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-- question about delay

question about delay

Is there an easy way to route a delay signal (I'm using fruity 4.1 producers) so that the only output I get is the delayed portion of the signal, and not the original sound?

I may not be explaining myself well. Let's say a delayed soujnd looks like this, where 'A' is the original sound, and 'a' is the delay added to it:

A-a-a-a-A-a-a-a

What I want to be able to do is have just this:

-a-a-a- -a-a-a

I've figured out (I think) a pretty clunky way of doing it: record the sound both dry and wet. invert the phase of the dry sample, play with the wet, and they should cancel each other out, leaving only the delay line, right? That would be far too annoying to do (but if it's the only way...), so I want a simpler solution.

Help, anyone? Thanks in advance.

Wouldn't the wet only setting acheive that since its playing no original part of the sound? the -a-a-a--a-a-a pattern refers to only the delay playing right?

Sort of... but from what i can tell (or maybe it's just the plugins I use), the wet/dry mix setting still contains the original sample... wet/dry just refers to how loud the delay is, if that makes sense.

i think what you're talking about is a gated effect/gated delay.

or maybe you're talking about the ammount of echo's that cmoe back.

i know in reason you can set that (e.g. 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. etc. echos)

Use fruity delay 2 and turn the dry volume to 0.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ-Fuq Use fruity delay 2 and turn the dry volume to 0.

the simplest yet most effective response

Well I don't completely remember how the effects routing works in Fruity, but I'll explain how you'll use a delay usually.

Delay is a temporal effect, so you'll generally use it as an aux/fx send (as opposed to an insert send). I see lot's of people using delay on an insert. Of course everyone can use his own method, but that's not the usual way to use a delay. Use a send.

The effect is 100 % wet. You send an amount of the dry signal (with the send control) to the delay line, and that will output a 100 % wet(only effect) signal, that you will recuparate either in a aux/fx send return or in a dedicated channel.

Usually you'll use the send in post fader mode. This means that the level of the send follows the level of the actual channel (with delay or reverb for example, it would sound unnatural if you decrease the level of the dry source signal, and the reverb/delay just stays at the same amount. You want it to follow the source level).
If you just want the wet effect, use a prefader send (this means the send level is completely independent of the channel fader). Close the actual level of the source signal (not mute, some sends are affected by that) and increase the send to the delay line by the appropriate amount.

Look into the effects routing of Fruity to find a solution. Any decent music software should have insert send/return, and pre/post aux send/returns.

Wet refers to the effect on the signal.
Dry refers to the original signal with no effect.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Thy Well I don't completely remember how the effects routing works in Fruity, but I'll explain how you'll use a delay usually. Delay is a temporal effect, so you'll generally use it as an aux/fx send (as opposed to an insert send). I see lot's of people using delay on an insert. Of course everyone can use his own method, but that's not the usual way to use a delay. Use a send. The effect is 100 % wet. You send an amount of the dry signal (with the send control) to the delay line, and that will output a 100 % wet(only effect) signal, that you will recuparate either in a aux/fx send return or in a dedicated channel. Usually you'll use the send in post fader mode. This means that the level of the send follows the level of the actual channel (with delay or reverb for example, it would sound unnatural if you decrease the level of the dry source signal, and the reverb/delay just stays at the same amount. You want it to follow the source level). If you just want the wet effect, use a prefader send (this means the send level is completely independent of the channel fader). Close the actual level of the source signal (not mute, some sends are affected by that) and increase the send to the delay line by the appropriate amount. Look into the effects routing of Fruity to find a solution. Any decent music software should have insert send/return, and pre/post aux send/returns.

i dont really get it exactly thy, why is it better to connect your delay device to the send channels , and not connected it directly to the synth?*software that is*

of cource it saves up CPU, but is there any other advantage?

Well it's more like an unwritten rule in sound engineering.

Spectral (like EQ) and dynamic effects go on inserts, temporal effects go on auxes.

Mainly see it this way (few exceptions of course) :

Inserts, the name explains it, is in series with the signal path. Why spectral and dynamic effects on inserts? Think of it as effects that literally change the signal. Temporal effects on the other hand "add" something to the original signal. It's only normal you use a parallel path (aux) for that instead of a serial (insert) path.

It's also a convenience thing. Putting two signals together in an eq or a compressor, will yield completely different results as putting them in separately. Doing that with a delay or reverb won't (you'll basically put them in the same space). So for saving money and gear, you can use a compressor/eq/limiter/... per channel, but you only use a couple of reverbs/delays on auxes. Of course if you want to put every track in it's own space, using lots of reverbs/delays will be more versatile, but more expensive too, and generally avoided.

Software seemingly changes all that, but you must see it as a continuation of the old analog days. I'm sorry to say, and I don't want to blame any of you, but most home studio producers have no idea what half of the terms and features of their gear mean and do. They haven't got all the history behind it.
Nowadays with computers, I see lots of people putting a reverb or delay (or both) on every separate channel via inserts. And then they start to ask for functions like freeze, because their comp can't handle it anymore. My advice, unless you have a very good reason to, keep it working the old way. Spectral and dynamic effects on inserts, temporal effects on auxes. Will save you much trouble, and the result is usually the same, for less cost (monetary, or cpu power).

I generally use delays and reverbs as inserts, as that way i don't run into any problems with changing a reverb send, and finding out it's fucking up some other sound. This way, sure, I treat my CPU like an all-you-can-eat buffet, but it gives me more control.

Still... from the responses here, it doesn't seem like there's a simple way to do what I want to do. That's annoying..... wait..... I think I may have just thought of a way. I'm going to have to learn synthEdit to do it, though... I think it would be possible, with the level of customization available in that thing, to route the signal as I want to, and just create a custom delay effect.

Hmm.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ-Fuq Use fruity delay 2 and turn the dry volume to 0.

quote:

Originally posted by kewlness the simplest yet most effective response

Except that doesn't work. All that means is that you've turned up the mix of the effect--you're hearing 100% of the effect, which still includes the original signal. I want the original signal gone.

quote:

Originally posted by enferno i think what you're talking about is a gated effect/gated delay. or maybe you're talking about the ammount of echo's that cmoe back. i know in reason you can set that (e.g. 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. etc. echos)

Neither, actually.

When you use a delay effect, basically what happens is that the plugin/hardware adds extra information to the original audio. what I want to do is get the extra information without the original signal--be able to manipulate them, mix them in and out, etc, independent of each other.

quote:

Originally posted by skytribe Except that doesn't work. All that means is that you've turned up the mix of the effect--you're hearing 100% of the effect, which still includes the original signal. I want the original signal gone.

It does work.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Thy Well it's more like an unwritten rule in sound engineering. Spectral (like EQ) and dynamic effects go on inserts, temporal effects go on auxes. Mainly see it this way (few exceptions of course) : Inserts, the name explains it, is in series with the signal path. Why spectral and dynamic effects on inserts? Think of it as effects that literally change the signal. Temporal effects on the other hand "add" something to the original signal. It's only normal you use a parallel path (aux) for that instead of a serial (insert) path. It's also a convenience thing. Putting two signals together in an eq or a compressor, will yield completely different results as putting them in separately. Doing that with a delay or reverb won't (you'll basically put them in the same space). So for saving money and gear, you can use a compressor/eq/limiter/... per channel, but you only use a couple of reverbs/delays on auxes. Of course if you want to put every track in it's own space, using lots of reverbs/delays will be more versatile, but more expensive too, and generally avoided. Software seemingly changes all that, but you must see it as a continuation of the old analog days. I'm sorry to say, and I don't want to blame any of you, but most home studio producers have no idea what half of the terms and features of their gear mean and do. They haven't got all the history behind it. Nowadays with computers, I see lots of people putting a reverb or delay (or both) on every separate channel via inserts. And then they start to ask for functions like freeze, because their comp can't handle it anymore. My advice, unless you have a very good reason to, keep it working the old way. Spectral and dynamic effects on inserts, temporal effects on auxes. Will save you much trouble, and the result is usually the same, for less cost (monetary, or cpu power).

ok tnx , though in reason it seems the delay and reverbs never eat alot of cpu, but i could be wrong

so if i put a delay or reverb in the send channels of a mixer, do i set the dry wet of them to 100? and adjust the rest with the send ?

Re: question about delay

quote:

Originally posted by skytribe I may not be explaining myself well. Let's say a delayed soujnd looks like this, where 'A' is the original sound, and 'a' is the delay added to it: A-a-a-a-A-a-a-a What I want to be able to do is have just this: -a-a-a- -a-a-a

Can't you do this by creating another instance of that synth and with another delay unit, play the orignal note one key later, and set it so it only delays twice:

O-A-a-a-O-A-a-a

(where "O" if for nothing playing)

That's pretty simple, no?

quote:

Originally posted by Massive84 ok tnx , though in reason it seems the delay and reverbs never eat alot of cpu, but i could be wrong so if i put a delay or reverb in the send channels of a mixer, do i set the dry wet of them to 100? and adjust the rest with the send ?

In a normal situation you adjust how much signal you send to the effect with the send control (so you can send several instruments to the same effect, you make the mix that you send to the effect with the send level). If used on sends, the effect should be 100%. That 100% wet effect normally gets returned either in a separate aux return input, or (more often with hardware) into dedicated channels (more control, usually the aux return is just a level fader, if you return it into a channel you can EQ it, and send it to another effect again if you wish). It's with that return that you make the dry/wet balance.

Now I know that some software (like Cubase SX 1 for instance) don't have the dedicated return options. In that case the dry/wet balance should be made with the send levels also.

About reverbs and delays, the quality of those effects is usually proportional to the cpu power they use (and I'm afraid for Reason that is true also, the effects are one of the weak points of that software). It is said often, and I must agree, that even the best software reverbs cannot come close to even an average hardware reverb. Just because of that reason : power. A little exception are those new convolution reverbs, but either they eat up A LOT of cpu power, or they induce a massive delay.

You can always use these T steps! (1/4T or 1/8T or 1/16T) gives different delay bounce.

quote:

Originally posted by Sebraa You can always use these T steps! (1/4T or 1/8T or 1/16T) gives different delay bounce.

Whats the differences of 1/4 1/4T , 1/8 1/8T. whats the meaning of T presents?



THy- so the best is to use efx on send channel and compressor, gate on inserts??

I uses this way on my cubsaxe SX1. right click on the track and choose duplicate track. on the duplicated track, i put insert of delay reverb etc to the max. then with the original source set at the volume of sound and then I will adjust my delay, reverb on the COPY duplicated track and adjsuting the volume via channel fader. Is that advisable? My frenz told me that it does take up much of CPU usage. is that so?

Well, frankly there's no ABSOLUTE right or wrong. But the way I mentioned is the common method.
Of course if you want to use a different delay time and different reverb settings for every individual channel, then inserts are the best option, but it doesn't happen very much.

Usually, you'll have two or three delays and reverbs (usually one short, one medium and a long) that are common for the whole mix.
If that's the case, then yes your method is very hard on the cpu. Let's say you have 24 tracks, which you all want to delay and reverberate (it's an example). In your case you'll have 24 delays and 24 reverbs. Your cpu will not be happy.
Let's say you only need those three settings from above (short, medium, long, both for reverb and delay). With aux sends, you'll only need 3 delays and 3 reverbs... Much less strain.

I gotta say, I prefer the method of FX sends used in SX 2, but the SX 1 method is still decent.
First you need to decide which effects you'll use as sends. There's a dedicated window (VST sends I think) where you put effects in as send destinations. For example let's say you "install" a reverb in slot one and a delay in slot two.
You have an audio track, which you want to put the reverb on. You go to the sends panel of that channel, and select the reverb in one of its slots (if you didn't put any effect in the VST sends window, you won't be able to select an effect to send to). Usually, reverb/delay sends are post fader. Then you adjust with the slider (or knob, depending on the view) how much of the signal you want to send to the effect (hence the name send). In SX 1 you have an "automatic" return level, meaning you have to dose with your send level how much effect you want. With hardware (or with FX channels in SX2) usually your return level has another level so you can still adjust the dry/wet balance further.

About the T and D's in measures, they influence on length. Music theory is not my forte, so someone will probably correct me on this but
D means dotted, and indicates that the time of the note is one and a half time the length of the note without the dot (so a 1/4dotted note lasts 1/4 + 1/8 = basically 3/8 notes long). You can have consecutive dots, and then I think each dot adds half the length of the previous dot. A dot makes the relative of a note longer.

Triplets... The term triplet means a group of three notes played in the space of two: for example, an eight note triplet would last as long as two "normal" eight notes.

Usually when you use straight times on a delay, it can sound mechanic (each delay on a beat for example). Dotted lengths and triplets can give a different feel. Just try to use a simple sound you send to a delay and try the different options. You'll hear the difference.

Good grief! Thanks. Now I understand that clearly!

quote:

Originally posted by skytribe Except that doesn't work. All that means is that you've turned up the mix of the effect--you're hearing 100% of the effect, which still includes the original signal. I want the original signal gone.

I really don't know what you are talking.. it clearly works.. make sure you've turned down the DRY to zero and that it is set to a particular fx channel

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