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Weather Vane Kerry

Kerry quotes...

Personally this fuckin' scares the hell out of me.
Who the hell wants a wishy-washy president??

-- "I'll never give a veto to any country over our security. But . . ."

-- "I believe in being strong and resolute and determined. And I will hunt down and kill the terrorists, wherever they are. But . . ."

-- "We have to be steadfast and resolved, and I am. And I will succeed for those troops, now that we're there. We have to succeed. We can't leave a failed Iraq. But . . ."

-- "I believe that we have to win this. The president and I have always agreed on that. And from the beginning, I did vote to give the authority, because I thought Saddam Hussein was a threat, and I did accept that intelligence. But . . ."

-- "I have nothing but respect for the British, Tony Blair, and for what they've been willing to do. But . . ."

-- "What I want to do is change the dynamics on the ground. And you have to do that by beginning to not back off of the Fallujahs and other places, and send the wrong message to the terrorists. You have to close the borders. You've got to show you're serious in that regard. But . . ."

-- "I couldn't agree more that the Iraqis want to be free and that they could be free. But . . ."

-- "No president, through all of American history, has ever ceded, and nor would I, the right to pre-empt in any way necessary to protect the United States of America. But . . ."

-- "I've never wavered in my life. I know exactly what we need to do in Iraq, and my position has been consistent: Saddam Hussein is a threat. He needed to be disarmed. We needed to go to the U.N. The president needed the authority to use force in order to be able to get him to do something, because he never did it without the threat of force. But . . ."

WHOA!!

An anti-kerry post from someone in CANADA!

*Phew* gimmie a few mins to catch my breath here

With all due respect man, that post was absolutely un-informative...we don't know what he's saying after the BUT for Christ's sake!! How are we to know whether he should be chastized or not if you don't post the entire quote next time...A BUT after a statement does not necessarily imply that he's about to contradict himself or anything along those lines...When will people realize that not everything is black and white...you can have a general framework layed out that you attempt to follow, but there are ALWAYS cases when diverging from the existing framework regarding issue x or y is necessary...thus the BUT...

The word 'BUT' implies contradiction , exception and change of thought...

Show me a sentence where it doesn't then?

You HAVE to be kidding me.

I love to have sex, but I love to eat more. Any contradiction there? I see none.

Futhermore, I was merely stressing the fact that there are ALWAYS exceptions to every rule you lay down within a certain framework, which would warrant a BUT and which would not be equivalent to me being wishy washy on a certain subject, which was clearly what you wanted to demonstrate in this post of yours. For instance, if you ask me whether I support capital punishment, I'd initially say absolutely not. Then I'd add a BUT, in exceptional circumstances such as a serial killer who has absolutely no chance at being rehabilitated into society like a normal human being, I'd consider the death penalty...does that mean I'm wishy washy on the death penalty??? Personally, I don't think so.

So again, how are we to know anything about Kerry's wishy washiness from this post if you truncate the rest of the quote?

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r The word 'BUT' implies contradiction , exception and change of thought... Show me a sentence where it doesn't then?

meh- im too hung over to deal with this but jesus h christ...

Good thread indeed

quote:

Originally posted by Epicurus You HAVE to be kidding me. I love to have sex, but I love to eat more. Any contradiction there? I see none.

No but there is change in thought which was exactly my point.

quote:

Futhermore, I was merely stressing the fact that there are ALWAYS exceptions to every rule you lay down within a certain framework, which would warrant a BUT and which would not be equivalent to me being wishy washy on a certain subject, which was clearly what you wanted to demonstrate in this post of yours. For instance, if you ask me whether I support capital punishment, I'd initially say absolutely not. Then I'd add a BUT, in exceptional circumstances such as a serial killer who has absolutely no chance at being rehabilitated into society like a normal human being, I'd consider the death penalty...does that mean I'm wishy washy on the death penalty??? Personally, I don't think so.

Personally, I'd say yes.
I mean, either you do or you don't; why build in an exception?
Stand for something or fall for everything.

quote:

So again, how are we to know anything about Kerry's wishy washiness from this post if you truncate the rest of the quote?

Good question and believe it or not; an answer.
>> Source <<

quote:

No but there is change in thought which was exactly my point.

Sure, but is there a change of thought that would make me wishy washy, which was the intent of this thread??? NO. Thus, using a BUT is not tantamount to being wishy washy, which is MY point.

quote:

Personally, I'd say yes. I mean, either you do or you don't; why build in an exception? Stand for something or fall for everything.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. When will people understand that thinking along the above lines is SIMPLETON thinking. It's absolutely primitive. Again, I don't mean to bash you in particular, simply making a general statement.

Usually, people attempt to simplify all their positions, opinions and so forth to fit them into little nice theoretical boxes so that they can then use them to live their lives, to guide them in daily life if you will...which is fine usually. However, when certain circumstances arise that force you to actually think and reconsider your position, people (such as yourself) start crying about wishy washiness because they didn't hold true to the little theoretical construct. Life is more complicated than that.

omg....

"most people dont like war, BUT in some circumstances its necessairly."

it would imo be stupid to to say that something is always wrong or always right, there are always exceptions.

quote:

"most people dont like war, BUT in some circumstances its necessairly."

Thanks St. Andrew, that's an even better example

quote:

Originally posted by Epicurus Sure, but is there a change of thought that would make me wishy washy, which was the intent of this thread??? NO. Thus, using a BUT is not tantamount to being wishy washy, which is MY point.

but in the context of the title of the thread, we are in fact, referring to Kerry and his flip-flopping which is widely accepted as being his biggest problem...

quote:

Kerry and his flip-flopping which is widely accepted as being his biggest problem...

Widely accepted by who??? Conservatives?

Furthermore, and more to the point, the POINT of your thread was to demonstrate an instance of this wishy-washy behaviour now wasn't it? Thus, you can't use, as a starting assumption the fact that he's wishy washy to justify the interpretation of the BUTs being used!!! That's called begging the question, and obviously constitutes an erroneous argument. I'm sounding like Diginut here, but you get the point

From what I've been reading (even though yes, I do swing to the right of center, pretty weird eh?) Kerry has great debating skills but doesn't appear to give whole, concrete answers.
Shouldn't a leader (in any forum) have a solid foundation for which they represent?

Of those conservatives that choose to dissect Kerry verbatim-adnaseum, there is one constant; Kerry's indecision on certain policies.

Just about any Googling will prove the point but just for humour's sake...

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/kerry_57positions.jpg

Do they post the ends of those sentences? I'll try one.

For example:

"I'll never give a veto to any country over our security. But . . ."

But...It important to try diplomacy with the U.N. for longer than George Bush did so that I can get elected, when in truth I've said on a number of occasions that I'd make the exact same decisions today that I made over the last 4 years that Dubya's been in office.

Fun, ain't it!

"I'll never give a veto to any country over our security. But I also know how to lead those alliances."

source

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew "I'll never give a veto to any country over our security. But I also know how to lead those alliances." source

Sounds like a pie in the sky to me. I was reading between the lines based on his track record.

quote:

"I'll never give a veto to any country over our security. But I also know how to lead those alliances."

Alright, I think that puts a nail in this thread's coffin. Wishy Washy flip flopper based on THIS? I think not. Anyway, next...

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew "I'll never give a veto to any country over our security. But I also know how to lead those alliances." source

Unfortunately, he's speaking hypothetically.
It would be nice to think that though.

Trying to gain trust with a "world-public opinion" poll such as the U.N. is like trying to herd cats.
Kerry makes is sound so simple...coming from the same man who voted yes in the Senate to authorize the use of force in Iraq and then decides that he opposes the operation...

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r No but ....

Someone is catching on...

I saw Kerry's long nails 2weeks ago on tv
on the debate they were short...

Kerry flip flops

quote:

Originally posted by ZinG I saw Kerry's long nails 2weeks ago on tv on the debate they were short... Kerry flip flops

Somewhat humourous (I suppose) but unproductive...
Anything you'd really like to add?

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Just about any Googling will prove the point but just for humour's sake...

oh so true

Alright, this thread is getting tiresome. The point of your thread was to show that Kerry is a flip-flopper based on the QUOTES that you posted. Because the quotes were truncated, you haven't shown what you intended in the first place because of our discussion about the use of "BUT" and because, as St. Andrew pointed, they are completely misleading unless the entire statement is posted.

Now, the GENERAL question of Kerry being a flip-flopper, regardless of THIS particular post and the quotes you posted is another SEPERATE issue. Now, to back your point, you're pointing out OTHER material than the quotes you posted, and that's a separate topic that has been discussed numerous times before. Personally, I think occ did a good job of debunking all that non-sense about Kerry flip-flopping, and for kicks, posted some Bush hypocrisy. I suggest you take a look HERE before starting the "never burried 6 feet under" topic of Kerry's waivering and flip-flopping.

As for what YOU posted to start this thread, it does not amount to any sort of proof or evidence as to Kerry's flip-floppiness.

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