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-- group c. Requires explanation

group c. Requires explanation

Why is it if denmark and sweden draw by a higher score than 1-1 then italy go out regardless if they beat bulgaria by 1 goal or by 10.

surely this is the most unfair outcome.

shouldn't it just come down to goal difference.

WC98... Spain 6-1 Bulgaria. Nigeria 1-3 Paraguay. Spain go down.
Life's a shit.
(mmmkay, so Spain and Paraguay didn't end with the same points... but it's just an example of the so called unfairness)

Heres what confusles me tho.

if italy win and dnmark draw with sweden then all teams end up on same points.

Usually it would come down to goal difference would it not. But no matter how many goals italy score, if denmark draw with more than 2 goals then they go thru, thats stupid.

no its not done goal difference now
its worked out on how well each team did against each other

quote:

Originally posted by sleepydragon no its not done goal difference now its worked out on how well each team did against each other

well that is complete and utter bullshit whoever thought it up.

now i'm confused.... if sweden and denmark end as a draw and italy wins they will have the same points.
then sweden will qualify because of more goals then denmark right?
since italy play draw agianst sweden and denmark i cant see why they wouldn't qualify with a big enough win

if its worked out on how well they play against eachother,
isn't that a personal opinion, or a matter off playing style?

quote:

Originally posted by _Marc Dawn_ now i'm confused.... if sweden and denmark end as a draw and italy wins they will have the same points. then sweden will qualify because of more goals then denmark right? since italy play draw agianst sweden and denmark i cant see why they wouldn't qualify with a big enough win if its worked out on how well they play against eachother, isn't that a personal opinion, or a matter off playing style?

critery for teams drawn in points:

1. points in games between each others (if they all draw they get all the same points)
2. goal difference in games between each others (if they all draw, all of them get 0 goal difference)
3. goals for in games between each others (this is where italy would have a problem, so far italy and sweden have 1 and denmark has 0. if denmark draw 2-2 with sweden it becomes sweden: 3, demark: 2, italy:1)
4. goal difference in all games (if denmark draws 1-1 this critery moves forward. basically italy would go through if they score more than 2 to bulgaria)
5. no idea, maybe yellow cards? this would ONLY happen if the scores are sweden 1-1 denmark and italy 2-0 bulgaria.

it ain't complicated

that sucks, why not just use overall goal difference

quote:

Originally posted by _Marc Dawn_ that sucks, why not just use overall goal difference

this was the point I was trying to make with the thread.

Why have uefa constantly got to complicate things with stupid rules.

To me, it makes sense. If in the head-to-head between two or three teams one has a better score, it would be logical if that team would go through... but it's just my opinion.

Well overall goal difference is also quite sketchy in this scenario, think about it... Italy knows exactly how many goals it would have to score even though it has drawn all its other games and the other teams have also beaten Bulgaria...

Basically, in a group like this it would always come down to "who thrashes the weakest team the most" which would be ridiculous.

If you think this rule is complicated ask someone of the Duckworth-Lewis system for cricket

In the event of equal points between Denmark and Italy (for example), it would come down to who won the head to head match between them. But this was 0-0, so it goes straight to goal difference.

Right now Denmark have a +2 goal difference while Italy have an equal, or 0, goal difference.

If this happened:
Denmark 2-2 Sweden
Italy 2-0 Bulgaria
Then goal difference would be the same but Denmark would have scored more (4-2 vs 3-1 on goal diff.)

If this happened:
Denmark 2-2 Sweden
Italy 3-0 Bulgaria
Then Italy would go through because they would have +3 goal difference and Denmark would only have +2 goal difference.

To cut a long story short, if the scandinavians draw, the Italians need to put a couple of goals past Bulgaria to qualify.

quote:

Originally posted by paranoik0 critery for teams drawn in points: 1. points in games between each others (if they all draw they get all the same points) 2. goal difference in games between each others (if they all draw, all of them get 0 goal difference) 3. goals for in games between each others (this is where italy would have a problem, so far italy and sweden have 1 and denmark has 0. if denmark draw 2-2 with sweden it becomes sweden: 3, demark: 2, italy:1) 4. goal difference in all games (if denmark draws 1-1 this critery moves forward. basically italy would go through if they score more than 2 to bulgaria) 5. no idea, maybe yellow cards? this would ONLY happen if the scores are sweden 1-1 denmark and italy 2-0 bulgaria. it ain't complicated

For the record, the last three tiebreakers are the qualifying record for the 04 Euros and 02 WC, the Fair Play record followed by, if necessary, a penalty shootout or drawing lots.

quote:

To cut a long story short, if the scandinavians draw, the Italians need to put a couple of goals past Bulgaria to qualify.

that's what i thought too, but i doesn't seem like thats the deal if read the posts on top...

and the "who thrashes the weakest team the most" theory...i can see your point, but this makes the teams play more attacking and makes the game more exiting.

Sweden and Italy drew, Denmark and Italy drew, so if points are even it will go straight to goal difference.

To break it down:

The simple outcomes:
If Denmark win, they are through.
If Italy don't win, they are out.
If Denmark lose and Italy win, Italy are through.
If Denmark and Italy win, Sweden are out.

If points are the same:
If Denmark draw (any result) but Italy beat Bulgaria by at least 3 goals (any result), Italy will go through.

If Denmark draw and Italy beat Bulgaria by 2 goals, the team who has scored most goals over 3 games will go through.

If Denmark draw (any result) but Italy only manage to beat Bulgaria by one goal (any result), Denmark will go through.

quote:

Originally posted by evil_bastard Sweden and Italy drew, Denmark and Italy drew, so if points are even it will go straight to goal difference. If points are the same: If Denmark draw (any result) but Italy beat Bulgaria by at least 3 goals (any result), Italy will go through. If Denmark draw and Italy beat Bulgaria by 2 goals, the team who has scored most goals over 3 games will go through. If Denmark draw (any result) but Italy only manage to beat Bulgaria by one goal (any result), Denmark will go through.

No, paranoik0 gave the right explanation:

1. points in games between each others (if they all draw they get all the same points)
2. goal difference in games between each others (if they all draw, all of them get 0 goal difference)
3. goals for in games between each others (this is where italy would have a problem, so far italy and sweden have 1 and denmark has 0. if denmark draw 2-2 with sweden it becomes sweden: 3, demark: 2, italy:1)
4. goal difference in all games (if denmark draws 1-1 this critery moves forward. basically italy would go through if they score more than 2 to bulgaria)

quote:

3. goals for in games between each others (this is where italy would have a problem, so far italy and sweden have 1 and denmark has 0. if denmark draw 2-2 with sweden it becomes sweden: 3, demark: 2, italy:1)

So if Sweden and Denmark are drawing 2-2 both teams could stop playing football, knowing that they will go through if neither of them scores and giving the Italians no incentive to win. If you're right about that then the rules have taken a step backwards...

quote:

No match in World Cup history has been more distasteful than the West Germany - Austria clash in Spain 1982. Because of the format of the tournament, only a 1-0 win to the Germans meant that both these neighbour countries would proceed to the next round at the expense of Algeria. When West Germany took the lead after 10 minutes, both teams virtually stopped playing. It slowed down to walking pace with neither of the teams interested in going forward. The neutral Spanish crowd and the Algerian fans constantly booed and shouted, a German supporter was so disgusted that he set fire to his national flag on the terraces. The following day Algeria protested to FIFA that the game had been fixed and called for both teams to be disqualified, but their protest was rejected. From the 1986 World Cup onwards, the last round of matches in the 1st round have been played simultaneously to avoid scandals like that.

yes if they cant figure it out from games played against each other or goals it comes down to fair play who ever has least yellow cards goes through

quote:

Originally posted by evil_bastard So if Sweden and Denmark are drawing 2-2 both teams could stop playing football, knowing that they will go through if neither of them scores and giving the Italians no incentive to win. If you're right about that then the rules have taken a step backwards...

Yes. Thats causing alot of Italian journalists and players to believe that we have already fixed the game. Especially since we are neighbours and speak similar languages. Which is silly. This is the "Battle of Scandinavia" both of the teams want to beat the other badly. Secondly its not our mentality to cheat this way. We dont have scandals where clubs send referees gold watches, systematically give players forbidden substances or fix matches.
One Swedish journalist asked an Italian colleage why Italy is worried that the match is fixed. The answer was: "Because thats what we would do!"

Still if the score is 2-2 in the end of the game, no one is going to play very attacking not wanting to risk advancing the group. So its a pretty probable result.
It would be pretty funny if it really ended 2-2.

i remember a similar occasion on wc2002 when a couple minutes from the end of the game the result fit the two teams and they passed the ball in the midfield until the end.. can't remember who were the teams.. i have this idea about mexico and italy but not sure

If it's 2-2 then a lot of eyebrows will be raised

i wonder what criteria they look at for qualifying. i reckon it should be decided by paper-scissors-stone or something.

in the UK the live match is going to be Italy-Bulgaria, wish they'd show Denmark-Sweden. Will be so funny if Italy go out

right you fools for the rules go here.......



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That's all I can say about ITALIA

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