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is non-real-time mixing lame?

i heard that for the most part, popular trance compilations (MoS, godskitchen, others) just have some guy compiling tracklists for the cds unless noted otherwise. i mean, i do that on my own with acid pro, and i think i'm pretty good at it. does that mean any old schmuck like me could do that job?

i want to try vinyl mixing in the future; i just dont have the resources. i wonder if the dancefloor would care if some guy walked in with a laptop and some audio equipment.

josh gabriel uses a powerbook, i think BT uses a laptop too. if you're good at it go for it, i say. if you can make people move their feet, rock on. i'm sure that there are going to be plenty of people that are gonna bitch about you using a laptop but whatever...... its 2004.

btw.... i have never used Acid Pro so i dont really know what you do with it, but if you are talking about making a cd ahead of time and just playing a mix cd in a club, thats lame. big time

You would probably catch some shit but as long as the dance floor is rocking, who can complain? Like the above post I agree that making a CD and then just playing it is lame. Considerebly less lame would be going in there with your laptop and maybe doing "non-realtime mixng" but as long as you are choosing the tracks on the fly depending on what the crowd wants that is OK. That said I will stick to FinalScratch

mixing using turntables is like an art. the technology is there to make it easier but the more you do that the less apealing it becomes.

came as furnature...can be easily mass produced but hand crafted is an art and more valuble.





if you advanced it a bit and used midi keyboard and maybe other stuff yes. that would be cool.

Re: is non-real-time mixing lame?

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Originally posted by bundantoh i want to try vinyl mixing in the future; i just dont have the resources. i wonder if the dancefloor would care if some guy walked in with a laptop and some audio equipment.

People really need to get over this vinyl thing. Do carpenters continue to use manual non-power tools or do they incorporate the use of powertools as things progress?

People go on about mixing songs and it's an art, where does the art come from, is it touching the vinyl, is that it? We're obsessed with vinyl touching? That's the artistic part? No, we like a nice good solid mix, clean mixing, good track selection, progression, flow, incorporating all aspects, whether it be CD, Vinyl, Laptop. I say fuck'em if they have a problem with it.

Re: Re: is non-real-time mixing lame?

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Originally posted by tw1tch People really need to get over this vinyl thing. Do carpenters continue to use manual non-power tools or do they incorporate the use of powertools as things progress? People go on about mixing songs and it's an art, where does the art come from, is it touching the vinyl, is that it? We're obsessed with vinyl touching? That's the artistic part? No, we like a nice good solid mix, clean mixing, good track selection, progression, flow, incorporating all aspects, whether it be CD, Vinyl, Laptop. I say fuck'em if they have a problem with it.

You gotta at least admit tho that vinyl looks cooler...which would you rather see, someone mixing vinyl doing some scratching here and there and backspins and shit, or someone behind a laptop (I hear you can do some cool mouse tricks )

Re: Re: is non-real-time mixing lame?

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Originally posted by tw1tch Do carpenters continue to use manual non-power tools or do they incorporate the use of powertools as things progress?

i think you will find top class carpenters who create things fully by hand recieve much more money for what they have created as people apreciate the time and effort put in alot more

Re: Re: Re: is non-real-time mixing lame?

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Originally posted by dukes i think you will find top class carpenters who create things fully by hand recieve much more money for what they have created as people apreciate the time and effort put in alot more

one of the most intelligent things ive heard all day

I saw BT do a laptop symphony this last weekend. It sounded great til the power went out. Then he began using turntables when the power came back on.

your going to have one tough time getting a first gig though... G&D, BT & PVD have already made a huge name for themselves so comparing them to amatueres looking for gigs is kind of nieve. I'm not putting it down bro... but your going to have a really tough time findiing someone who will give u a chance.

I think most of u missed the question.

Mixing on software/laptop is fine as long as it's real time! Like a 60 min mix shouldn't take you 2 hours to do!

PVD and Josh Gabriel are both laptop wizards......
adn PVD technical skills are top notch.. FS and all sweet

quote:

Originally posted by dartman josh gabriel uses a powerbook, i think BT uses a laptop too. if you're good at it go for it, i say. if you can make people move their feet, rock on. i'm sure that there are going to be plenty of people that are gonna bitch about you using a laptop but whatever...... its 2004. btw.... i have never used Acid Pro so i dont really know what you do with it, but if you are talking about making a cd ahead of time and just playing a mix cd in a club, thats lame. big time

Josh Gabriel and BT may use laptops, but they still mix tracks together real-time, not to mention live remixing.

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Originally posted by BeatSMiTH I think most of u missed the question. Mixing on software/laptop is fine as long as it's real time! Like a 60 min mix shouldn't take you 2 hours to do!

I think *everyone* missed the question! The point bundantoh was making was about mix CD's, like Clubber's Guide to Ibiza from MoS, Gatecrasher Wet etc. etc. Not about creating a mix at home and then replaying it in a club!

Most, if not all compilation CD's these days are mixed with Pro-tools. This allows you to import songs as WAV, AIFF of whatever and mix them in a similar way to how a sequencer allows samples to be layered over each other. You can timestretch the songs (I believe) rather thanpitching them, so that they hold their original key but change speed, and obviously because its done in a studio and not mixed live, its always a perfect mix (no trainwrecks etc). So if the latest Ministry Trance Nation CD claims to be mixed by Ferry or whoever, its actually a load of crap. He certainly hasn't stood behind a pair of Technics and mixed it live from vinyl, anyway. It was actually done by some studio guy (look for the name Dave Turner at Tape to Tape - he always appears in compilations. I reckon he's the Pro-tools guru that churns out these things!).

This other benefit of doing it this way (for the big clubs at least, not neccessarily for the listener) is that they can edit songs. You can't mix a radio edit, cos there's just not enough intro or leadout to get a decent length of mix. Instead, they get the full length club versions and chop out a section of the middle. In this way, they can squeeze 25 or more tracks into 80 mins without having to mix in the middle of a breakdown or something.

Personally, I don't really like this way of doing things. I would prefer mix CD's to have actually been mixed live by someone - it gives it more feeling. Anyone can sit in front of a computer and drag and drop tunes until they get a perfect mix. But, I understand that these companies want to make money, and they wouldn't do if their CD's were full of dodgy mixes and trainwrecks.

Nobody plays a pre-recorded mix in a club unless they are a complete dickhead. There's just no point, anyone can press play on a goddamn CD player and leave it for an hour. Besides, there would be no-one to read the crowd and play what the crowd wants.

quote:

Originally posted by Nou All the Global Underground CD's are mixed with Pro-Tools now. The first three wernt tho. I think.

are they really?

some of the GUs were mixed live... but some are done in studios.


check the booklets of the GU cd, it will say something like this:
"mixed by ___________ at deep level studios using: logic audio platinum/sonic foundry sound forge. korg 1212. io sound card. yamaha 03D digital mixing desk. tascam da20 mk. d.a.t. machine. technics sl1210mk2 turntables."


or they have a note saying that the tracks were selected by the dj to bring the same kind of flavor that was at the venue when he originally spinned, and then these were mixed and digitally mastered elsewhere.

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Originally posted by DJTJ So if the latest Ministry Trance Nation CD claims to be mixed by Ferry or whoever, its actually a load of crap. He certainly hasn't stood behind a pair of Technics and mixed it live from vinyl, anyway. It was actually done by some studio guy

Having been working in the music business for some time, your post isnt entirely accurate....

Pro tools is used yes.
You will find the Dj named on the disc will actually have mixed live at some point.

What normally happens is they will record a whole mix (normally several mixes) onto pro tools
-this enables them to edit (as you rightly said) chunks of songs out in order to make the best use of the cds size.
But it also enables them to edit out any bad mixes- you can cut a chunk out and redo it then splice the two together.

The other reason for the extensive use of pro tools, is because most compliations are bang up to date- and as such, the tracklisting is subject to change at the last minute- the mix may have been done, but maybe someones publisher refuses permission for the track to be on the compilation- so that whole track would have to be cut out. Maybe a sample doesnt get cleared, or some other track appears the day before mixing that will be huge- and they want to substitute it onto the compilation.

Can be done for a whole variety of reasons ,but its not out of sheer laziness
- the music business is more intense than ever- especially as dance isnt selling too well at the mo- so any additional tools at their disposal will be used.
But normally you will find that at some point the dj named will have come in and mixed-

quote:

Originally posted by Freak Having been working in the music business for some time, your post isnt entirely accurate....

Fair enough. It was partly (educated??) guesswork though, so I'm not surprised it wasn't spot on.

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You will find the Dj named on the disc will actually have mixed live at some point.

They certainly haven't mixed it from vinyl... I know studio mastering tools and such are good, especially professional ones, but you can easily tell if something is recorded from vinyl - you will get clicks, pops and high-frequency noise. And these CDs definitely aren't recorded from vinyl. I suppose they could mix them off CD...

quote:

But it also enables them to edit out any bad mixes- you can cut a chunk out and redo it then splice the two together.

Personally, I think this is just as bad a cheat as not doing any of it live... Part of the fun/irritation (delete as appropriate) of recording a live mix for a CD is getting to the last mix and it not sounding good, and starting again... But then again, I'm not trying to make money out of it.

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Can be done for a whole variety of reasons ,but its not out of sheer laziness

I never suggested it was to do with laziness!

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But normally you will find that at some point the dj named will have come in and mixed-

My personal theory on this, after what you have said - and again, I'm prepared to be proved wrong - is that the named DJ does a mix, and then the pro-tools engineer copies the mix with the digital versions of the songs. By that I mean he uses the same cue points and fades bass, mids etc. at the same time as the named DJ did, thus producing an identical mix except that it is digital, so no vinyl noise, and perfect mixes.

quote:

Originally posted by DJTJ My personal theory on this, after what you have said - and again, I'm prepared to be proved wrong - is that the named DJ does a mix, and then the pro-tools engineer copies the mix with the digital versions of the songs. By that I mean he uses the same cue points and fades bass, mids etc. at the same time as the named DJ did, thus producing an identical mix except that it is digital, so no vinyl noise, and perfect mixes.

Ok, so what happens then if they can�t get a digital copy of a specific tune? If they record a copy of a vinyl to the computer it�s still going to have pops, crackles etc.

Yes mixes are recorded, edited, and re-recorded, but when you have a big name DJ doing it, then they are mixed by them.

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Originally posted by Spin Doctor [COLOR=#999999]Ok, so what happens then if they can�t get a digital copy of a specific tune?

They will be able to... They have to get the permission of the record label etc. to put the track on a compilation, and the label will at least have a digital copy that they use to press the vinyls from. The labels want as much promotion as possible, and they are of course more than happy to have a track on a MoS release, so would surely cooperate and give them the track on CD.

quote:

Originally posted by DJTJ They will be able to... They have to get the permission of the record label etc. to put the track on a compilation

They pay the label/owners for rights to put it on the compilation.

Remember 'Stardust- music sounds better'??

At the time- every single company putting out a compilation was fighting to get that track licensed onto their compilation..

Thomas and Alan (aka stardust) refused to let it go on any compilation- unless it appeared twice on it- at a cost of �10000 per appearance- so in otherwords, they got �20000 for each and every compilation it appeared on.

Check back your old mix albums from around that time- its on there twice on all of them- normally once on each disc on a 2 disc complation (as most are)


As most vinyl on compilations is new and upfront, they tend to be pretty good condition too- avoiding most pops and clicks, which can be cleaned up in the mastering process anyway.

If you listen to mixes, it�s not at all hard to tell which have been digitally mixed, and which have been done by DJs. They just get brand new copies of vinyl, which if treated well won�t sound as bad as you make out.

I by far prefer my mixes put together on real turntables. Theres just something about it, when a human is controlling the music with his hands and mind, in real time, that sounds so much better than a mix put together before hand on a computer. The best mixing I've ever heard in any mix has come from turntables, hands down.

I could swear i've heard vinyl crackly on one of the Godskitchen CD's. I Can't Remeber which one thou!

You guys might want to have a look at these links.

http://www.john00fleming.com/archiv...2002_diary.html

http://www.john00fleming.com/archiv...2003_diary.html

I don't have a problem with non-linear digital mixing/production, that's actually how I started out with my own mixing.

Basically I wanted to make myself some CDs to listen to while commuting to college, and it sounded like crap to have straight cuts from one trance track to the next, so I started looking around at audio programs. I used Mixmeister for all 13 of the digital mixes I produced. Doing non-linear productions will help to tune your ear for mixing, such as which tracks go well together, beatmatching, etc.

That said, I wouldn't expect to get any gigs playing a pre-recorded, pre-mixed set. That's exactly why I invested in turntables - because I wanted to take my mixing to the next level and be able to play out for an audience in a club.

If you are interested in checking out any of my digital mixes, all of the numbered mixes hosted here: http://music.globalbeatz.net/dj-mix...John/DJ%20Kibon were produced digitally. The others (including my new April 2004 compilation/demo) were produced in real-time on turntables.

I haven't touched Mixmeister since I produced Mix 13 last summer, for two reasons: a) I'm finding it fairly easy to get my hands on most of the new tracks that I want on vinyl, and it's become more difficult to find them all on mp3 and b) The quality of my real-time mixing on turntables is fairly close to what I was able to do with the digital mixing.

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