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-- For all u Israel 'haters'...

For all u Israel 'haters'...

hope you're watching "jenin- massacring truth" on TV right now- on Global, 9-10pm. I'm taping it -Nat (using Graham's acct)

Yup I watched it,and I thought it was great and sad at the same time.

Iam glad the truth is slowly coming out and the world is begining to see what Isreal is all about.

Graham is it possible for you to host the video somewhere??I would love to see it again.

it smells like an e-fight

quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer Yup I watched it,and I thought it was great and sad at the same time. Iam glad the truth is slowly coming out and the world is begining to see what Isreal is all about. Graham is it possible for you to host the video somewhere??I would love to see it again.

wel i havnt watched it but i could make a movie on what italy is all about and just show pictures of naked women..people would think its a big fuck fest..but it isn what italy is all about...just making conversation..moral: dont believe everything u hear on television

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Originally posted by Vivid Boy wel i havnt watched it but i could make a movie on what italy is all about and just show pictures of naked women..people would think its a big fuck fest..but it isn what italy is all about...just making conversation..moral: dont believe everything u hear on television

Maybe I should've been more clear here,Iam against the Isreali government and its actions.Iam sure Isreal would be a great place without its current government.Also I dont believe everything I see on tv.I've known before Jenin long before I saw this program.
I dont thing the program was anti-semetic or biased. I think It is good to see programs like that besides CNN sometimes.

good cause im a bit anti israeli as well...i mean ok fine palestenians are a bit crazy crazy for doing all these suicide bombings...but lets remember theyre at war and they dont have a military i mean israelis are killing off these palestenians too...theyre just using bullets...i duno i could be talking out my ass..i dont know enuff on the subject to be making any statements...

quote:

Originally posted by Vivid Boy good cause im a bit anti israeli as well...i mean ok fine palestenians are a bit crazy crazy for doing all these suicide bombings...but lets remember theyre at war and they dont have a military i mean israelis are killing off these palestenians too...theyre just using bullets...i duno i could be talking out my ass..i dont know enuff on the subject to be making any statements...

you are right,Isreal has one of the biggets and advanced army in the world after all they are kiss asses to the US so they get the best.
The Isreali aremy is 1000000X more powerful then the Palastinians.I think if Isreal thinks suicide bombing is unfair they should let Palastne have their own army they it'll be fair.

Well... there are alot of things that were well put together in this documentary, and many things that just utilized an "appeal to sympathy" fallacy.

jenin was truly a bad thing that happened, although there were not as many people as thought that were killed, it was still devastating.

In any event, after realizing this program was made by Martin Hamil, i knew i was in for another arab-villification program, like the joke of a documentary he made about the Concordia conflict. That film made the arab student council look like terrorists...claiming they wanted "israel destroyed" even though nobody on that film or any publication of what they said even implied that.

So back to the tpic at hand. The documentary did make its point though (as specified and selective as it was). It appealed to much sympathy (like the woman who lost her IDF soldier husband) and inter-lacing that with terrorist bus attacks inside israel. He compared many of the atrocities of other nations like Serbia, American sponsored NATO, America itself and the Hutu's, but failed to recognize that america also provides much of israel's military aid that ends up killing many palestinians. Not once, did he interview in depth what a victim of the Jenin event went through. Much of the documentary focused on the saddened state of an ISraeli soldier who lost 14 of his sioldier frinds that day.

Hamil did however succeessfully confront many journalists who used the words "massacre" and "genocide", but made it look as thoiugh they themselves said it by Highlighting these words in their articles. He didnt even look at the context of the sentence that was written. I carefully read those statements, and many of them were CLAIMS of massacres by palestinians.

But i think he did get his point across by illustrating the stigmatization this created.

Another problem I had was the "EXPERT" Alan Dershowitz who had alot to say. He has been proven by Norman Finklestein himself that many sections of the book that he wrote called "The Case for Israel" was plagiarized. So him as an expert was kinda funny. He utlized the concept of Anti-semetism to reinforce his argument that Europe in a way "wanted" to beleive ISrael is an Evil nation.

What bothered me about this documentary was the fact that Hamil didnt recognize that it was a devastating event, regardless of whether the media was wrong about their word choice and usage. Like most reporters, he tired to take an objective point of view, but it was hardly that when he interlaced it with mostly israeli suffering. If you are going to look at this event objectively, dont bring personal opinion and subjective matter into this.

I wont even comment about the "fatwa" that the man described to show that islamic people and arabs use fear to even cartoonists!

But he made his point well, jenin was not a "massacre". He didnt however discuss the innocents and combatant ratio's in depth.. which i think deserves the most attention when dealing with this topic.

I feel like diginut now.. i should stop rambling

let's not start another Israeli VS Pali thread pls.. i'm really getting sick of them. They solve nothing.


edit: lol too late.. carry on!!

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King Well... there are alot of things that were well put together in this documentary, and many things that just utilized an "appeal to sympathy" fallacy. jenin was truly a bad thing that happened, although there were not as many people as thought that were killed, it was still devastating. In any event, after realizing this program was made by Martin Hamil, i knew i was in for another arab-villification program, like the joke of a documentary he made about the Concordia conflict. That film made the arab student council look like terrorists...claiming they wanted "israel destroyed" even though nobody on that film or any publication of what they said even implied that. So back to the tpic at hand. The documentary did make its point though (as specified and selective as it was). It appealed to much sympathy (like the woman who lost her IDF soldier husband) and inter-lacing that with terrorist bus attacks inside israel. He compared many of the atrocities of other nations like Serbia, American sponsored NATO, America itself and the Hutu's, but failed to recognize that america also provides much of israel's military aid that ends up killing many palestinians. Not once, did he interview in depth what a victim of the Jenin event went through. Much of the documentary focused on the saddened state of an ISraeli soldier who lost 14 of his sioldier frinds that day. Hamil did however succeessfully confront many journalists who used the words "massacre" and "genocide", but made it look as thoiugh they themselves said it by Highlighting these words in their articles. He didnt even look at the context of the sentence that was written. I carefully read those statements, and many of them were CLAIMS of massacres by palestinians. But i think he did get his point across by illustrating the stigmatization this created. Another problem I had was the "EXPERT" Alan Dershowitz who had alot to say. He has been proven by Norman Finklestein himself that many sections of the book that he wrote called "The Case for Israel" was plagiarized. So him as an expert was kinda funny. He utlized the concept of Anti-semetism to reinforce his argument that Europe in a way "wanted" to beleive ISrael is an Evil nation. What bothered me about this documentary was the fact that Hamil didnt recognize that it was a devastating event, regardless of whether the media was wrong about their word choice and usage. Like most reporters, he tired to take an objective point of view, but it was hardly that when he interlaced it with mostly israeli suffering. If you are going to look at this event objectively, dont bring personal opinion and subjective matter into this. I wont even comment about the "fatwa" that the man described to show that islamic people and arabs use fear to even cartoonists! But he made his point well, jenin was not a "massacre". He didnt however discuss the innocents and combatant ratio's in depth.. which i think deserves the most attention when dealing with this topic. I feel like diginut now.. i should stop rambling

this is the quiet before the storm .. an arsenal of DigiNut rebuttal awaits you!

Perhaps only those who saw the show should reply to this thread... cuz then they will have a clue as to what they are commenting on.

I'm beginning to wonder if u were watching the same show I was, Navid. That show was very pro-Israel's side of the situation, FOR ONCE (if you wanna call it that), yet u sit here and talk as if it were a show exploiting Israel's 'brutal actions'.

The show's focus was how the media blatantly twisted the truth and compared the incident in Jenin to some of the worst war crimes in world history, when in fact it was nowhere near that status. It also exposed how the Palestinians grossly exaggerated numbers, faked funerals (using live people), dug up decomposed old bones to insinuate these were new deaths, etc...

It also showed the lack of the media's willingness to retract their statements once it was shown there was no genocide committed. It showed the power of the media's 1st labelling comment, "Jenin Massacre". It showed the continuance & promotion of the 'blood libel' myth in Arab societies. It showed that it was not only acceptible to show a cartoon of Sharon eating a Palestinian baby (& then have it win cartoon of the year) and then claim that it is not an anti-Jewish or anti-Israel comic, but an anti-Sharon comment. (
Stop twisting this thread to discuss something it was never about. Stick to the facts & the topic at hand.

To anyone whom I've offended for starting a political thread in our forum, my apologies. Again, I'm not trying to stir up a 15 pg thread on the subject on how 'Israel is the root of all evil' (I've seen way to many of those already and they're old). I just wanted to point out the show was on and to discuss the matters of the show, which was to show the other side of things.

At least I'm not the only one who thinks this is true... germany is even starting a summit on it.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/421756.html

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Now we both know that's not true, Kaveh - his book was shown to have a few minor mistakes in it but everything was properly sourced in the proper format, so it was by no means plagiarized. I am not arguing for or against the content of that book, but it was certainly not a plagiarism like Finkelstein implied in his lengthy but unsubstantiated diatribe of Dershowitz.

LOOOOOL.. a "few minor mistakes"!

quote:

Did Alan Dershowitz Lift Source Material from a Colossal Fraud? By Abu Spinoza* Professor Norman Finkelstein has uncovered a pattern of lifting of source materials in Alan Dershowitz�s recent book, The Case for Israel. According to Finkelstein, these patterns suggest either scandalous scholarship or plagiarism or both. What is quite interesting is that Dershowitz, who is professor at Harvard Law School, has relied on Joan Peter�s well-known fraud, From Time Immemorial. It was Finkelstein, professor at DePaul University in Chicago, who had first discovered and exposed Peters� hoax when he was a graduate student at Princeton. He is familiar with Peters' colossal fraud. He is thus able to pinpoint and locate the quotes. Finkelstein has published a table that list some 20 quotations that Dershowtiz appeared to have appropriated from Peters� book, which is regarded by serious academics as a hoax aimed at propagating the discredited Israeli claim that Palestine was a land without a people. Alan Dershowtiz is one of most well known lawyers in the United States. He is famed for his role in O.J. Simpson case. He is also a noted apologist for Israel�s brutality and occupation. Dershowitz is known to have urged the Israeli government to destroy Palestinian villages in response to terror attacks. This is a form of collective punishment at odds with international law and morality. Finkelstein�s findings have already generated some interest in the media. In a Democracy Now program on Dershowitz�s book, Finkelstein said, �Mr. Dershowitz has concocted a fraud. In fact Mr. Dershowitz has concocted a fraud which amazingly in large parts he plagiarized from another fraud.� Alexander Cockburn, a columnist for The Nation, has written an article on it. Harvard University�s student newspaper, The Crimson, has a story on Dershowitz�s alleged plagiarism. In a letter to the editor of The Crimison, Dershowtiz has subsequently denied these charges and said, �I am proud of my book. I did nothing even arguably wrong.� Finkelstein has replied to Dershowitz's Letter in The Crimson. It remains to be seen whether the mainstream media will follow-up on these serious allegations of scandalous scholarship or plagiarism against a flamboyant Harvard law professor. Finkelstein�s charges ought to be taken seriously. He is the author of four books: The Holocaust Industry, Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict, A Nation on Trial, and The Rise and Fall of Palestine. As a scholar, Finkelstein has investigated and exposed the shoddy scholarship of Joan Peters, Daniel Goldhagen, and Michael Ore among others. His website, www.normanfinkelstein.com, contains a wealth of material on Israel-Palestine conflict and the Goldhagen Affair. Updated coverage of the Dershowtiz affair is available on his wepage under the title of Dershowitz hoax. Harvard University and its law school itself ought to initiate a full investigation of what appears to be a serious lapse in scholarly standard and judgment on the part of professor Alan Dershowitz. It is hoped that world's most prestigious university will uphold generally accepted scholarly standards.

http://www.pressaction.com/pablog/archives/001042.html

Finklesteins claims HAVE been SUBSTANTIATED...click the link, he points them out.

There are a TON of other links I could provide you with that validates Finklesteins points...but I hope you getthe picture

Finklestein sounds like a crackpot, sorry. Classic example of a 'self-hating Jew'.
Maybe u should read a contrary article about him, posted on his own site (and yes, I know it's origin site).
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/id109.htm

Anyone who's willing to propogate so-called 'Holocaust Industry' phrase or theory has some serious issues.... Any speck of possible credibility goes out the window right there, Kaveh.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King Finklesteins claims HAVE been SUBSTANTIATED...click the link, he points them out.

You're absolutely right, his claims about errors in Dershowitz's book have indeed been substantiated. But the claims that were substantiated were those of minor typographical errors, and/or material that was fallacious or incorrect in the source (however, the material was still sourced 100% correctly, even if it was not correct in the source). His claims about the book being a "fraud plagiarized from another fraud", however, are at best a leap in logic and a leap of faith - but more like agendized grandstanding.

quote:

Originally posted by tatgirl You're welcome to come over and watch it too, Aaron.

I'd love to, once I get to Toronto. I didn't even know about this until I'd already missed it. Thanks for the offer!

It's actually quite funny to see this thread in here, after very recently seeing another hot button thread in the political forum about the "anniversary" of the "massacre" in Jenin - many are aware of how it was grossly exaggerated (even fabricated in some cases), no matter how truly tragic the reality was underneath all the propaganda.

quote:

Originally posted by tatgirl Finklestein sounds like a crackpot, sorry. Classic example of a 'self-hating Jew'. Maybe u should read a contrary article about him, posted on his own site (and yes, I know it's origin site). http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/id109.htm Anyone who's willing to propogate so-called 'Holocaust Industry' phrase or theory has some serious issues.... Any speck of possible credibility goes out the window right there, Kaveh.

Ive actually heard the man speak and met him. He has always been labelled as a "self-hating jew" for cirticizing the nature of israels birth and examining how the halcaucost has been exploited, which it has to many extents.

He is not an denier of the halocaust at all and has been greatly affected by it, seeing that his parents were survuivors of a concentration camp.

With repsect to his book, i have it but havent read it yet. Nat, you shouldnt judge a book by its cover!

He actually jokes around about how many times jews have called him a "self-hating jew"... its becoming a childish name calling tactic.

I think both sides should (P&I) battle it on the playstation 2 playing FIFA. (both loses, Italy wins again!)

everyone should listen to the Dali Lama, violence is not the answer.

quote:

Originally posted by Cuzo I think both sides should (P&I) battle it on the playstation 2 playing FIFA. (both loses, Italy wins again!) everyone should listen to the Dali Lama, violence is not the answer.

hey did you go see the Dalai Lama on sunday???

quote:

Originally posted by drgoodvibe hey did you go see the Dalai Lama on sunday???

No, unfortantely I had to work (gets in the ways of everything important) but I've totally been caught in the Dali-fever! Last night on the Vision network (first time I've ever even heard of it) they're was a very long interview with his holiness himself, very interesting, he answers each q with an interesting story. He also said something very interesting ....he said its possible for a woman Dali-Lama. Now thats progressive or what?

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