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People in the Military.

I wonder if anybody has the displeasure of being in the military service here.

It is said that strongest form of brainwashing in the world today is the type that occurs in the armed forces. Not only does this equip personel to do humanless acts whilst serving but also fail to live in society as decent members.

In Australia there has just been a case of 2 SAS soldiers being busted for trying to attack a pregnant ex-girlfriend with the aim of her losing the baby from the planned severe beating. The judge questioned the methods of training used with these soldiers because many other members have faced the courts on counts of severe anti-social behaviour. On top of that we've had so many drug scandals with soldiers and a major government enquiry into the suicide of a soldier whilst in training. This enquiry found a culture of abuse within the army.

I've read many psychological journals written that suggest that mammals killing their own kind is very unusual in all species, including humans, and massive amounts of mental conditioning needs to take place before it can be done.

I wonder what a member of the armed forces would do when faced with an order that defies his/her moral principles? Is there right or wrong, or is it just yes and no?

Hi Spec.

quote:

Originally posted by Ang ' ela_ie Hi Spec.

Hello beautiful,

this is quite a topical point of conversation in Australia at the moment, I listened to a full debate on the radio the other day.

media loves shit that goes against the military,... you never hear about all the good stuff that it does and with the US Army being the largest organization in the world there are bound to be bad apples...

quote:

Originally posted by Zewad media loves shit that goes against the military,... you never hear about all the good stuff that it does and with the US Army being the largest organization in the world there are bound to be bad apples...

true dat.



teh same could be said for any non military person. There are murders going on all the time without any military helping.



the type of 'brainwashing' that everyopne tlaks about that goes on in the military is training them to depend on their buddies, their unit. cause in the end it is not what you alone can do, it is what the group of people you are with can do.



so people cannot hang with it, some can, so you take the good with the bad.

quote:

Originally posted by Boomer187 so people cannot hang with it, some can, so you take the good with the bad.

i am bad

brainwashing = patriotism

quote:

Originally posted by -=M=- brainwashing = patriotism

I think your using the term brainwashing a little too loosely. but whatever

quote:

Originally posted by Zewad about all the good stuff that it does

like what? i know their are peacekeepers, but what else is "good" about an army?

quote:

Originally posted by Boomer187 I think your using the term brainwashing a little too loosely. but whatever

just think about it

quote:

Originally posted by Michael19 like what? i know their are peacekeepers, but what else is "good" about an army?

isnt that a big enough job for you?

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax isnt that a big enough job for you?

not really, considering they are very few peacekeeping missions. and only happen in a few african coutries and elsewhere.


and please god, dont try and say what america is doing in iraqi is peacekeeping.

I think the fact that there are few open conflicts is a testament as to "why" we have a military. Detection and prevention are also on the agenda.

Well, anyway you look at it...a military is necessary. It's a tough job with intense training which usually changes one as a person. I can see how some of the things you're talking about would come out of military training and it's unfortunate but I know with places like America at least, military service is optional.

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax I think the fact that there are few open conflicts is a testament as to "why" we have a military. Detection and prevention are also on the agenda.

but the miliatary arent involved in detection are they? would it not to be better off cutting down in some military spending and giving it to CIA or FBI who are the man guys in detection and prevention.


for example, the iraqi war has nothing to do with detection or prevention with anything related to America or American people.

quote:

Originally posted by Zewad media loves shit that goes against the military,... you never hear about all the good stuff that it does and with the US Army being the largest organization in the world there are bound to be bad apples...

In America it appears that not supporting the arms forces is totally unpatriotic, probably the worst possible offense. So even if you didn't support the war, it was common practise to support the military, or risk all sorts of abuse.

But with this ingrained bias aside, I think that the practises of the military are out of date, and with a new age leader hopefully they will change.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael19 but the miliatary arent involved in detection are they? would it not to be better off cutting down in some military spending and giving it to CIA or FBI who are the man guys in detection and prevention. for example, the iraqi war has nothing to do with detection or prevention with anything related to America or American people.

Iraqs an odd one, ill grant you that.

Part of the reason military spending is so astronomical is to make it so they have alternatives to getting their men shot and killed. R&D for unmanned projects and home clearing devices are a big thing. Alternative fuel sources for jets like the new planes that run off radiation from halfnium being exposed to xrays. They do a lot of stuff that isnt directly linked to killing people.

and I would say that the FBI and CIA are one of the most important parts of the military.

quote:

Originally posted by spec In America it appears that not supporting the arms forces is totally unpatriotic, probably the worst possible offense. So even if you didn't support the war, it was common practise to support the military, or risk all sorts of abuse. But with this ingrained bias aside, I think that the practises of the military are out of date, and with a new age leader hopefully they will change.

new age how?

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax Iraqs an odd one, ill grant you that. Part of the reason military spending is so astronomical is to make it so they have alternatives to getting their men shot and killed. R&D for unmanned projects and home clearing devices are a big thing. Alternative fuel sources for jets like the new planes that run off radiation from halfnium being exposed to xrays. They do a lot of stuff that isnt directly linked to killing people. and I would say that the FBI and CIA are one of the most important parts of the military.

is funding for FBI and CIA included in military funding?

No idea, actually

but im sure they are more than adequately funded, especially these days.

haha, well i am sure they are scrapping by on the money stakes!


also, back to the original point, i think the reason there is problem with the military is in the training and attitudes.

basic military men who just join up are usually young, and young men are always up for trouble. so when they get "Trained" i think it goes to there heads, and when you mix that with drink they think they are invincilbe and do tend to throw there weight around more.

quote:

Originally posted by -=M=- just think about it

I have, but when I do I can also term learning as being brainwashing.


I think it falls back on a negative attitude on military actions. When you leanr new things then, its called brainwashing.





and there is a lot more to the military than what you guys are talking about. most of my military friends are on peace keeping missions, peace killing missions, or anythign like that. Most go through training, meet tons o new friends, go to wierd places to train, then make a ton o money.



although I know zewads missions in oklahoma are pretty brutal :-p, you savage.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael19 basic military men who just join up are usually young, and young men are always up for trouble. so when they get "Trained" i think it goes to there heads, and when you mix that with drink they think they are invincilbe and do tend to throw there weight around more.

thats5 the main reaosn they want young people. They think they are invisible, and they can be easily trained the way they want them to be trained.



as you get older you start to quesiton things more, and you realise, you are not the toughest sob on the planet.....well with the exceptino of vivd boy.

Ive had to teach a couple of militants that there are people tougher than them that have always been civilians Part of it is good though, you dont want to have a whole bunch of people doubting their effectiveness before or during combat.

Marines tend to be the worst, just such meat head psychos. Ive had the largest # of incidents occur with marines.

Re: People in the Military.

quote:

Originally posted by spec I wonder if anybody has the displeasure of being in the military service here. It is said that strongest form of brainwashing in the world today is the type that occurs in the armed forces. Not only does this equip personel to do humanless acts whilst serving but also fail to live in society as decent members. In Australia there has just been a case of 2 SAS soldiers being busted for trying to attack a pregnant ex-girlfriend with the aim of her losing the baby from the planned severe beating. The judge questioned the methods of training used with these soldiers because many other members have faced the courts on counts of severe anti-social behaviour. On top of that we've had so many drug scandals with soldiers and a major government enquiry into the suicide of a soldier whilst in training. This enquiry found a culture of abuse within the army. I've read many psychological journals written that suggest that mammals killing their own kind is very unusual in all species, including humans, and massive amounts of mental conditioning needs to take place before it can be done. I wonder what a member of the armed forces would do when faced with an order that defies his/her moral principles? Is there right or wrong, or is it just yes and no?

I'll reserve comment for the orignal thread. I'm retired from the military, continue to work for the military as a civilian, and take offense about your generalizations that anyone in service is brainwashed. We are highly disciplined and obediently follow orders which civilians can't understand when our very lives can be in jeopardy by doing so. Killing other combatants in a wartime environ is humanless. The people you kill are trying to kill you as well. Killing people in general is not acceptable although collateral deaths occur when innocents get in the way of fighting. US troops are given ethical training routinely about the laws of land warfare to prevent occurences of the slaughter of innocents such as Mei Lei in Vietnam. Basically the training reiterates that you shouldn't intentionally be killing noncombatants regardless of the orders of a superior which is inherently and morally wrong. The US inculcates a Values system of training as well to instill right from wrong in its troops. Of course no system is infallible and you have transgressions such as the Abu Gharib prison abuse which belies the teachings and training the soldiers were brought up in. To counter your arguments, I would point out that the incidents of abuse or transgression of the rules pertaining to noncombatants are very few and far between in the ongoing war. I'd also like to point out that the barbaric beheading of military and noncombatant prisoners without trial or due process speaks volumes about the differences between the conduct of our soldiers and that of the insurgents in Iraq and elsewhere.
Don't criticize the military if you only pretend to know the culture.


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