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-- 808/909-drumsets by default in hardware?

808/909-drumsets by default in hardware?

How usual is it for hardware synths to also replicate classic drum machines like the 808 and 909 or to have their own banks of drum sounds? For instance my CS1x has several drum sets, including the 808 and 909. Is this a common feature? And how well do these sounds do in comparison to the original drum machines? Does this vary between hardware as well?

another useless thread
All dance-based sample synths/grooveboxes will have these onboard
Hey they are SAMPLES hmmmmm maybe they sound the same like the original.

I didn't know they were samples, thought it was kind of oscillation replication. With personal experience from only one hardware dance synth, I haven't had much to compare with, you know. I don't see threads to be useless if someone learns something from them. Of course everyone can check out stats for single sequencers, one at a time, to check up if they include drum banks, but a general idea is hard to get that way.

Np, just thought you'd know something more in 5 years of production.

cs1x is sample based so how could the reproduction be analog?
You need boxes like novation drumstation, jomox, er1 to have analog reproduction of the sounds. (of course you can do them with (virtual)analog synths too, like the virus, q, ...)
The main difference is that these synths produce the basic sounds (like a kick mostly a pitch enveloped sine-wave) instead of playback of the sample so you have full control over the parameters.

Okay. I should be ashamed of not knowing it was 100% sample-based. I'll dig out the blue paper manual and check it out if it's mentioned there, probably it is. Actually I kept on tracking for a very long time, and I actually used my CS1x mainly for just creating sample files for my tracking needs. Also, the Octamed tracker featured midi support. So when it comes to VST- and other software effects, hardware effects, true midi composing etc. I'm still very much a rookie reading my Future Music Magazines trying to learn a thing or two every now and then.

EDIT: "There's no physical-modelling technology used in the sound creation, just sample-based AWM sounds", writes Future Music in 1996.

know your synth

I dont know about your Yamaha.. but I have a Roland XV-5080, where I have heard ppl say it contain samples. After working with it, I have to say that its not really true. It contains basically presets or patches...
Each patch (or some may say sample)... wheather its a drum kick or snare, or saw lead, actually is made from wave forms (you have different to choose from square, sine, ect), and each have LFOs, evelopes, TVA filters. In addition, you can pretty much mess with every patch, disect it to its purest form and get an idea on how it was made using the wave forms. It also has many options to creating patches. In addition, you can layer them in many different ways to creating really fat sounds.
I believe you can get a lot out of your Yamaha CS1x, as you need to learn how to use post effects (perhaps external either from software or hardware) and eq to get the most out of it and its patches or samples.
For example, some of the kicks that are from 808 or 909 may sound kinda low or not good enough.. but when adding some compression and equing, they may sound better than pro (if thats possible).

omg, talking about bullshit
What are these patches : yeaaaaa 1 to 4 SAMPLES next to each other. XV is (just as my mc 505) sample based so you can't mess with the basics of the sound, you can't make a lead or a bass out of a kick sample (which you can with analog synthesis). Of course you can play with some limited parameters such as pitch, envelopes, lfo but you won't get to the basics of the wave form cuz they are fixed in the rom, the only thing that happens is these samples go thru the synth engine (kinda like a studio sampler but then with internal samples)
And better then pro.. come on
sound kinda low , do you even have a clue about what you are saying? Isn't a kick supposed to have low frequencies?

Okay, even if they are indeed samples since the wave forms are inbedded in the ROM.. my point is that wheather you work with a direct sample or patch, or even with a preset of an actual synth, you can certainly tweak it until you get satisfied results. Of course, assuming that the sample is of good quality to begin with.

Bachatu I got your main point in your message. I also think that I should be able to get more our of my CS1x, and that's why I wrote that other thread about the possibility of applying software effects on hardware signals. A hardware equalizer and a hardware compressor would of course be the best alternative for me, but not perhaps the most realistic right now. The internal CS1x effects are not so impressive, and layering can't possibly always be the right answer.

doesn't the cs1x have internal eq? my an1x (developed around the same period) has 3 efx and internal eq separate so maybe it's there too. I find the yamaha efx to be rather good (got a3000, rm1x, an1x and promix01 so I know what I'm talking about) and I don't think there's that much difference between the an1x and cs1x efx (mine has compressor tho )


@ bachatu : like I said there are parameters to fuck up the sound with s&s (sample and synthesis) synths, but you can't mess with the basics of the waveform, they way you can with analog based synths.

I have at least never found any EQ-functions on it. I'm sitting with the "blue book/blue bible" as it is called in my hand now trying to browse for equalizing.

The CS1x and an1x apparently have the same case layout. Exactly where in the menus do you have equalizing? I could compare it with mine if that is possible. I don't know how much the internal menus (those listen on the right) differ.

EDIT: a search with Google got me this:

"For example in Various there are several types of Flnager, Distortion, Phasers, 3-Band EQ, 2-Band EQ"

Gotta start the synth up and check it out. Feels familiar as hell, I might have used those after all...but definetly not something I have been using frequently (which is weird if they really are there).

EDIT: Okay, of course it had those 2- and 3-band EQs. But they are not that useful. The effect is up in the uppermost row, the effect row, and then you have some data parameters to the right of it. Not much you can do, and yes I've been using that one frequently, but it's more like choosing EQ the way you choose among different types of reverb if you know what I mean - with 2 or 3 bands it's more like using readymade EQ-presets than being able to fully customize your EQ, at least if you compare it to EQ-effects with more bands. That's only my opinion though.

^^^
Betafactory:

MyXV-5080 has internal effects and eq. Im thinking hte CSx1 would. Make sure you read over the specs and manual... you can use software eq and effects if you wish. But keep in mind then you start tacking the CPU, and it can indeed be time consuming if you go through the process of exporting things to wave.

DeZmA:

Yeah, its true that you can't mess with the basic wave forms on a module. however, with enough programming knowledge, its possible to reproduce most trance sounds that are used today, using a decent sound module. That is why, like you said, important to know your synth.


Edit: Beta... you replied on the Eq and effects when i had already written the segment above...

Cheers,
Rick

I've never ever seen a synth with an internal eq of more than 4 bands. As you can choose the frequency of the gain it should be more than enough for decent eq-ing. If I understand it right you loose the variation effector when choosing eq, in my an1x it's an seperate eq. And no, except for the design they are not simular at anything. I have all my synthesis-related functions assigned at the knobs. (8 buttons x 8 knobs)

Okay, so they only come with a maximum of 4. Well, I guess I need to experiment more with the dB-parameters then (should be the same as you called the gain). And yes, I loose the rest of the effects under the "VARI"-mode, and the other two DSP-effects are "CHORUS" and "REVERB". Distortion is one of the effects I loose if I choose EQ instead.

The motto of this whole thread more and more seems to be that twice mentioned "Know Your Synth". I'll go through the manual thoroughly as soon as I have time. Last time I did it was when my synth was delivered to me, but I apparently didn't read it well enough that time (and with no earlier experience of hardware it's not too hard to understand). I have for sure gone though and tested every single effect sometime, as they all are clearly found from within the menu system. So basically it's not about finding them, it's about learning how to take use of them in the best way.

Almost all new synthesizers fall into 2 categories. One is VA and the other is sample-rom. Of course there are a few real "analog synthesizers and drum modules, such as the analogue solutions vostox, and the jomox x-se 09. A nord lead 3 is a VA synth. This means Virtual Analog; A virtual duplication of the analog sound process. So instead of being analog inside, everything is digital. The difference with real analog gear is that is has analog components and a digital interface. This is the case with the jomox-xbase 09. The you have the sample based systemed. What they do is simply use the sample, which many cases can be just a sine wave or a square wave. They do not have unlimited sample space of course! So what they do on these sample based systems is use a digital interface to access the sounds and then use digital filters and effects to process the sounds. This is why you can modify the samples. You can extend the sample, ie increase the sustain and release, you can filter the sample. Examples of these are emu units, yamaha ex5, cs series, motif and rs7000, roland jv and xv units, korg trinton units, almost everything is a sample based system.

Some sample units such as my ex5 from yamaha also have va synthesis capabilities. Some do not, such as my Emu Xlead or the rs7000.

The really old analog synths don't even have a digital interface. The modular systems, for instance the analogue solutions vostox is one such unit. The arp 2600 is a rather famous unit. The roland tb-303 is a analog unit with digital interface. Other units like this include new items from studio electronics or the paia fatman.

When you talk about the Xv having waveforms, yes it does. Those are sampled waveforms though. It is not a VA synth, such as the korg ms2000 which actually has emulated analog oscillators produced digitally. That is technically what a VA synth is. Since it has no analog hardware it must digitally emulate the oscillators.

The thing is lots of Digital Sample based systems have similar features to the VA synths and some features cross bleed into eat other. They're both LFO's in VA and Sample Based systems. Same with filters and effects. The only real difference is VA synths have the emulated oscillators, while the sample based systems use samples. Period end of story.

Thank you for sharing that interesting piece of information Flashback!

Well, I just had to show off that I actually know something!

those are indeed the most common forms
Another popular one is fm synthesis (started with the yamaha dx series) Cool for bells, elec piano and efx. (and they still make these synths and implement it at va's)
Others are physical modeling, granular and wavetable synthesis.

Is not physical modeling just another form of Virtual Analog? That is always what I was under the assumption of.

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