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-- Stop this Bull**** Stonewall on the Prison Abuses

Stop this Bull**** Stonewall on the Prison Abuses

For some reason, this issue has taken a backseat lately. Well, I guess that's subjective - it hasn't been in the front pages every day lately. The problem is, it should. Too much has been revealed about this Administration's authorization for torture. First they say it was only a select few - evidence has mounted against this claim. Then they said it's not widespread - evidence is countering this as well. Then they said it didn't come from very far up high - evidence is showing this to be bullshit. And now they're trying to re-define what "torture" is - organ shutdown (no), electrical shock to your balls (no), ummm death (oh, uhh, yes).

This Administration and the Pentagon has collectively stonewalled Congress and the public long enough. Get this shit out in the open, let it run its course, and let's move on here. It is becoming infuriating, and the GOP majority has a direct hand in responsibility IF they continue to aid and abet the tactless dodging of the Administration:

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June 30, 2004 Abu Ghraib, Stonewalled While piously declaring its determination to unearth the truth about Abu Ghraib, the Bush administration has spent nearly two months obstructing investigations by the Army and members of Congress. It has dragged out the Army's inquiry, withheld crucial government documents from a Senate committee and stonewalled senators over dozens of Red Cross reports that document the horrible mistreatment of Iraqis at American military prisons. Even last week's document dump from the White House, which included those cynical legal road maps around treaties and laws against torturing prisoners, seemed part of this stonewalling campaign. Nothing in those hundreds of pages explained what orders had been issued to the military and C.I.A. jailers in Iraq, and by whom. It took the Pentagon more than two weeks to appoint a replacement for Maj. Gen. George Fay, who had to be relieved of the task of investigating the military intelligence units at Abu Ghraib because he was not senior enough to question Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the commander in Iraq. The process underscored the inability of the military to investigate itself at this level. The Pentagon named someone of high enough rank � just barely. That officer is a three-star general, as is General Sanchez. He will have to get up to speed before questioning General Sanchez, and the Pentagon will undoubtedly stall again when the new investigating general, inevitably, needs to go yet higher. The Pentagon has also not turned over to the Senate the full report by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who conducted the Army's biggest investigation so far into abuses at Abu Ghraib. The Pentagon has still not accounted for the 2,000 pages missing from his 6,000-page file when it was given to the Senate Armed Services Committee more than a month ago; the missing pages include draft documents on interrogation techniques for Iraq. The committee's chairman, Senator John Warner, said last week that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld had assured him that he was working on the problem. Mr. Warner's faith seems deeply misplaced. Mr. Rumsfeld's handling of another issue, the Red Cross reports on Iraq, is the most outrageous example of the administration's bad faith on the prison scandal. The Bush administration has cited Red Cross confidentiality policies to explain its failure to give up the reports. The trouble is, the Red Cross has repeatedly told the administration to go ahead and share the agency's findings with Congress, as long as steps are taken to prevent leaks. On May 7, the Senate armed services panel asked Mr. Rumsfeld for these reports on widespread abuse in the military prisons in Iraq; one of the reports had already appeared on the Internet. Mr. Rumsfeld assured the committee that he would turn them over, if the Red Cross agreed. Mr. Rumsfeld and his aides have not handed over the reports � 40 in all, including 24 from Iraq. Over the weeks, the Pentagon has assured increasingly angry senators that it was negotiating with the Red Cross, and then offered the rather absurd claim that it was still "collecting" the documents. In fact, the International Red Cross gave its consent within 24 hours of Mr. Rumsfeld's empty promise, and has repeated it several times. In late May, Kevin Moley, the American ambassador to the international organizations based in Geneva, invited the head of the Red Cross, Jakob Kellenberger, to "express any concerns" his organization had about giving the documents to Congress. Dr. Kellenberger replied that it was never a problem as long as the documents were kept confidential. Given the administration's habit of selective disclosure, however, Dr. Kellenberger insisted that all of the reports, not just some, be sent to Congress, in their entirety. He has also asked for an inventory of what is shared. Still, the Pentagon told Senator Warner's committee that it had not worked out an arrangement. On June 15, Christophe Girod, head of the Red Cross delegation in Washington, wrote to Senator Edward Kennedy, a leader in the fight to get the prison reports, that the decision "lies with the U.S. authorities." He confirmed that the Red Cross had given the Pentagon permission to hand over the documents in early May. Last Thursday, members of the Armed Services Committee attended a closed-door briefing with the Pentagon, ostensibly on the Red Cross reports. But the briefers did not turn over any documents; they merely showed the senators reports on Guant�namo Bay that had no bearing on Iraq. The Senate is now in a two-week recess. In one of the few signs of life on Capitol Hill on this issue, Mr. Warner promises to resume his hearings after the recess. But even the Red Cross in Geneva has got it figured out: the administration has no intention of cooperating. It's time for the Republican majority in Congress to stop covering for the White House and compel the administration, by subpoena if necessary, to turn over all documents relating to Abu Ghraib � starting with those Red Cross reports. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/30/o...print&position=

oh give it a rest.

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Originally posted by Yoepus oh give it a rest.

Rummy? Is that you?

I think the "lack" of attention is a by-product of modern media. We've had our one-month feeding frenzy and now everyone is completely burnt out on the issue and no one cares. Or at least now it is at the level of attention that it really deserves...take your pick.

this is so predictable.

what hasn't been fully disclosed already, will most certainly be leaked prior to the elections and or the conventions, and we will all see the motives for what they are worth. it's been said that it would behouve the administration to disclose everything now, otherwise suffer the inevitable timed leaks during crucial stages of the election.

so we'll see.

IMO it's much a do about nil now

White House Memos Reveal Treaty Violations

The two-inch stack of documents released by the White House demonstrates that the Administration at the highest levels approved interrogation techniques that are prohibited by binding international law. According to press reports, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld approved, among other things: putting detainees in stress positions; hooding; mild physical contact such as grabbing, poking in the chest, and pushing; 20-hour interrogations; depriving prisoners of religious items and forcing them to shave their beards and heads; stripping detainees naked; using dogs to induce stress; manipulating temperature controls; and isolating prisoners for up to 30 days.

Deborah Pearlstein, Director of Human Rights First�s U.S. Law and Security Program, explained: "The documents released yesterday squarely conflict with the Administration�s repeated assertions that it treats detainees humanely and in accordance with the principles of the Geneva Conventions. Indeed, the documents show that in an attempt to extract information from detainees, the Administration authorized cruel and degrading treatment, in violation of its treaty obligations."

The tactics listed above violate the Fourth Geneva Convention, the Convention Against Torture (CAT), and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) � all of which the United States has signed and ratified. The techniques described violate, among other things, Article 27 (ensuring respect for all detainees� persons, honor, and religion) and Article 31 (prohibiting the use of physical or moral coercion to obtain information) of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The techniques also violate Article 7 (prohibiting cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment) and Article 10 (mandating that all detainees be treated with humanity and respect) of the ICCPR and Article 16 (prohibiting cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment) of the CAT.

These documents, combined with other Administration memoranda leaked previously, demonstrate that the Administration purposefully circumvented well established international laws in the name of its global "war against terrorism."

The documents' release follows a report issued by Human Rights First called "Ending Secret Detention," which documents U.S. failures to identify and track prisoners in its custody and to allow the International Red Cross access to detainees. The report calls on the U.S. Government to lift the veil of secrecy surrounding U.S. detention practices in order to guard against torture and abuse.

Released docs online at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2004Jun22.html

Report: Ending Secret Detention

U.S. Holding Prisoners in More Than Two Dozen Secret Detention Facilities Worldwide, New Report Says


After Abu Ghraib and Bush Administration Memos, ICRC (Red Cross) Must Have Access to All Detainees Held In U.S. Custody

WASHINGTON, D.C. (June 17) � A new report from Human Rights First (the new name of the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights) outlines the scope of the global network of U.S. detention facilities holding suspects in the "war on terror." The report lists more than two dozen facilities that have been reported by Human Rights First sources and the media; at least half of these operate in total secrecy.
In addition to listing known detention facilities � including prisons at Guantanamo Bay, Bagram Air Force Base, and Abu Ghraib � the report, "Ending Secret Detentions" provides an accounting of U.S. military detention facilities reported in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Jordan, and aboard U.S. ships at sea (see attached list).

"The abuses at Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib cannot be addressed in isolation," said Deborah Pearlstein, the Director of Human Rights First's U.S. Law and Security Program. "The United States government is holding prisoners in a secret system of off-shore prisons beyond the reach of adequate supervision, accountability, or law."

Human Rights First is calling for a comprehensive global response by U.S. authorities to end secret detentions, to investigate abuses, and to put necessary corrective measures in place.

The report, called "Ending Secret Detention," concludes that the secrecy surrounding this network of detention facilities, as it has been constructed and operated by the United States, makes "inappropriate detention and abuse not only likely, but inevitable." Human Rights First calls on the Administration to give the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) immediate access to all those it is holding in custody in the "war on terror."

The report outlines what is known about this global detention system and finds that it is, to varying degrees in different locations, failing to meet existing obligations under U.S. and international law.

These obligations include:

Affording the ICRC unfettered access to all detainees held in the course of armed conflict
Providing every individual in custody some recognized legal status
Disclosing the names of all individuals detained to their families and friends
In a chapter called "The Purpose Behind the Law," the report argues that the United States' illegal treatment of detainees puts U.S. forces abroad at greater risk of the same kinds of torture and ill treatment. It also describes how these illegal practices seriously undermine the United States' ability to forge alliances throughout the international community � a goal essential to defeating terrorism over the long term. "The United States' practices in its global network of detention facilities also has a deeply negative effect on the U.S. ability to combat the threat of terrorism," the report finds, "which depends critically on a visible demonstration that U.S. deeds match its words in supporting democracy and human rights."

To come into compliance with the law and to prevent future abuse, Human Rights First calls on the Administration to take a series of steps, including:

(1) Granting the ICRC unrestricted access to all U.S.-controlled detention facilities around the world.

(2) Disclosing to Congress and the ICRC the location of all U.S.-controlled detention facilities worldwide, and providing a regular accounting of the number and nationality of all held.

(3) Ordering a thorough, comprehensive, and independent investigation of all U.S.-controlled detention facilities, and submitting the findings of the investigation to Congress.

(4) Taking all necessary steps to inform the immediate families of those detained of their relatives� capture, location, legal status, and condition of health.

Full Report (PDF - 400KB)

# # #

"Ending Secret Detentions" is part of Human Rights First�s "End Abuse" campaign. Information about the "End Abuse" Campaign can be found at www.humanrightsfirst.org. Human Rights First (the new name of Lawyers Committee for Human Rights) works in the United States and abroad to create a secure and humane world by advancing justice, human dignity and respect for the rule of law. In 2003, we published two in-depth and well-received reports on the erosion of civil liberties and human rights in the U.S. since September 11. Imbalance of Powers and Assessing the New Normal are widely cited, and relied on by journalists, policy-makers and advocates. The reports have shaped the public debate and agenda on how to enhance security and protect rights post 9/11. Last year, our legal representation program won 103 asylum cases for men and women fleeing rape, torture and political and religious persecution in their home countries.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono I think the "lack" of attention is a by-product of modern media. We've had our one-month feeding frenzy and now everyone is completely burnt out on the issue and no one cares. Or at least now it is at the level of attention that it really deserves...take your pick.

Agreed. Sick, huh?

Last time I checked, beheading wasn't on the approved list, so al-Zarqawi et al one upped us. If we added that to our list, then they would have to start drawing and quartering to beat us.

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Originally posted by emander Last time I checked, beheading wasn't on the approved list, so al-Zarqawi et al one upped us. If we added that to our list, then they would have to start drawing and quartering to beat us.

we could always "tar and feather" 'em or burn them at the stake!!!!

go medieval and show them who's boss



the same group of people who call them savages, suggest treating savagery like a contest

Can anyone source the chain of events leading to the fourth geneva conventions , and why the US ratified them?

here's an excerpt from the fourth convention of 1949, Arcticle 3:

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Art 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following Art 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions: (1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria. To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons: (a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; (b) taking of hostages; (c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment; (d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

Convention (III) relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.

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Originally posted by ResonantDrag we could always "tar and feather" 'em or burn them at the stake!!!! go medieval and show them who's boss

BWAHHAHAAAAAA!!!!!

angry oppinion.

anyways, it was fucking stupid, i totally agree. i think its interesting that that same shit happens in fraternities all the time, but that's American and tradition, so that's ok. (actually fraternity hazing is worse, no one has died from prison abuse yet several college kids die every year due to hazing)

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Originally posted by davinox angry oppinion. anyways, it was fucking stupid, i totally agree. i think its interesting that that same shit happens in fraternities all the time, but that's American and tradition, so that's ok. (actually fraternity hazing is worse, no one has died from prison abuse yet several college kids die every year due to hazing)

Agreed--but looking back--hazing is fun as hell! Me and my old college buddies still haze the shit out of eachother every chance we get. Our take on it was always that "Hazing begins AFTER initiation!"

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Originally posted by davinox angry oppinion. anyways, it was fucking stupid, i totally agree. i think its interesting that that same shit happens in fraternities all the time, but that's American and tradition, so that's ok. (actually fraternity hazing is worse, no one has died from prison abuse yet several college kids die every year due to hazing)

This Limbaugh-like comparison really makes me sick. Are you certain you wish to stand by this comparison? I had a number of close friends who were in frats in colleges, a handful were roomates of mine, and granted there were some pretty outlandish stuff goin' on that they had to put up with.

The differences between frat hazing and prison tortures is so vast and yet requires so little common sense, it really amazes me that idiot ultra-right wing Bush apologists would even try to make such a disgusting comparison.

Did the prisoners have a choice to put up with the tortures?

Did they ever shove broom sticks up your asses?

Did they ever strip you naked and sick big ass dogs on you?

Did they ever electrocute your fucking balls? Did they ever threaten it?

Did they ever beat the living shit out of you? I mean really, BEAT the living shit to the point of broken bones, failed organs, etc?

Did they ever force you to give another man a fucking blowjob? How about force you to fuck him?

Did anyone in the frat ever rape you incessantly?

Did your Greek council pass these actions down to your fraternity members to perform on its new members?

And yes, they ever beat and torture you to the point of your fucking death?:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/j.../tort-j02.shtml

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...6¬Found=true

There have been murders associated with these torture scandals, and a wide number of investigations are pending.

And these are only a handful of things that has been disclosed to the public. There are quite a few more pictures that haven't even been released yet.

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 I had a number of close friends who were in frats in colleges...

Hey! It's not a 'frat'. You wouldn't call your country a...

With respect to your comments and how my pledging experience went:

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Did the prisoners have a choice to put up with the tortures?

No, we really didn't, though you could always say a pledge can just quit if they are that disturbed, though that rarely happened.

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Did they ever shove broom sticks up your asses?

No, but I've seen it happen outside of a fraternity environment. It was hard not to laugh.

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Did they ever strip you naked and sick big ass dogs on you?

I think the elephant walk is worse

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Did they ever electrocute your fucking balls? Did they ever threaten it?

Not this specific threat, but how about the threat of getting "skull-fucked"?

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Did they ever beat the living shit out of you? I mean really, BEAT the living shit to the point of broken bones, failed organs, etc?

Actually, this shit happens all the time, and is pretty sickening when taken to extremes.

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Did they ever force you to give another man a fucking blowjob? How about force you to fuck him?

Nah, but Russian situps are pretty nasty.

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Did anyone in the frat ever rape you incessantly?

No, but this didn't happen at Abu Ghraib either--at least not the way you describe it. Clearly you're pretty riled up about the downplaying of this issue though!

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Did your Greek council pass these actions down to your fraternity members to perform on its new members?

Hazing is EXPLICITLY forbidden by the IFC and the university. I'd say this is the best place to draw a parallel comparison. Had the administrations(university or U.S.) known what was going on, they would've likely revoked our charter and reported us to nationals. That's why this stuff happens secretly at lower ranks. And when these activities are discovered, the shit always hits the fan. I was in charge of risk management at my fraternity, and while I was in office, I never heard about hazing incidents because I was the LAST person in the fraternity that anyone would want to find out about stuff if we were to keep our noses clean.

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And yes, they ever beat and torture you to the point of your fucking death?

Unfortunately, many university students have died as a result of fraternity hazing.



I know you're pretty pissed off about this, Opus, and I'm just trying to get under your skin a little. Obviously the context of the prisoner abuses are much different from those of universitites--the prisoners were never going to gain admission into any club or society following the actions taken against them. It's just funny to me that 7 months after these events took place people are still howling over it like it's fresh meat while the violent and much more horrific beheadings of Nick Berg and Paul Johnson etc. are all but forgotten.

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Originally posted by Shakka I know you're pretty pissed off about this, Opus, and I'm just trying to get under your skin a little. Obviously the context of the prisoner abuses are much different from those of universitites--the prisoners were never going to gain admission into any club or society following the actions taken against them. It's just funny to me that 7 months after these events took place people are still howling over it like it's fresh meat while the violent and much more horrific beheadings of Nick Berg and Paul Johnson etc. are all but forgotten.

Ahh, your mama!

For the most part, no, I'm not that pissed off at all, at least no more than any other guy on the right, left, or middle. It's just those extremist views that tried to downplay this issue like Limbaugh that I just can never understand.

As for the Berg and Johnson beheadings, I'd say that they are receiving just about the same amount of playing time as the prison torture scandals right now - very little. But thankfully it also appears the new Iraqi government is taking a stance on these terrorist groups and al-Zarqawi.


Edit: BTW, don't think I have anything against frat guys - like I said, some are still my closest friends. And some of the best parties in college were at the frat houses.

At least from what I can remember.....

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Originally posted by ResonantDrag (c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

What, sort of like putting people in cages?

Oh, wait.

WTF, LET'S KEEP THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE HERE

PEOPLE ARE MAD ABOUT DEGRADATION?? REMEMBER THESE TERRORISTS SAWED A MAN'S FUCKING HEAD OFF ON VIDEO. NOT A SOLDIER, OR A TERRORIST, BUT SOME CIVILIAN GUY. i so am tired of everyone bitching about how hard the terrorists have it in prison. that the friends of soldiers killed by these people arent being very kind to them, and that even though members of the same terrorist organization flew planes into buildings and killed thousands, we aren't giving them much humane treatment, or the respect they deserve.

keep things in perspective.

let's keep things out of your perspective...

these were not the terrorists that flew planes into buildings, or sawed heads off. these were military regulars doing their enlisted duties and were captured. besides, whether these captives were some group of savages, isn't it the united states' responsibility to maintain the message that we are in Iraq as liberators? regardless of what they deserve?

goddamn.

Well, I just read an article in Rolling Stone Magazine, of all places, regarding the prisoner abuse and thought I'd resurrect this thread somewhat.

Apparently they've gotten hold of the classified documents detailing the abuses outlined by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba in his report on Abu Ghraib and it feauters some 6,000 pages of internal Army memos and e-mails, reports on prison riots and escapes, and sworn statements by soldiers, officers, private contractors and detainees.

You can read the complete Rolling Stone report on these documents here


Here are some excerpts:

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In one sworn statement, Kasim Mehaddi Hilas, detainee number 151108, said he witnessed a translator referred to only as Abu Hamid raping a teenage boy. "I saw Abu Hamid, who was wearing the military uniform, putting his dick in the little kid's ass," Hilas testified. "The kid was hurting very bad." A female soldier took pictures of the rape, Hilas said.

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During the Muslim holy period of Ramadan, Hilas saw Spc. Charles Graner Jr. and an unnamed "helper" tie a detainee to a bed around midnight. "They . . . inserted the phosphoric light in his ass, and he was yelling for God's help," the prisoner testified. Again, the same female soldier photographed the torture.

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Another prisoner, Abd Alwhab Youss, was punished after guards accused him of plotting to attack an MP with a broken toothbrush. Guards took Youss into a closed room, poured cold water on him, pushed his head into urine and beat him with a broom. Then the guards "pressed my ass with a broom and spit on it," Youss said.

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The files make clear that responsibility for what Taguba called "sadistic, blatant and wanton" abuses extends to several high-ranking officers still serving in command positions. Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, who is now in charge of all military prisons in Iraq, was dispatched to Abu Ghraib by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld last August. In a report marked secret, Miller recommended that military police at the prison be "actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation of the internees." After his plan was adopted, guards began depriving prisoners of sleep and food, subjecting them to painful "stress positions" and terrorizing them with dogs. A former Army intelligence officer tells Rolling Stone that the intent of Miller's report was clear to everyone involved: "It means treat the detainees like shit until they will sell their mother for a blanket, some food without bugs in it and some sleep."

How long can keep claiming this was a couple of "isolated incidents" caused by some "rotten apples"?

the democratic national convention is taking the spotlight now.
which would u rather hear about? a convention where everyone is rallying to gather votes, or about handful of people getting tortured?

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Originally posted by policerobots the democratic national convention is taking the spotlight now. which would u rather hear about? a convention where everyone is rallying to gather votes, or about handful of people getting tortured?

Eh? Well..why not both? Don't see why one should exclude the other. There is a possiblilty that more than one issue of political significance are happening at the same time so why not hear about all of them?

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Originally posted by dcential WTF, LET'S KEEP THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE HERE PEOPLE ARE MAD ABOUT DEGRADATION?? REMEMBER THESE TERRORISTS SAWED A MAN'S FUCKING HEAD OFF ON VIDEO. NOT A SOLDIER, OR A TERRORIST, BUT SOME CIVILIAN GUY. i so am tired of everyone bitching about how hard the terrorists have it in prison. that the friends of soldiers killed by these people arent being very kind to them, and that even though members of the same terrorist organization flew planes into buildings and killed thousands, we aren't giving them much humane treatment, or the respect they deserve. keep things in perspective.

In addition to ResonantDrag's comments, let's keep it into perspective that the majority of individuals that were tortured here were innocent Iraqi citizens who held no worthwhile information and were consequently freed, esp. after the scandal broke.

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