spy as a criminal if you engage in the same activity. It would be similar creating an agency to smuggle drugs out of the country and then prosecute ppl trying to smuggle drugs into the country.

btw embarrasing a country is a laughable deterent

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Originally posted by igottaknow My point is its hypocritical to treat a spy as a criminal if you engage in the same activity. It would be similar creating an agency to smuggle drugs out of the country and then prosecute ppl trying to smuggle drugs into the country. btw embarrasing a country is a laughable deterent

Well that's kind of the name of the game. Operatives become operatives knowing the risks of their actions full well. It's not like they're being taken advantage of here. So what would you advocate? Reduce human intelligence? Legalize treason? I'm not entirely sure what alternative you desire. Is this a debate on the ethical justification (or lackthereof) of state espionage?

And a souring of country relations is something of a deterrant ... plus the loss of a citizen.

Ahhh...Remember Gary Powers...moron spy extraordinaire.

I agree with Occrider. Spying is the name of the game, and the chief risk is essentially that if you get caught, you're in the deepest of deep shit. Even worse if you're a double-agent. Spies must make a shitload of money.

It's all a big game of surveillance and evasion.

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Originally posted by occrider It's not like they're being taken advantage of here. So what would you advocate?

I think there are legitimate arguements for and against. My feeling is if we as a country decide to do it we should not take criminal action against other who do it to us. Fitting punishment would be to send said person back back to their patron country. We should be up front about what it is and use the same terminology, not calling it our human intelligence and their spying.

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Is this a debate on the ethical justification (or lackthereof) of state espionage?

I was just letting loose some ideas that were bouncing round my head today, but the main jist is the ethical justification.

The other idea is if spying is a criminal offense don't you think the country paying the spy is equally if not more responsible. For example, the US new policy on terrorism makes no distiction between the terrorist and the countries who give them support. Why is it when it comes to spying that the individual shoulders the entire wait of the punishment. Its like if i hired an assassin to kill you. Would it be fair to give the assassin a life sentense while embarrassing me for my punishment.

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And a souring of country relations is something of a deterrant ... plus the loss of a citizen.

Since they usually recruit spys from the country they're spying from they not losing a citizen if he/she gets caught. How does your souring deterrant explain iraq spying on us?

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Originally posted by igottaknow Fitting punishment would be to send said person back back to their patron country. We should be up front about what it is and use the same terminology, not calling it our human intelligence and their spying.

Send them back to their patron country??? So they can tell their government about all of the secrets they found out when they were spying? How is this punishment??? If anything it seems like rewarding a spy for getting caught. I'm sure his/her patron country would give him/her a medal and a fat retirement package if that were to happen.


The problem is that the spy is the one who actually holds the secrets. Sure, his government holds some responsibility in the grand scheme of things, but the sensitive information is in posession of the spy himself/herself.

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Originally posted by Shakka Send them back to their patron country??? So they can tell their government about all of the secrets they found out when they were spying? How is this punishment??? If anything it seems like rewarding a spy for getting caught. I'm sure his/her patron country would give him/her a medal and a fat retirement package if that were to happen. The problem is that the spy is the one who actually holds the secrets. Sure, his government holds some responsibility in the grand scheme of things, but the sensitive information is in posession of the spy himself/herself.

You don't seem to know much about espionage. First of all, information isn't delivered in person, documents are usually copied and sent in code. By the time they catch a spy the damage has already been done. The spy acts as a conduit by which the info travels. You think a person can store thosands of documents in his mind. that too funny

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Originally posted by igottaknow You don't seem to know much about espionage. First of all, information isn't delivered in person, documents are usually copied and sent in code. By the time they catch a spy the damage has already been done. The spy acts as a conduit by which the info travels. You think a person can store thosands of documents in his mind. that too funny

Hehe it still wouldn't work. That woudl be the sweetest deal if you simply deported a spy. Shit, I'll spy on the US then ... "Russia, you give me $5000 a month for sensitive information and then when I get caught, you set me up in a sweet dacha with a good job and a monthly stipend." There is simply no disincentive for someone to NOT turn treasonous if they are dissatisfied in any way whatsoever.

With respects to the ethical considerations for espionage, one could most certainly argue that a nation is morally justified and even recquired to engage in acts of espionage in order to protect a country's national security and the well-being of its citizens ...

"Honesty ought not to allow the creation of an emergency by the enemy, when deception can forestall or avert it. . . . Whenever it is right to resist an assault or a threat by force, it must then be allowable to do so by guile."

-Sissela Bok

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Originally posted by igottaknow You don't seem to know much about espionage. First of all, information isn't delivered in person, documents are usually copied and sent in code. By the time they catch a spy the damage has already been done. The spy acts as a conduit by which the info travels. You think a person can store thosands of documents in his mind. that too funny

Maybe, but the spy still holds pretty sensitive information. To believe otherwise would be foolish. While I admit I am not a spy, nor do I have plans to become a spy or enter the espionage field, my powers of reason tell me that simply sending a spy back home would be the ideal punishment--in the eyes of the spy. No reprocussions at all.

A good spy must be prepared to sacrifice life and limb if his secrecy becomes compromised--hence my reference to Gary Powers--the infamous U2 pilot who was shot down and "forgot" to take his cyanide pill, creating a big clusterfuck and egg on the face of the US.

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Originally posted by occrider Hehe it still wouldn't work. That woudl be the sweetest deal if you simply deported a spy. Shit, I'll spy on the US then ... "Russia, you give me $5000 a month for sensitive information and then when I get caught, you set me up in a sweet dacha with a good job and a monthly stipend." There is simply no disincentive for someone to NOT turn treasonous if they are dissatisfied in any way whatsoever.

It's a misnomer that ppl spy for the money. The motivation for most include: to further a cause they believe in, a desire for excitement, or retribution against their government, but not for money.

On the question of a suitable punishment. There should be some punishment for the spy, but it's unjust not to take any meaningful action against the sponsor country. The UN could setup universal rules and guidelines agreed by all countries on the treatment and punishments doled out. International court and jail that deals with this type of crime wouldn�t be a bad idea. You might think it would be ridiculous to have an international rulebook on spying, but it�s not that far fetched when you think there is one for War.

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With respects to the ethical considerations for espionage, one could most certainly argue that a nation is morally justified and even recquired to engage in acts of espionage in order to protect a country's national security and the well-being of its citizens ...

so you're saying we have a moral obligation to spy

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Originally posted by igottaknow It's a misnomer that ppl spy for the money. The motivation for most include: to further a cause they believe in, a desire for excitement, or retribution against their government, but not for money.

actually the two chief reasons people spy:

blackmail
money

most spies are "informants" people you bribe,pay, or blackmail in positions where they have access to stuff you want.

http://norfolk.fbi.gov/walker.htm

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Interviews of convicted American spies have identified some of the most common reasons for committing espionage: Greed: The belief that money can be a quick fix or a source of happiness. Adventure: To add excitement to an otherwise boring life. Revenge: The desire to get back at someone or something. Ego: Combines with other motivators to boost one's self-esteem Ingratiation: A desire to please or win the approval of the foreign intelligence officer who has been recruiting the spy. Identification/ideology: Identification with a country or belief system; also, the sense of helping an "underdog."

v---- well said, finally someone who gets what i'm saying

The only difference between Spying and Intellgence Gathering is the victim. When we are the victims its spying. When we are doing the spying, its Intelligence Gathering. Its like when members of our military are captured and tortured, we condemn them for using such tactics against prisoners. But when Saddam was captured, he was subjected to "aggressive interogation." Though, we all know he got the shit kicked out of him.

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Originally posted by igottaknow so you're saying we have a moral obligation to spy

I would say so yes. If Mexico poses a direct threat to the United States by developing WMD factories and terrorist training camps, I would say that it is the duty of the intelligence services to find out, to the best of their ability, whatever information they can gather about what kind of threat Mexico poses to us. Now if that intelligence gathering apparatus includes human intel on the ground through recruitment of mexican nationals than so be it. If a mexican version of a september 11 occurs and we find out that officials could have reasonably prevented it if they had used human intel than I would hold them culpable for failing to protect the national security of the US. Now I wouldn't give the CIA or whomever a blank check to do everything they need to do, but I would say that espionage is not morally reprehensible enough to require a Geneva convention of sorts. Every country is more or less aware of the risks involved/posed with the practice ... and so are the human intelligence assets.

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