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European freedom Vs. North American freedom

Okay so now I haven�t lived in USA, but do live in Canada atm and everyone tells me that it is pretty much the same all over North America, so I write this on the assumption that that is right (correct me if I am wrong).

Americans tend to say that they live in THE country of freedom, yet I don�t find it that free. You do have better free speech rights than most of Europe (where hate speech is banned in many countries), you also have a greater �right to own� etc. However, there are many freedoms that I enjoy in Europe that you don�t really have here. There are so many laws and restrictions on so many things that should be out of the government�s interest. Everyday I think of several things that I should have been able to do in Europe, but not aloud to do here. Of course, now when I am writing this I cannot think of too many, but one obvious example are your high schools. People there have no freedom at all, and treated like they were 7 years old rebels. Another example that comes to my mind is my other thread about school buses, that people would never let their children be on a public transport system cause �there are too many dangerous people out there�. Those kinds of things are also a big lack of freedom, as well as the right to marry whoever you want () etc.

I am sure that someone that has lived in booth Europe (not all countries are like this though) and North America know what I am speaking about.

Discuss

i would say that the individual person has more freedom in Croatia than in America... Though, I don't think civil liberties there are as closely respected as they are here...

just my 2 cents worth of opinion.

>JM<

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Originally posted by JM i would say that the individual person has more freedom in Croatia than in America... Though, I don't think civil liberties there are as closely respected as they are here... just my 2 cents worth of opinion. >JM<

Right but what about Western Europe? Croatia is just getting over communism, civil war, and ethnic tensions.

When you have the peaceful transfer of power in a country divided 51-48....I find that as a freedom loving country.

Re: European freedom Vs. North American freedom

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Okay so now I haven�t lived in USA, but do live in Canada atm and everyone tells me that it is pretty much the same all over North America, so I write this on the assumption that that is right (correct me if I am wrong). Americans tend to say that they live in THE country of freedom, yet I don�t find it that free. You do have better free speech rights than most of Europe (where hate speech is banned in many countries), you also have a greater �right to own� etc. However, there are many freedoms that I enjoy in Europe that you don�t really have here. There are so many laws and restrictions on so many things that should be out of the government�s interest. Everyday I think of several things that I should have been able to do in Europe, but not aloud to do here. Of course, now when I am writing this I cannot think of too many, but one obvious example are your high schools. People there have no freedom at all, and treated like they were 7 years old rebels. Another example that comes to my mind is my other thread about school buses, that people would never let their children be on a public transport system cause �there are too many dangerous people out there�. Those kinds of things are also a big lack of freedom, as well as the right to marry whoever you want () etc. I am sure that someone that has lived in booth Europe (not all countries are like this though) and North America know what I am speaking about. Discuss

It is not a lack of freedom, it is common sense for child safety. Would you let your child on the same bus that a rapist or child molester would be on? Also high schools have to have limitations of freedom because of violence. I know in a few schools here they have to put metal detectors and armed guards on the roofs, kids arent allowed to carry backpacks because students have been known to carry guns or weapons and stab or shoot other kids. It is just a fact of life in our time. You have to give up certain freedoms to be safer. I don't really notice much loss of freedom that you suggest, but I have never been to Europe either so I have nothing to compare against.

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Originally posted by speedracer_mec When you have the peaceful transfer of power in a country divided 51-48....I find that as a freedom loving country.

That has nothing to do with Freedom. Nice try though.

Re: Re: European freedom Vs. North American freedom

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil It is not a lack of freedom, it is common sense for child safety. Would you let your child on the same bus that a rapist or child molester would be on? Also high schools have to have limitations of freedom because of violence. I know in a few schools here they have to put metal detectors and armed guards on the roofs, kids arent allowed to carry backpacks because students have been known to carry guns or weapons and stab or shoot other kids. It is just a fact of life in our time. You have to give up certain freedoms to be safer. I don't really notice much loss of freedom that you suggest, but I have never been to Europe either so I have nothing to compare against.

Well, this is pretty much what i mean. Since you for some reason (im not taking up the debate as to why here) have more criminals and so, you must also have a lot of laws and restrictions, which i who is not used to that, see as BIG restrictions to my freedom. and i would never say that the US or Canada is more free than europe, who many people in the US seems to imply.

Re: Re: European freedom Vs. North American freedom

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil It is not a lack of freedom, it is common sense for child safety. Would you let your child on the same bus that a rapist or child molester would be on? Also high schools have to have limitations of freedom because of violence. I know in a few schools here they have to put metal detectors and armed guards on the roofs, kids arent allowed to carry backpacks because students have been known to carry guns or weapons and stab or shoot other kids. It is just a fact of life in our time. You have to give up certain freedoms to be safer. I don't really notice much loss of freedom that you suggest, but I have never been to Europe either so I have nothing to compare against.

In Cleveland because the public schools are so poor they are talking about stopping the school bus services and just haveing kids take the RTA (public buses). Of course lots of people are complaining that it is not safe but as far as I know they are going to do it next year.

On a different note, I believe the argument for lossing freedoms to increase safty may be valid but the fact of the matter is that freedoms are being restricted. I have visted Europe a couple times (England, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and Italy) and in the brief stays I did not notice mich of a difference in freedoms. I feel that the examples that St_Andrew gave really relate to the social realities (and differences) more than freedom. While I don't here about European schools with shootings and metal detectors I bet that if those were big problems they might do some of the same things we do in the US to stop them. (I am not trying to get into why this is only a problem in the US).

It might have been true in the past that America was more free than most places in the world, but no so much any more.

You can smoke pot in Amsterdam, you can't in the US. You can say anything you want in America, you can't in some places in Europe.

The details might be a little different but on the larger picture its pretty much all the same.

Re: Re: Re: European freedom Vs. North American freedom

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Well, this is pretty much what i mean. Since you for some reason (im not taking up the debate as to why here) have more criminals and so, you must also have a lot of laws and restrictions, which i who is not used to that, see as BIG restrictions to my freedom. and i would never say that the US or Canada is more free than europe, who many people in the US seems to imply.

This was never a contest of freedoms of the USA vs. Europe, and I don't know where that was implied. We are very proud of being a free country, hence why we have it in our slogan "land of the free", and I am very sure the millions of people who came from non free countries to ours to start a new life are proud of it too.

Of course we tout freedom, because a lot of people on this planet don't have any basic freedoms that you or I can enjoy such as reading a newspaper, having a job, saying what we want, protesting, etc. I think freedom is fine until it starts to endanger the lives of people, then it needs rules and laws.

Re: European freedom Vs. North American freedom

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Everyday I think of several things that I should have been able to do in Europe, but not aloud to do here. Of course, now when I am writing this I cannot think of too many, but one obvious example are your high schools. People there have no freedom at all, and treated like they were 7 years old rebels.

Specifically, what do you mean? Examples? I'm guessing that is probably quite dependent on the high-school. Public or private? Prep school? Military School? Demographics? What specific experiences are you referring to?

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Another example that comes to my mind is my other thread about school buses, that people would never let their children be on a public transport system cause �there are too many dangerous people out there�. Those kinds of things are also a big lack of freedom, as well as the right to marry whoever you want () etc.

Again, I can only surmise that this is a generalization based on some experience that you've had in Canada? I'm curious for some examples as I've never been to Canada(or Sweden for that matter), so I don't really have a basis for comparison. What is it that you've encountered that is so different from your European experience?

Re: Re: Re: Re: European freedom Vs. North American freedom

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil This was never a contest of freedoms of the USA vs. Europe, and I don't know where that was implied. We are very proud of being a free country, hence why we have it in our slogan "land of the free", and I am very sure the millions of people who came from non free countries to ours to start a new life are proud of it too.

not in this thread in particular, but in general i hear it often, esp on this forum...

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Of course we tout freedom, because a lot of people on this planet don't have any basic freedoms that you or I can enjoy such as reading a newspaper, having a job, saying what we want, protesting, etc. I think freedom is fine until it starts to endanger the lives of people, then it needs rules and laws.

we probably agree here, just never let the paranoia get too big... which i think it does here sometimes...

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Originally posted by speedracer_mec When you have the peaceful transfer of power in a country divided 51-48....I find that as a freedom loving country.

shutup you retarded hick

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: European freedom Vs. North American freedom

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Originally posted by St_Andrew we probably agree here, just never let the paranoia get too big... which i think it does here sometimes...

Not sure what the paranoia is. Perhaps a bit paranoid of being attacked, and rightly so, but of freedom?

I think what happens is that we see that people in North Korea, in Africa, in Iraq, formerly Afghanistan, etc have no real rights, even though as a human basic rights should exist. It is hard, even as an "arrogant" nation as you would probably call us, to see this and have the entire world just turn it's cheek at it, as thought the people of those countries should just deal with it because it was imposed on them with no say whatsoever. They don't need European freedom or American freedom, just basic freedoms at the least.

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Originally posted by TuanAnh213 shutup you retarded hick

+1

Re: Re: European freedom Vs. North American freedom

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Originally posted by Shakka Again, I can only surmise that this is a generalization based on some experience that you've had in Canada?

Don't what the hell St_Andrew is talking about...
Kids take public transportation just as much as the school bus around here...(Toronto)

In America you have freedom to choose what you do with your life and equality, however the success among all people is not equal, otherwise we wouldn't be capitalist. Hence, the notion that if you work hard you'll move up is not completely accurate.

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Originally posted by TruffleShuffle In America you have freedom to choose what you do with your life and equality

I posted this articlefrom The Register a while ago:

quote:

A 15 year-old American girl has been charged with child pornography offences after posting pictures of herself online. The unnamed teenager is accused of sending photos of herself "in various states of undress and performing a variety of sexual acts" to people she met in online chat rooms, AP reports. Police found dozens of inappropriate photos when they seized the girl's PC. The teenager has been charged with the possession and distribution of child pornography as well as the sexual abuse of children.

To me, this is not having the freedom to do what you want to do.

WRT the original question, I would say that anser depends on what country in Europe you compare with what state in the US. Take Mississippi vs. The Netherlands and California vs. Greece and you will see that the answer changes from one to the other.

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Originally posted by speedracer_mec When you have the peaceful transfer of power in a country divided 51-48....I find that as a freedom loving country.

Congratulations. You'v now managed to somehow connect a non-antibush thread to a bush topic, moron.

USA is not free btw, when the day comes that i can go up to that twat called dubya, and i can *freely* tell him FUCK YOU, and get away with it, then itll be "freedom of speech"

Personally I have to say that I've noticed US high schools being much more restrictive than Croatian ones. I remember that in the US you weren't allowed to wear t-shirts with "offensive" slogans. Here nobody really bothered to read what it says on the shirt anyway. But then again, I've been living in North Dakota and I'm not sure if that's representative enough of the US as a whole...

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Personally I have to say that I've noticed US high schools being much more restrictive than Croatian ones. I remember that in the US you weren't allowed to wear t-shirts with "offensive" slogans. Here nobody really bothered to read what it says on the shirt anyway. But then again, I've been living in North Dakota and I'm not sure if that's representative enough of the US as a whole...

the more u provoke someone not to do something, the more likely they are to rebel. americans just dont get it.

owning guns at 16 years of age? hey no problem!

idiots.

Well I guess I can provide a unique opinion since I lived in America for 21 years, then the last 4 in Italy.

I would agree with the pretense of America has the "Illusion" of Freedom. However, what it does have is religious freedom. That's really what the forefathers meant by "Land of the Free" - they were sick of religion being forced onto them from European countries.

Now, with that said - I think anyone that has been to Italy, Spain, France - would agree that you are pretty much "born" Catholic in these countries. So, from that perspective, America has done well in allowing it's citizens to freely choose for themselves in what they want to believe.

The downside to this, in my opinion, is that Atheism and evolutionary theory are being taught to people in the system much similiar to the way European countries are taught to be Catholic. It hasn't got to the point of that yet - but I think it's sloping towards it. While a good portion of the atheist population considers themselves "educated" - they've been, in my opinion, victim of yet another government approved belief system. It's not as black as white as it used to be (believe or die mentality) - but it's in a grey area in between.

Anyway, just my opinion on religious freedoms in Europe and America.

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Originally posted by trancaholic I posted this articlefrom The Register a while ago: quote: quote: A 15 year-old American girl has been charged with child pornography offences after posting pictures of herself online. The unnamed teenager is accused of sending photos of herself "in various states of undress and performing a variety of sexual acts" to people she met in online chat rooms, AP reports. Police found dozens of inappropriate photos when they seized the girl's PC. The teenager has been charged with the possession and distribution of child pornography as well as the sexual abuse of children. To me, this is not having the freedom to do what you want to do.

That depends on your view of American society. Food for thought from the people who helped form the nation:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." -- Benjamin Franklin

"To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea." -- James Madison

"Bad men cannot make good citizens. It is when a people forget God that tyrants forge their chains. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, is incompatible with freedom." -- Patrick Henry

"Liberty can no more exist without virtue and independence than the body can live and move without a soul." -- John Adams

"What is liberty without wisdom and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint." -- Edmund Burke

"And what is this liberty which must lie in the hearts of men and women? It is not the ruthless, the unbridled will; it is not freedom to do as one likes. That is the denial of liberty, and leads straight to its overthrow. A society in which men recognize no check upon their freedom soon becomes a society where freedom is the possession of only a savage few; as we have learned to our sorrow." -- Judge Learned Hand (1872-1961)

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Originally posted by kamil USA is not free btw, when the day comes that i can go up to that twat called dubya, and i can *freely* tell him FUCK YOU, and get away with it, then itll be "freedom of speech"

Everybody write down in your personal dictionaries what the *true* definition of "freedom of speech" is.

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Originally posted by imokruok Food for thought from the people who helped form the nation:

Well, I don't buy into the philosophy that sex, porn, and excitement are essentially bad, and ought to be tolerated only to the extend necessary for the continuation of the human race. Unless the people on the girl's mailinglist are not there of their own free will, I see nothing in her actions that is bad. And even if the recipients of her photos are victims of spamming, that in no way justifies the charge of sexual abuse of children.

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