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Are DJ's Musicians?

So someone starts taking about musicians and instruments...Are DJ's the new-age Musicians? I was shit stiring in my reply, calling myself a muso and I "play" my turntables and mixer. A quick look on www.dictionary.com under Instrument and found the following

"Music. A device for playing or producing music"

A musician is classed as

"someone who plays a musical instrument (as a profession)".

What are your thoughts? Are we musos, or learning/wanting to be muso (just like a guy in a band with mates who gets the odd gig here and there) or are we just "techno" heads wasting time and money.

Should we hold our heads up high to the non clubbers when we say we DJ, or are we really below that of a traditional band?

What are all your thoughts?

Thanks for your time,
--djway

No, Djs are just advanced jukeboxes.

some play better stuff than the other boxes, some are justed outdated... poor bastards

Producing is where it all lies

imho, if u produce the tracks urself then yes u could call urself a musician.......but if u only ever dj other ppl's tracks, then a musician u ain't.....

honestly?

hell no. i think dj's are the bottom of the barrel on the music spectrum. dont have misconceptions of what a dj does. he plays others' music. he does not make music. the only musical ability a dj may apply is the use of harmonics. turntabilism may be diff story however, as thats a craft where turntables are used as instruments - to make their own music/sounds.

dj's, new-age musicians? i think not. producers, yes. they're making use of advanced technologies to create music, wandering from traditional instruments. learn to play an instrument, a guitar, the piano, fuk even the didgeridoo. u'll understand and appreciate how much time n effort goes in learning that instrument n really, what i means to be a muso if u choose to write ur own music.

p.s. according to ur definition, anybody who knows how to operate a cd player would also be a musician, no?

But also think about this, to me SOME people who produce electronic music cannot be regarded as real musicians.

Hell you play a few notes on the keyboard and arrange, loops it, make it into different sounds and make the song. That isn't real music making... though it's very fun.

People say hey look at those guitars in this track, he must he some real skill.. sorry but those are done on the keyboard. And the keyboard doesn't require that much skill as you can see the key points your pressing so you can change them at anytime.

quote:

Originally posted by Psygnosis But also think about this, people who produce electronic music cannot be regarded as real musicians. Hell you play a few notes on the keyboard and arrange, loops it, make it into different sounds and make the song. That isn't real music making... though it's very fun

electronic music isnt traditional music however. its about the sounds and noises that traditional instruments arent able to emulate. i guess in a sense, its more about sound engineering, but nevertheless its still creating music. what differntiates, a good producer to a bad one though, is not only the innovation of sounds but of musical knowledge that he applies.

quote:

Originally posted by Psygnosis People say hey look at those guitars in this track, he must he some real skill.. sorry but those are done on the keyboard. And the keyboard doesn't require that much skill as you can see the key points your pressing so you can change them at anytime.

there are so many keys on a keyboard. if your song is in a certain key, you'll need to know what keys are in that key to press so that your melody sounds harmonious, whether it be thru classical training or havin a good ear.

don't forget that arrangement also = composition.
*yawn* i'm tired, i'll elaborate later if somebody doesnt beat me to it

Check This Out

An awesome tune. Produced on a computer.

quote:

Originally posted by JayKuE electronic music isnt traditional music however. its about the sounds and noises that traditional instruments arent able to emulate. i guess in a sense, its more about sound engineering, but nevertheless its still creating music. what differntiates, a good producer to a bad one though, is not only the innovation of sounds but of musical knowledge that he applies. there are so many keys on a keyboard. if your song is in a certain key, you'll need to know what keys are in that key to press so that your melody sounds harmonious, whether it be thru classical training or havin a good ear. don't forget that arrangement also = composition. *yawn* i'm tired, i'll elaborate later if somebody doesnt beat me to it

I know what you mean but remember that it's not done in a continuous production. You actually spend months on your song to actually make it harmonious. Classical training or even having a good ear doesn't actually compensate the difference of quality between each other. You know if you actually have had extensive piano lessons, your ideas will be better and your songs will be better constructed compared to the person with the good ear, bad ear, infected ear i dunno.

In your mind you get these wicked ideas for trance, but if you already have a piano background, you can easily memorise those and actually play them but if you don't you still get those ideas but you won't be able to play them on the computer, only in your head.

btw anyone seen this

sounds

haha whoever made it is a genius

I don't think DJ's are musicians either, glad we agree. Please keep on talking about the production of digital v analog.

Thing is in the discussion(of DJ's are musicians), I said to them, each mix make, I mix tracks via EQ, BPM and pitch. The mix hasn't just happened, I've taken time to check the pitch, key and compitisiton of the track. It's not a random process. I'm checking levels elements and trying to blend the tracks together to create a sound that allows the two tracks to sound as one, then slowly remove one of them to take it back to one track again. I operate my equipment at a level that has taken years of training to reach (don't forget this is trying to shit stir them into believing i am a musician) the level I'm at. Based on ^ they now think I am a musician, they had no come back and accepted it.

To you all, would djing different styles of music (ala techno), make the DJ more of a musician? Someone like Derek Carter mixing a new track every min, leaving the track in for 3 mins, with two tracks over the top, plus wobbling the dex.....would that not be classed as creating your own music? It's a combintion of 3 records he chose to put out a certain sound.

--djway_

quote:

Originally posted by Huebor Check This Out An awesome tune. Produced on a computer.

I also know of a traditional band without a drummer doing all their drums digitally. Sounds awesome

--djway

quote:

Originally posted by Psygnosis I know what you mean but remember that it's not done in a continuous production. You actually spend months on your song to actually make it harmonious. Classical training or even having a good ear doesn't actually compensate the difference of quality between each other. You know if you actually have had extensive piano lessons, your ideas will be better and your songs will be better constructed compared to the person with the good ear, bad ear, infected ear i dunno.

eh? i think u confused my statement of associating live instruments with being a muso. i merely stated that to say that learning how to play the piano/guitar whatever is a lot more difficult than learning to beatmatch and eq. somebody who plays an instrument but still plays covers aint a muso. ur a muso when u start chooning something thats urs, regardless of whether its live, or continuous.

quote:

Originally posted by Psygnosis In your mind you get these wicked ideas for trance, but if you already have a piano background, you can easily memorise those and actually play them but if you don't you still get those ideas but you won't be able to play them on the computer, only in your head.

yea you will. if you have a good ear, you can push all the keys until it sounds like what you have in ur head.

quote:

Originally posted by JayKuE yea you will. if you have a good ear, you can push all the keys until it sounds like what you have in ur head.

I agree that this happens

--djway

Actually, that's easier said than done. By the end you will have a total different result.

quote:

Originally posted by Psygnosis Actually, that's easier said than done. By the end you will have a total different result.

I've watched and heard the result (a few Liquid M melodies were created by screwing around like that).

--djway

quote:

Originally posted by djway I've watched and heard the result (a few Liquid M melodies were created by screwing around like that). --djway

Yeh but they are trained, the more you use the keyboard you actually learn how to use it better so Liquid M can easily do that. But a ordinary producer with no musical background that has just gotten into producing will find it VERY difficult. For me it was hard at the beginning but slowly gettin the hang of how to construct the ideas..

Soon you will have the knowledge on how to make remixes of your favourite songs by just listening to them rather than waiting for someone to contruct a MIDI. It all comes with time.

Again realise the fact that not everyone is the same, everyone has different skills and ideas so what is easy for someone is hard for you and vice versa.

Many people will produce for years and not even produce the quality of another individual who has produced for the same amount.

quote:

Originally posted by Psygnosis Yeh but they are trained, the more you use the keyboard you actually learn how to use it better so Liquid M can easily do that. But a ordinary producer with no musical background that has just gotten into producing will find it VERY difficult. For me it was hard at the beginning but slowly gettin the hang of how to construct the ideas.. Soon you will have the knowledge on how to make remixes of your favourite songs by just listening to them rather than waiting for someone to contruct a MIDI. It all comes with time. Again realise the fact that not everyone is the same, we all have different skills and ideas so what is easy for someone is hard for you and vice versa. Many people will produce for years and not even produce the quality of another individual who has produced for the same amount.

You've contradicted yourself (saying they are "trained" [which they are not FYI], then saying they time on a keyboard <> enhancement). Not that it really matters, as it's getting a tad off topic.

--djway

Let me put what you guys are saying into layman terms (correct me if im wrong!)

Your only a musician if you create new music...

Thats pretty much what you guys are saying right?

1) Doesnt that mean that people in classical orchestras playing beethoven or tchaikovsky are by your definiton not musicians? They are after all playing someone elses music - written and composed centuries ago by great composers.

2) How does this differ from a dj? Hes playing someone elses music and in fact by your previous definition he might be considered a greater musician because hes changing the music (no 2 dj sets are identical after all (even ones with the same tracklisting) with each dj doing ever so slightly differnet mixes, one could add an effect here or increase the length of the mix here, etc....) where as a classical orchestra practices so that their playing is identical each time with no change to the music.

3) Since when has the skill required to play an instrument ever been a definiton of a musician? Does learning how to play a double bass make you a better musician then someone who plays a classical guitar just because its harder to learn?

4) Since when has the quality of the music being produced/played defined if someone was a musician??? Fuck i mean Ringo Starr was considered a musician and you cant get much fucking worse for a drummer!!!


Im personally undecided on the issue, i can see points both way but really who gives a fuck!!!

Nice to see you posting Leigh . Glad to see someone else has sat down and considered the other side of the coin [Which is what was/is really confusing me.]

--djway

Thanks wade....

The fact of the matter is who really cares?? I find it incredibly funny though when people immediately jump up and start yelling that djs arent muso's then when you ask them to define their definition of a muso your able to show them that their definition doesnt really make any sense....

By the way this is not an attack on anyone on ta's beliefs, this is just something ive found when getting into this argument with non-dance music people... Its all in the definiton....

it really depends on what you classify as a musician. in the traditional sense, i guess dj's arent musicians, no. producers most certainly are musicians, but you would probably get the traditionalists saying that its not music, because its being produced with computers and hardware and stuff. which in my opinion is rubbish, because it still makes it music.

because society is evolving, things that used to be traditional, are changing, most definately for the better, and i think this is a case of that happening. DJs may play other peoples productions, but to a certain extent they are musicians, or maybe more so composers, as they certainly can structure sets to make the music sound better.

in the end, dj's are entertainers, and thats all that matters, isnt it?

Is an orchestral conductor a musician?

I reckon some of the techno DJ's come close...

but no

quote:

Originally posted by lethal Thanks wade.... The fact of the matter is who really cares?? I find it incredibly funny though when people immediately jump up and start yelling that djs arent muso's then when you ask them to define their definition of a muso your able to show them that their definition doesnt really make any sense.... By the way this is not an attack on anyone on ta's beliefs, this is just something ive found when getting into this argument with non-dance music people... Its all in the definiton....

I care, well, ok, I'm wanting to know what other people think (not coz I'm a sheep), just to know what the general consenus is on the issue. It's not really something I've even thought about till today, and well, the little discussion was over in under a min with them believe me, but I don't feel right with the term.

--djway_

I believe that you have to have musical talent to DJ, this is mainly the technical side of it, but also you need to have creative talent to put a good set together.
The main thing I think you have to have to be a musician and a DJ is passion and love of the music you are playing.

Is a singer a musician, is a DJ a musician..... I agree with Leigh does it really matter.

Well I believe that (good) DJ's posses some of the talent/understanding of music to be able to do what they do.. but I don't think DJ'n in it's self needed enought of it to qualify them as muscians..

In the context of Electronic Dance Music it is only the producers that can called themselves muscians (as well as composers). And they are only being musicans if they are A: Playing a keyboard on stage or B: Playing a keyboard in the studio as part of the recording process.

So I guess that make me a musican! hehe

quote:

Originally posted by Psygnosis But also think about this, to me SOME people who produce electronic music cannot be regarded as real musicians. Hell you play a few notes on the keyboard and arrange, loops it, make it into different sounds and make the song. That isn't real music making... though it's very fun. People say hey look at those guitars in this track, he must he some real skill.. sorry but those are done on the keyboard. And the keyboard doesn't require that much skill as you can see the key points your pressing so you can change them at anytime.

the very nature of electronic music allows for REAL music to be made in a simplified way.

playing a riff on your guitar VS making that same riff on a synth is still making REAL music. It takes more skill to learn how to play a guitar, yes, but at the end of the day you're still producing that same sound (and better because of fx and so on)

ive had the debate of electronic music production vs acoustical music production endless times - theres NO end to it!

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