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Europe vs. USA

An interesting article I just read in the WSJ today.

Link

quote:

Europe vs. America June 18, 2004; Page A10 The growing split between the U.S. and Europe has been much in the news, mostly on foreign policy. But less well understood is the gap in economic growth and standards of living. Now comes a European report that puts the American advantage in surprisingly stark relief. The study, "The EU vs. USA," was done by a pair of economists -- Fredrik Bergstrom and Robert Gidehag -- for the Swedish think tank Timbro. It found that if Europe were part of the U.S., only tiny Luxembourg could rival the richest of the 50 American states in gross domestic product per capita. Most European countries would rank below the U.S. average, as the nearby chart shows. The authors admit that man doesn't live by GDP alone, and that this measure misses output in the "black" economy, which is significant in Europe's high-tax states. GDP also overlooks "the value of leisure or a good environment" or the way prosperity is spread across a society. But a rising tide still lifts all boats, and U.S. GDP per capita was a whopping 32% higher than the EU average in 2000, and the gap hasn't closed since. It is so wide that if the U.S. economy had frozen in place at 2000 levels while Europe grew, the Continent would still require years to catch up. Ireland, which has lower tax burdens and fewer regulations than the rest of the EU, would be the first but only by 2005. Switzerland, not a member of the EU, and Britain would get there by 2010. But Germany and Spain would need until 2015, while Italy, Sweden and Portugal would have to wait until 2022. Higher GDP per capita allows the average American to spend about $9,700 more on consumption every year than the average European. So Yanks have by far more cars, TVs, computers and other modern goods. "Most Americans have a standard of living which the majority of Europeans will never come anywhere near," the Swedish study says. But what about equality? Well, the percentage of Americans living below the poverty line has dropped to 12% from 22% since 1959. In 1999, 25% of American households were considered "low income," meaning they had an annual income of less than $25,000. If Sweden -- the very model of a modern welfare state -- were judged by the same standard, about 40% of its households would be considered low income. In other words poverty is relative, and in the U.S. a large 45.9% of the "poor" own their homes, 72.8% have a car and almost 77% have air conditioning, which remains a luxury in most of Western Europe. The average living space for poor American households is 1,200 square feet. In Europe, the average space for all households, not just the poor, is 1,000 square feet. So what is Europe's problem? "The expansion of the public sector into overripe welfare states in large parts of Europe is and remains the best guess as to why our continent cannot measure up to our neighbor in the west," the authors write. In 1999, average EU tax revenues were more than 40% of GDP, and in some countries above 50%, compared with less than 30% for most of the U.S. We don't report this with any nationalist glee. The world needs a prosperous, growing Europe, and its relative economic decline is one reason for growing EU-American tension. A poorer Europe lacks the wealth to invest in defense, a fact that in turn affects the willingness of Europeans to join America in confronting global security threats. But at least all of this is a warning to U.S. politicians who want this country to go down the same welfare-state road to decline.

Woohoo, that's right! My GDP kicks the crap out of your GDP any day of the week!!! Who wants to step up??? New York?? Kansas??? California?? You got NOTHING!!

yay Connecticut!

Interesting read.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Woohoo, that's right! My GDP kicks the crap out of your GDP any day of the week!!! Who wants to step up??? New York?? Kansas??? California?? You got NOTHING!!

LOL!

What gives with the wealthy politicians? Is anybody surprised? I'm not. Wasteful bastards.

The entire 49 page report is a fairly interesting read:

http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/pdf/EU_vs_USA_English.pdf

Of course one must keep in mind that it is a free trade think tank when reading it. It performs a lot of interesting analyses however.

Hey Opus, go to page 14. Look I see you! Getting your ass beat by Wisconsin and Nebraska heehee. Goddammit if anything WE should be given statehood and YOU guys should be demoted to being a district! The district of Kansas ... I like the sounds of that.

One thing I noticed in the article it said "cell phones per 1000" in the USA was 12.4 and in Sweden was 229.9. I knew that sweden would be higher but 12.4 seems very low? Hell every person I know seems to have a cell phone or in my case two of them.

quote:

Originally posted by BadBadNeil One thing I noticed in the article it said "cell phones per 1000" in the USA was 12.4 and in Sweden was 229.9. I knew that sweden would be higher but 12.4 seems very low? Hell every person I know seems to have a cell phone or in my case two of them.

True dat. Half of the homeless population in America has cell-phones. Go figure.

Then again, Nokia is headquartered in Finland. Not Sweden, but close enough

quote:

Originally posted by BadBadNeil One thing I noticed in the article it said "cell phones per 1000" in the USA was 12.4 and in Sweden was 229.9. I knew that sweden would be higher but 12.4 seems very low? Hell every person I know seems to have a cell phone or in my case two of them.

It could be that the European land line phone system sucks. I had read an article a while back that unlimited local calling minutes was unheard of in Europe. Also long distance calling must be a bitch considering you're likely to make long distance calls country to country as opposed to state to state therefore exposing you to more charges? THat's my guess.

ahhh so refreshing, that is why i am here
the US is the land of opportunity, and living the american dream

quote:

Originally posted by occrider It could be that the European land line phone system sucks. I had read an article a while back that unlimited local calling minutes was unheard of in Europe. Also long distance calling must be a bitch considering you're likely to make long distance calls country to country as opposed to state to state therefore exposing you to more charges? THat's my guess.

Well, in Europe, even local calls have a per-minute rate. Until broadband came along, that was the biggest problem with getting internet into the homes of Europeans - they had to pay per minute for both the provider and the line.

While I can't speak for other European nations, I have read articles alluding to the fact that the French and the Italians switched to cellphones much sooner than the US because they were actually more reliable than the landline network. When I lived in France a few years back, I picked up my landline phone to make a call and didn't get a dialtone on a somewhat frequent basis. I don't think that's ever happened to me in the US.

Its the taxes stupid.

Simple as that. Europeans believe they know whats best for you.
Americans believe in the individual.

A contrast in philosophy that produces real economic and social differences.

and Imokrouk, I'll forgive you for living in France. The trauma alone should be enough of a punishment.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Its the taxes stupid. Simple as that. Europeans believe they know whats best for you. Americans believe in the individual. A contrast in philosophy that produces real economic and social differences. and Imokrouk, I'll forgive you for living in France. The trauma alone should be enough of a punishment.

Indeed. It all comes down to philosophy at it's base. Why are we here? What is our purpose? How do we make decisions?

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Simple as that. Europeans believe they know whats best for you. Americans believe in the individual.

It sounds good when you read it, but it's a peculiar comment considering that the liberal philosophy is due to a European, Locke, and the meddling in other countries affairs exhibited by the current US government.

Maybe it should be restated like:
"Each european believe that he knows what is best for all other Europeans.
Americans believe in the individual American (as long as he is not gay or muslim)."

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic It sounds good when you read it, but it's a peculiar comment considering that the liberal philosophy is due to a European, Locke, and the meddling in other countries affairs exhibited by the current US government. Maybe it should be restated like: "Each european believe that he knows what is best for all other Europeans. Americans believe in the individual American (as long as he is not gay or muslim)."

Well Muslims lived fine in America up until the whole events around 9/11, even after the first World Trade Center attack there was not a problem, maybe to the detriment as the second attack would demonstrate, think about it. As for gays they are here to stay and while some may not approve of their lifestyle they are what they are and will not change for anyone. Eventually the Supreme Court is going to have to clearly establish the criterias for gay rights I believe to put to bed the issue of same sex marraiges one way or another. If two people are happy together, pay taxes and don't harm others why should they face discrimination, but that's another subject.

quote:

Higher GDP per capita allows the average American to spend about $9,700 more on consumption every year than the average European. So Yanks have by far more cars, TVs, computers and other modern goods. "Most Americans have a standard of living which the majority of Europeans will never come anywhere near," the Swedish study says.

Am I the only one that finds this disturbing? If so, it reflects perfectly the Capitalist state-of-mind that is present in the American society. Who cares if you have 0, 5 or 10 cars??? Does it make you happier? Does it feed the dying children in Africa or does it stop wars around the world?

I think in The Netherlands the standard of living doesn't really need to be improved. There are not many homeless people, an insignificant number (I wouldn't even know how few) of people live below the poverty line, the unemployment rate is low...I can go on...what more do you need

I know this is not what the article is really about, but why is there a need to make such comparisons! Could it even be that the US GDP figure is somewhat irrelevant because you have so many overly-paid people living in your country?

It's not that I feel the desperate need to defend my continent (although I have to face the fact that my Pro-NL behaviour is stronger now that the Euro 2004 is happening, haha), but I just felt like I needed to say this

I might be the only person, btw, but I'm very happy our taxes are this high. We would have to miss out on a lot of great stuff if they lowered the tax-rate. And the DUtch may be moaning about it, they should see the difference!! (go live in Mexico for a year, for example)

Hope I didn't make anyone suspect what my haircolour is, whahaha

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic It sounds good when you read it, but it's a peculiar comment considering that the liberal philosophy is due to a European, Locke, and the meddling in other countries affairs exhibited by the current US government. Maybe it should be restated like: "Each european believe that he knows what is best for all other Europeans. Americans believe in the individual American (as long as he is not gay or muslim)."

I don't think gays or muslims are treated any worse in the USA than religious fundamentals, Americans, or Eastern Europeans are treated in Europe.

As for what Europe once was does not give it any claim to the greatest it does not posess today. Further many of the enlightenment thinkers agreed that such thought of the individual as still reflected by Americans were only able to exist in the New World.

Iraq clearly demonstrates the USA resolve of the individual. They are there now to make sure that the Iraqis are powerful enough to have their own individual rights and have the ability to preserve those rights. It has not chose to impose a new monarch, or imperical/colonial rule over the Iraqis such as the Europeans had done to it.

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Proximus Am I the only one that finds this disturbing? If so, it reflects perfectly the Capitalist state-of-mind that is present in the American society. Who cares if you have 0, 5 or 10 cars??? Does it make you happier? Does it feed the dying children in Africa or does it stop wars around the world? I think in The Netherlands the standard of living doesn't really need to be improved. There are not many homeless people, an insignificant number (I wouldn't even know how few) of people live below the poverty line, the unemployment rate is low...I can go on...what more do you need I know this is not what the article is really about, but why is there a need to make such comparisons! Could it even be that the US GDP figure is somewhat irrelevant because you have so many overly-paid people living in your country? It's not that I feel the desperate need to defend my continent (although I have to face the fact that my Pro-NL behaviour is stronger now that the Euro 2004 is happening, haha), but I just felt like I needed to say this I might be the only person, btw, but I'm very happy our taxes are this high. We would have to miss out on a lot of great stuff if they lowered the tax-rate. And the DUtch may be moaning about it, they should see the difference!! (go live in Mexico for a year, for example) Hope I didn't make anyone suspect what my haircolour is, whahaha

We also had few homeless people until Reagan's Administration.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c...&type=printable


I'm not proposing we jump off the cliff into a Netherlands style government though.

well you never know which great opportunities you may find down that cliff

I say if you got the money spend it. Why the hell not. If I was making a few mill a year I'd sure as heck have a couple $5,000,000 houses and 10 cars too along with designer wardrobes and lots of investments. It seems to me the only people that say money doesn't make you happy are the people that don't have it which includes me but I've known people with lots of money and they seem VERY happy, moreso if they worked their asses offf for it and weren't just trust fund babies. I think you appreciate it more when you can say you had a nissan or toyota as a kid and now you have that BMW or Ferrari that you always wanted as a kid. I don't know if this is American type thinking but seems quite logical to me.

I don't understand what you work for if you don't work for a better way of life. It seems ike your job would become meaningless and drag if you just go to work not expecting to ever try to get a raise or work your way up the chain. Most of the super rich do give to charity, sometimes out of kindness, but many times because it lowers your tax bracket. Bill Gates is one example with his extensive work in Africa on the mission to cure aids. The guy has spent billions doing this and building schools and libraries around the country and he didn't have to do a thing.

Theres quite a few affluent people in Europe too, in fact the most expensive house in the world was recently sold in England and you can't honestly say that Europeans don't like their sports cars and material posessions, especially with companies such as Porsche, Ferrari, Bugatti, Lamborghini, BMW, Mercedes, Mclaren, etc being in Europe.

As one of my sociology professors once said about money...

"Money doesn't buy happiness, but it's next to impossible to be happy without it."

Depends how you look at it off course. Poverty in here is like 0.000001%. When I break a leg I get tons of social payments so I'll be fine. It's, as mentioned before, the difference on taxes/social requirements. Maybe that's why all those people from the Middle East countries come over here...

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Proximus I know this is not what the article is really about, but why is there a need to make such comparisons! Could it even be that the US GDP figure is somewhat irrelevant because you have so many overly-paid people living in your country?

Actually, it is a valid point you are raising. If a comparison was made for the minimum wages in the US and Europe, or for the number of people earning more than the average, I think the statistics would be reversed.
However, such statistics would be better suited for arguing that no one is really bad off in Europe compared to the US, which is not really of importance for the future strength of the European economy. So if this is a "US vs. Europe in general"-thread, then your point is great, but if it is a "Europe have a problem"-thread then it's a bit off. I cannot tell the true nature of this thread, though.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus I don't think gays or muslims are treated any worse in the USA than religious fundamentals, Americans, or Eastern Europeans are treated in Europe. As for what Europe once was does not give it any claim to the greatest it does not posess today. Further many of the enlightenment thinkers agreed that such thought of the individual as still reflected by Americans were only able to exist in the New World.

Gee, Yoepus - you have done it again. I point to problems in the US, which would render the rosy picture you have painted invalid, and you "defend" yourself by attacking Europe. Why don't you try to respond to the actual points for once.

And for that "Americans and Eastern Europeans are treated bad in Europe"-thing, apart from being wholly absurd wrt. the Eastern Europeans, have you anything to back up that claim?

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Iraq clearly demonstrates the USA resolve of the individual. They are there now to make sure that the Iraqis are powerful enough to have their own individual rights and have the ability to preserve those rights. It has not chose to impose a new monarch, or imperical/colonial rule over the Iraqis such as the Europeans had done to it.

The Iraqis do not want democracy and capitalism - how many people need to be killed before that message gets through? If you really believed in the individual, you should have let the Iraqis depose of Saddam themselves, or have lend a hand when groups of Iraqis rebelled following Desert Storm, instead of sitting back and letting them get slaughtered.
It seems to me that the Bush administration really thinks it knows what is best for other people. Take the comments about Turkey and whether it should be accepted for inclusion in the EU, for instance: Why on earth should that be any concern of a US administration?

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic Gee, Yoepus - you have done it again. I point to problems in the US, which would render the rosy picture you have painted invalid, and you "defend" yourself by attacking Europe. Why don't you try to respond to the actual points for once. And for that "Americans and Eastern Europeans are treated bad in Europe"-thing, apart from being wholly absurd wrt. the Eastern Europeans, have you anything to back up that claim? The Iraqis do not want democracy and capitalism - how many people need to be killed before that message gets through? If you really believed in the individual, you should have let the Iraqis depose of Saddam themselves, or have lend a hand when groups of Iraqis rebelled following Desert Storm, instead of sitting back and letting them get slaughtered. It seems to me that the Bush administration really thinks it knows what is best for other people. Take the comments about Turkey and whether it should be accepted for inclusion in the EU, for instance: Why on earth should that be any concern of a US administration?

Certainly you cannot argue that in Eastern European countries such as Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia to name a few the Romani populations of those countries are treated as second class citizens. They are often referred to as blacks by the general population, education is usually not available or segregated when offered.

As for Americans being treated bad in Europe wouldn't surprise me since people always try to get political when they hear someone is American, I have had friends who have gone to Ireland to visit and as soon as people hear that they are American they start asking a whole bunch of questions centered on politics, such as how could you elect George Bush, why are Americans so ignorant of other people, along with the other usual inferences. Never mind that over half of America didn't vote for Bush, which means odds are you just might be speaking to someone who disagrees with his policies, but do some Europeans take the time to know that, no, they simply want to argue politics because you are American and have already been generalized. When I go on vacation I don't want to talk politics but to relax and enjoy another culture, hope many Europeans realize this as well.

When it comes to Bush and the administration certainly they have no business in E.U. affairs but we could just as easily say that Europe has no business in American affairs by that token of sentiment and I wouldn't mind seeing both exercised. I believe with the issue of Turkey and the E.U. too much of a deal is being made on your part when the U.S. says it supports E.U. membership for Turkey, either way it is not up to America, but Turkey is an ally and the U.S is simply voicing support for that ally, what difference will it make when France, Germany, U.K all favor Turkish memerbership as well. I will never sell America short because I know what this nation ultimately stands for and administrations come and go.

P.S. America has seen other rough patches in its history and has managed to strengthen and grow throughout it all, all who predict the downfall of America seriously underestimate the spirit of this nation when all is said and done. America could be passive, isolationist and inward looking but will that be for the better in the world of today?

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic Gee, Yoepus - you have done it again. I point to problems in the US, which would render the rosy picture you have painted invalid, and you "defend" yourself by attacking Europe. Why don't you try to respond to the actual points for once. And for that "Americans and Eastern Europeans are treated bad in Europe"-thing, apart from being wholly absurd wrt. the Eastern Europeans, have you anything to back up that claim?

The point of my "attack" on Europe was to point out how ridicilous your attack on America looks. I have still not met an American that hates gay people, I've met Americans that hate Jews, some that very much dislike Arabs and hate their terrorists. I've met a lot of people in America. Its still curious I haven't met a gay-hater yet. So since American's don't hate gays, I have no clue what you are talking about.

My point that Europeans hate Americanas, Religious men, and Eastern European is no less absurd then your remark about Americans. It didn't respond to that point, as I don't think it is a point - I don't see this problem in American society. Just as no dount you don't see the problem with Eastern Europeans and Americans in your society.

...As for Eastern European treatment. My claim comes from personal experience with friends from places such as Turkey, Yugoslavia, and Bosnia. They don't make you guys sound like the politest of hosts.

There will no doubt be intolerance in every society, but trancholic, if you are trying to make the claim that European society is more tolerant than American society, I think you are making a very, very far stretch of a claim.

IMO, this point can be proven alone by the fact that America has no nobility.

quote:

The Iraqis do not want democracy and capitalism - how many people need to be killed before that message gets through?

So now you are telling me you as a European know what the Iraqi's want and don't want?! Thanks for making my point for me

quote:

If you really believed in the individual, you should have let the Iraqis depose of Saddam themselves, or have lend a hand when groups of Iraqis rebelled following Desert Storm, instead of sitting back and letting them get slaughtered.

Firstly if we would have "really believed in the individual" as you put it we couldn't have lended a hand when a group of Iraqis rebelled as this would help thema chieve democracy and capitalisim - something you told me Iraqis clearly don't want.

Further the reason the USA attacked Iraq was not because of the lack of individual liberties of the Iraqi people :AHHH SHOCK: No, it was because the USA believed Iraq posed a threat to the it's security. Humanitarian reasons were a consideration but they were not the deciding motivator.

The proof of USA's desire of individual and liberty is in its work now in post-war Iraq. After eliminating the threat the USA does not retreat nor does it setup its own colony to administer the Iraqi's as its subjects. Instead it pours billions of its own dollars for the selflesh welfare of the Iraqi people so they may have a strong stable society in which to decide their liberties and government.

quote:

It seems to me that the Bush administration really thinks it knows what is best for other people. Take the comments about Turkey and whether it should be accepted for inclusion in the EU, for instance: Why on earth should that be any concern of a US administration?

I guess the USA knew what's best for Europe too when they decided to clean up the Balkans... NYCTrance did a good job of addressing this point.




...


Next point. Many Europeans in this thread conceeding that they have lower GDP per capita now make the claim that at least they have welfare.

Guess what? The USA's social program could never dream of being as large, corupt, or ineffective as the ones Europe. But it does its job.

Nobody in the USA is going hungry or dying in the street. If you are hungry, you survive. If you are injured they still heal you. You might not have the best teeth in the world but you survive.

And if you always want the cozy social treatment afforded to low-class Europeans, jail offers great benifits.

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