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-- Why is this even news?

Why is this even news?

This woman wants to make the shirts illegal?? You see? this is the slippery slope of our hate crime laws. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech whether you agree with it or not. Too bad if it offends someone. You can't please all of the people all of the time. Just because someone is offended by something shouldn't mean it is illegal. This woman just offended me but you don't see me asking to ban her piehole now do you?

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It�s hard to imagine a piece of clothing could stir up many emotions. But that�s exactly what�s happening in St. Catharines, where a T-shirt is raising both questions and the ire of demonstrators. The offending covering sports the image of a bloody hammer and is emblazoned with the words, �She was asking for it�. Protestors who saw the message in the window of Cherry Bomb, an alternative clothing store, were outraged, insisting it encourages violence against women. �To us, it's sending a message that violence is okay and that it's okay for the perpetrator to blame the victim," contends Gillian Dooley, who runs the only women�s shelter in the city. But the store owners note they�ve been selling the traumatic �T� for a year with no complaints until now, indicating there�s a similar version out for women, with the same symbol, and the legend �He had it coming�. And in an irony apparently lost on the objectors - the business is actually owned and operated by women. �I'm sorry we've offended people but there's a lot of people that don't see it in that light, don't see that a bunch of women are trying to promote violence against women,� reposts Kirstin Falle. But Dooley doesn�t buy it � or the shirt. �We feel it should be classified as a hate crime and banned,� she demands. The controversy has even reached Queen�s Park, where Attorney General Michael Bryant insists it�s up to local authorities to decide if the message contravenes the hate law. In the meantime, the merchants of venom are reaping the rewards of that old adage about saying anything, but spelling the name right. The store only sold 20 of the shirts over the last year. Since the controversy broke several days ago, at least 25 have already been snapped up. Apparently, many are literally "asking for it".

i agree with you.

this is just stupid.

like a shirt is going to make anyone beat their girlfriends or whatever.

the only thing the shirt does is make whoever is wearing it look stupid. so why is it offending so many people?

like anyone would be proud to show that they really beat their wife. ha.

i like the girl's version with the scissors.

and seriously this has been on the news way too much. every second story is about this shirt. fuck, we get it.

^^^You tell em' Gosia!

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Originally posted by StereoPrincess i agree with you. this is just stupid. like a shirt is going to make anyone beat their girlfriends or whatever. the only thing the shirt does is make whoever is wearing it look stupid. so why is it offending so many people? like anyone would be proud to show that they really beat their wife. ha. i like the girl's version with the scissors. and seriously this has been on the news way too much. every second story is about this shirt. fuck, we get it.

This was exactly my point in an earlier thread about Ernst Zundel's anti-jewish website. He went to jail for that.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 This was exactly my point in an earlier thread about Ernst Zundel's anti-jewish website. He went to jail for that.

I'm sorry, i didn't see that thread, and I'm a little too lazy to look it up. What exactly were you saying about Ernst Zundel? were you arguing that he shouldn't have gone to jail for the HATE LITERATURE that he wrote? The fact that the man preaches hate against an identifiable group is the reason he went to jail.

I am saying that unless he is guilty of directly inciting violence, he should be free to speak his mind. I find his messages disturbing at best but I don't have to listen if I don't want to. I can log off of his website if i wish.

I'm not dfending this guy's views in the least but just because we may disagree or get offended with holcaust denial doesn't mean we should make his opinion illegal. This goes against the very reason we liberated Germany from the Nazi regime in the first place! And now they try to apply this law to Tshirts? Whats next???

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Originally posted by Jayx1 I am saying that unless he is guilty of directly inciting violence, he should be free to speak his mind. I find his messages disturbing at best but I don't have to listen if I don't want to. I can log off of his website if i wish. I'm not dfending this guy's views in the least but just because we may disagree or get offended with holcaust denial doesn't mean we should make his opinion illegal. This goes against the very reason we liberated Germany from the Nazi regime in the first place! And now they try to apply this law to Tshirts? Whats next???

I don't exactly know what his viewpoints are but if his opinions promote causing harm to another based on race, then it's only right he should be censored.

You're probably smart enough not to let his viewpoints influence how you think, but his ideology can affect a few gullible people.

The t-shirt is meant as a joke so you can't really compare.

If these people are gullible, then they have become part of the problem long before they ever read anything by zundel.

why make such a bad taste t-shirt in the first place?

imo, we live in a society and some people don't know thier limits. I mean who would find this funny other than an idiot?

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Originally posted by bass drive why make such a bad taste t-shirt in the first place? imo, we live in a society and some people don't know thier limits. I mean who would find this funny other than an idiot?

but idiots run our economy. so anything that is good enough for an idiot is good for all of us.

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Originally posted by bass drive why make such a bad taste t-shirt in the first place? imo, we live in a society and some people don't know thier limits. I mean who would find this funny other than an idiot?

But should the law define what is funny and what isn't? This is what I am getting at. Don't use the law to try and mould opinions and humour. To do this would be dangerous to any free society.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 If these people are gullible, then they have become part of the problem long before they ever read anything by zundel.

yeah, most likely...but opinions like zundel's can be the spark that ignites them to violate other people's right to live. Yes, people really need to be educated but that's easier said than done. Until then, hate propaganda should be censored.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 But should the law define what is funny and what isn't? This is what I am getting at. Don't use the law to try and mould opinions and humour. To do this would be dangerous to any free society.

what other alternative do you have? the only alternative I can think of is "fear of God" or religion, but we all know that's history

that t-shirt is fuken fuked up! i kno only this country/US could think of making something like that! disturbing man..and im sure thats not the worst shirt they got..

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Originally posted by EvilDust yeah, most likely...but opinions like zundel's can be the spark that ignites them to violate other people's right to live. Yes, people really need to be educated but that's easier said than done. Until then, hate propaganda should be censored.

Ok, well here is an example.

what if i commit a crime against you. right now i dont know the colour of your skin because you are behind a computer. But i go ahead and commit a crime against you for whatever reason. Now it turns out you are a religious or ethnic minority and im a white guy. What this law says is in effect that i committed this crime against you BECAUSE you are whatever race you happen to be. Whats more is that i have yet to hear of this law being applied in the reverse. Meanwhile we all know that hate is a two-way street. Why isn't louis farakahn in jail for his hatred of whites and jews?

Censoring thought through law is exactly what the regimes of hitler and stalin etc did in the past. This is why we fought in wars to keep our country free. Freedom of thought and freedom of religion should ALWAYS be respected. If someone is driven to a crime based on what they read on a website then they should be prosecuted for the crime just as if they had been influenced by their friend, the tv some dellusion they had etc. In the end it is the person perpetrating the crime who is at fault, not some guy who denied the holocaust on a website.

Let's turn the tables. Imagine if the government now told you that beleiving that jews were equal was illegal because the official line from the government is that they arent. Even though you truely believe that they are the government says that its fiction and thus you may not state your belief or risk jail (or worse). This is exactly what the Nazis did in WW2.

Freedom of speech must provide for all ideas to be expressed freely regardless of what the majority thinks. Again, i find Zundel's thinking disgusting as I do this Tshirt, but what's even more disgusting is the call to ban this expression in a supposed free society. If you don't like the message, don't listen. Those who listen are already predisposed to this type of thought anyways.

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Originally posted by bass drive what other alternative do you have? the only alternative I can think of is "fear of God" or religion, but we all know that's history

The alternative is prosecuting crimes under the existing criminal code. Let people say all they want. If it becomes harrasment we have laws for that.

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Originally posted by nycionx that t-shirt is fuken fuked up! i kno only this country/US could think of making something like that! disturbing man..and im sure thats not the worst shirt they got..

Only in Canada/US would this make top story on the 6 oclock news

ahhhh, another example of a woman meddling and
making a big deal of nothing.
let alone the fact ITS NONE OF HER BUSINESS

quote:

Originally posted by EvilDust yeah, most likely...but opinions like zundel's can be the spark that ignites them to violate other people's right to live. Yes, people really need to be educated but that's easier said than done. Until then, hate propaganda should be censored.

AND JUST HOW DO YOU KNOW ITS 'PROPAGANDA'? THINK ABOUT THAT ONE FOOL. LOL. YOU CAN'T. CAUSE YOUR A SHEEP. PATHETIC.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Ok, well here is an example. what if i commit a crime against you. right now i dont know the colour of your skin because you are behind a computer. But i go ahead and commit a crime against you for whatever reason. Now it turns out you are a religious or ethnic minority and im a white guy. What this law says is in effect that i committed this crime against you BECAUSE you are whatever race you happen to be. Whats more is that i have yet to hear of this law being applied in the reverse. Meanwhile we all know that hate is a two-way street. Why isn't louis farakahn in jail for his hatred of whites and jews?

That should depend on your intent and knowledge. If you never knew what my ethnic background is, then why would the justice system say you were driven to do it because of that? You'd have to have a horrible lawyer if you get labeled as racist from that.

I don't know what Farakhan has been saying, but if he is advocating the killing of whites and jews because of their race, then yes, he should be in jail.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Censoring thought through law is exactly what the regimes of hitler and stalin etc did in the past. This is why we fought in wars to keep our country free. Freedom of thought and freedom of religion should ALWAYS be respected. If someone is driven to a crime based on what they read on a website then they should be prosecuted for the crime just as if they had been influenced by their friend, the tv some dellusion they had etc. In the end it is the person perpetrating the crime who is at fault, not some guy who denied the holocaust on a website.

Freedom of religion should ALWAYS be respected exactly. A guy that influences the masses to kill Jews is clearly violating this, don't you think? Like I said, I don't know what he said (I'll research that later, no time right now) but if all he was doing is denying the holocaust, then he was wrongly punished.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Let's turn the tables. Imagine if the government now told you that beleiving that jews were equal was illegal because the official line from the government is that they arent. Even though you truely believe that they are the government says that its fiction and thus you may not state your belief or risk jail (or worse). This is exactly what the Nazis did in WW2.

Yes, that's what the Nazis did and our government system will never let this happen again. Let me ask this then, don't you think the holocaust could have been prevented if Hitler's ideas were censored?

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Freedom of speech must provide for all ideas to be expressed freely regardless of what the majority thinks. Again, i find Zundel's thinking disgusting as I do this Tshirt, but what's even more disgusting is the call to ban this expression in a supposed free society. If you don't like the message, don't listen. Those who listen are already predisposed to this type of thought anyways.

Look, I'm all for freedom of speech but not when it violates equal rights and respect for life.

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