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Trance Chords & Scales

Musical Theory Question for ya!

I've been producing now for around 3 years, though 70% of my productions have been remixes as I've never really been happy with the chord progressions in my mixes.

So I've decided to delve a bit deeper into music theory and was wondering if someone could advise me on the best type of scales to use for Trance.

I understand that Minors are a plus point, but what about the different scales. Are there particular scales that suit Trance music???

Should I stick to standard Major/Minor scales, or try using different scales such as Harmonic Minors or Melodic Minors.

Im sure someones going to want to post that its all down to what sounds good etc, tho that doesn't really help.

Any1 got any points? In the same situation?

(Un)fortunately, music is not just about what works on paper. It's very much a hands-on art and that extends to all aspects of it. In music, the best way to learn is to do. So just try it out! Make your own experiences as to what sounds good and what doesn't. I know, you want a formula or a recipe, but trust me, there is none.

I knew I was gunna get this sort of reply.

I understand that allready, but Im not asking about 'MUSIC', I'm asking about 'TRANCE'.

There are certain rules (loose ones) that Trance follows, and I am wondering if there are any to do with certain scales.

Please can someone advise, without giving the obvious answer!

You just don't seem to understand: there is no recipe "use this scale and that key and bake in the oven for 2 hours".

Also, TRANCE is a kind of MUSIC. I don't even know what that comment was about.

@ManTrance:

I understand your question`. I just know that in Psytrance often phrygian scales are used. But I don`t know if there are typical scales different to the common minor/major in trance too.

@wayfinder:

Of course you can`t take some rules and some paper and hope you write down a No 1 Hit (even though some crazy freaks like Bach or Beethoven made some nice tracks this way ;-) ) But I think it can be useful to analyze music to make its character more obvious.

Music becomes boring when it follows rules.

The way I create a chord progression is usually start with some strings, play a standard chord, say E-flat-minor, and stick with that scale, hold the chord for a bar, then change to another chord which follows on nicely. Work for either 4 bars or 8 bars. Maybe 4 bars played twice with some variation on the 2nd is a good way to go.

You want the chords to feel right when it comes back to the first chord, so maybe add a 7th chord for tension. Then a good thing to try after you've got something you're happy with, is to invert the chords so the notes spaces aren't so big between the chords.

This is how I usually work, then I build a bassline around it.

Give it a try, everyone's different though, so you may not feel comfortable working this way.

A nice (FREE!) book:

http://www.completechords.com/Pages..._Full_Index.htm

As much as people might try to tell you otherwise, there are standards for every genre of music, that if you follow you will create a standard piece of music for that genre (look at DnB for example - yeah sounds great but its all exactly the same stuff, just produced differently)

For trance tho-

Minor keys without the sharpened 7th is what you want to get that nice euphoric sound. If you whack in the 7th it just sounds that little bit too minor, and a bit baroque! I can't remember if thats harmonic or melodic tho... doesnt really matter.

As most people know C minor is the standard trance key. D minor is a bit more euphoric, F minor is a bit darker. These are just my views mind and are totally subjective, so i dont want anyone going "No its not". Just play thru the keys yourself and see how they make you feel.

Then just use lots of V's I's, III's, some VI's ect. Then throw in some inversions, put it on a big synth, kick on the beat and OHH and bass off the beat. Bam. Trance. It won't be any good, but you gotta start somewhere.


Hope thats a bit more help.

Really appreciate the replies guys. Made a lot of sense! Glad that people understand where Im coming from, and wanna help, instead of giving the obvious (and patrionising) advise that the minority (you know who u r) of TA's do.

Look out for Alpha Concept. The production skills are getting there, just need to channel my passion & ideas!

BRING IT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trying using the Aeolian Mode - most dance music I've analyzed seems to fall into this category best. Some good cadences in this mode are:

VI-VII-i
VI-v-i

York - Reachers Of Civilization (Rank 1 Remix) is in Aeolian mode and uses one of these types of cadences - and it sounds amazing!!


Aeolian Mode uses similar chord progressions/retrogressions as is done with classical harmonic chord changes, so the switch to this "modern mode" is almost null.

Push - Strange World is in Phrygian or Dorian Mode I believe...


The best way to get "trance" chords is to study several tunes you like and see where they they go and why. Most trance tunes are in Aeolian Mode, so try analyzing in that mode first. You might also want to try using classical chord progressions/retrogressions as well. Kid Vicious - Re-Form uses extensive classical harmonic chord changes and it's brilliant!!!! Also, Paul Oakenfold - Southern Sun uses Neapolitan 6ths, which makes for a NICE 1/2 stepped chord change. There really is no set "trance" chords. It's all about how you use what you know, be it classical training, modern training, or both. Needless to say, some things absolutely DON'T work well with trance at all!


Here are some chords you might want to experiment with in Aeolian Mode:
VI-iv-i Example: Technique - Sun Is Shining (Matt Darey Remix)
VI-VII-i
i-v-VI-iv
i-N6 (moves from the tonic to the neapolitan 2nd - a minor i to a Major II by 1/2 step) Example: Paul Oakenfold - Southern Sun

A really GREAT tune to study is Brother Browne ft Frankee - Under The Water (Starecase Mix). This tune has so much going on!

Some advice on composing: if you get stuck, drop it and come back later when you have some time to space yourself from the problem. Sometimes I come back to my work after a few days and toss out 1/2 the work I was doing because I have a better idea! The best practice for composing is "write, rewrite, & rewrite some more." Some of the greatest classical composers would come do rewrites on their work years after it was "finished." For example, Anton Bruckner was rewriting some of his symphonies DECADES after he "finished" them!!!

And remember...
it all comes back to the tonic!!!


Cheers!

JP8000Lover

Some interesting information from ..messytechie & JP8000Lover. Although I don't have the slighest idea what any of it means. I'm interested in finding out. Do you have any links that you can reccomend to learn these things? I don't know what minor keys mean, or major keys, or d-minor, or c-minor, sharpened 7ths? E-flat? all that Vii Vi stuff. Neapolitan 6ths? Are you guys just making this stuff up j/k.

Phrygian mode
Dorian Mode
Aeolian Mode

what are modes? Actually this is where it gets really bad... what are chords? lol.

Some interesting information from ..messytechie & JP8000Lover. Although I don't have the slightest idea what any of it means. I'm interested in finding out. Do you have any links that you can recommend to learn these things? I don't know what minor keys mean, or major keys, or d-minor, or c-minor, sharpened 7ths? E-flat? all that Vii Vi stuff. Neapolitan 6ths? Are you guys just making this stuff up j/k.

Phrygian mode
Dorian Mode
Aeolian Mode

what are modes? Actually this is where it gets really bad... what are chords? lol.


If you have a few minutes, you can learn answers to all your questions here:
http://www.musictheory.net/

That site also has a great chord calculator (too bad it doesn't have inversions). Go to the chord calculator and select: C, Major, and I. That will show you I chord of C Major. Now select N6. That's a Neapolitan 6th. Play that chord change on your keyboard, then listen to Paul Oakenfold - Southern Sun (Tiesto Remix). That type of chord change isn't typical in trance, but it was done beautifully by Oakie.


A good page for understanding the names of notes. Look in Scale Degrees:
http://www.mibac.com/Pages/Theory/Main_Theory.htm


Chord stuff:
A chord is a combination of at least three distinct notes.

Chord notation (all that viio, VI, V6/4, etc.) is how we represent chords.

The numbers correspond to the root of the chord i.e. if you are in the key of C, a I chord's root is C, a ii chord's root is D, etc.

Uppercase means the chord is a Major chord (a happy-sounding chord)

Lowercase means the chord is a minor chord (a sad-sounding chord)

Those are just the basics...




Here's a link to explain modes:
http://www.8notes.com/articles/modes/


One thing though. For all modes (in my example Aeolian Mode), when they say that the mode starts on those white keys, that is not the whole picture. Any mode can start on any key, just as long as it fits. Modes are made by a combination of whole steps and half steps. Half steps are made when you go from one key to the key's neighbor i.e. c->c#. Whole steps are made when you go to the neighbor's neighbor i.e. c->d. The Aeolian Mode consists of whwwhww where w=whole step and h=half step. Go to a keyboard and pick any key. Follow the pattern and you have the Aeolian Mode for that key.

And for those interested in every conceivable mode:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/doc/modename.html


Cheers!

JP8000Lover

I try to generally stick to certain scales/modes in a particular song, but i also stray quite a bit from the set "rules". I play guitar and when improvising a solo you try to stick to a certain scale, but change SOME of the notes. When the listener hears a note that doesn't fit the scale, and then hears another note that does fit the scale it gives the listener a kind of "relief", ie it sounds good. I hope that made sense.

quote:

As much as people might try to tell you otherwise, there are standards for every genre of music, that if you follow you will create a standard piece of music for that genre (look at DnB for example - yeah sounds great but its all exactly the same stuff, just produced differently)

wha? where did you hear this from? i dont think you have heard much dnb if you think it all sounds the same. its one of the most varied and freeform styles of modern music.

jp8000 lover. do NOT use chord calculators because you will come to rely on them for finding out chords. you can figure out how to make chords minor/major/suspended etc etc and there are a few tutorials on the net which will show you how to do it.

moded scales are variations on normal 7 note scales. ill cut to the chase because you should memorize these and improvise around them. you dont need to start them in C. i just do this so you can visualize the scale as an ascending (or descending) sequence of notes spanning an octave.

dorian goes C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb. VNV nation improvise around this scale on their track genesis.

phrygian goes C, C#, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb. i cant remember off the top of my head where this one gets used but i have heard it turn up ALOT in trance.

lydian goes C, D, E, F#, G, A, B. yep its practically the same as a regular 7 note scale rooted in C except for the sharpened F. tiesto uses this scale in urban train and in his remix of silence. mauro picotto uses this for the pads in lizard and iguana. that sharpened F/G if you hit it at the top of a 3 step movement from C gives you that classic melancholic lift that so many trance tunes have.

just bang this in the piano roll on your favourite strings patch and you will know exactly what i mean. have the first 2 intervals (intervals are chords consisting of only 2 notes) sustain for 1 bar and the last interval sustain for 2 bars (so you fill 4 bars and you can loop it around in your tune).

C, D, E on C4 and at the same time
E, F#, G on C6

you will have heard that movement in half the trance oriented tunes under the sun. sometimes its cleverly disguised with extra 6th, 7th or 11th notes (adding more notes to the chord to make it sound thicker and more expressive but it can muddy the purity of the sound which is why mauro picotto's simple pad riffs sounded so huuuge and epic)

the basic idea is to use chords ascending or descending part of the way along one of these scales (there are more but these are the most frequently used in euphoric type trance i feel). also experiment with the sharpened and flattened note. have a 3 step pattern going on C4 on a decent pad patch, descending. say, F, Eb, C#. go up two octaves and plink an ascending pattern down. say G, Ab, Bb. you have a melancholic pad that is based around a phrygian mode. it doesnt sound complete so flesh it out. try this. you are spanning 2 octaves so lets fill out that middle octave starting on C5. try F, G, Ab. sounds better.

just experiment like this. you can get tonnes of combinations plus you will see some patterns and progressions which you have heard literally thousands of artists using.

Thank you guys for that wealth of information. Really appreciate it!!

The links are great =) I now know what a chord is And the example songs were cool and really helpful. Thanks again!

Thanks all for your information.

Using the C D E E and E F# G G sequence,
i've made this little demo...

I use a Clavia Nord Lead 3, and the Bren-F bass drum, and percussion sounds.

This is my first little trance music...

http://www.eletronz.com/[_eletronz_..._first_beat.mp3

Thanks,

quote:

Originally posted by JP8000Lover The best way to get "trance" chords is to study several tunes you like and see where they they go and why.

I agree, completely. If you're keen on learning any style of music, one of the best things you can do is take a song you love, listen to it carefully and try to replicate it.

Now obviously I'm not saying you should copy other's music when making your own tunes; however training your ear to pick out all the layers, and working out that if a tune changes what that change means - (was it a whole chord change, did just some of the notes change etc.) - is an incredibly powerful way to learn about the music. Training your ear like this is essential.

Definitely, learn a bit of music theory to get a framework in which to think. Try to work out yourself what chords + notes + rhythms are used in a particular tune. Look at midi files of the tune if you get stuck. But don't give up until you can hear a trance tune and know the chords are what is changing, when, and why.

People talk a lot about the actual key a tune is in ( is it in A, C, E flat or whatever ), but music is all relative - once a song has established the key, then the rest of the song is all about how you change away from and back to that key. When training your ear, think about the intervals more than the actual notes; a song that starts in A minor and changes to F major is the same as a song going from E flat minor and changing to B major. You can see this if you have any midis in your sequencer and use the transpose key function.

I hope that helps, and all the best with your learning mate!!

Yes,

All you have to do is to choose your key, and change the chords based on the scale sequence...

I know music theory, but until now i have just make pop/rock music, but i've listened to eletronic music all my life...

Eletronic music has diferent chords sequence, but now i'm looking to get "the way".

You can check my pop/rock band at: http://www.majortom.cjb.net

Thanks,

quote:

Originally posted by pho mo People talk a lot about the actual key a tune is in ( is it in A, C, E flat or whatever ), but music is all relative - once a song has established the key, then the rest of the song is all about how you change away from and back to that key. When training your ear, think about the intervals more than the actual notes; a song that starts in A minor and changes to F major is the same as a song going from E flat minor and changing to B major. You can see this if you have any midis in your sequencer and use the transpose key function.

That isn't quite true. In fact, the human ear hears different frequencies in a different way. For example, 440Hz is an A, 220Hz is the A an octave below that and 110Hz even one octave lower. Now think about how you perceive a bass that centers around 110Hz, versus one at, say, 155Hz (which is approximately an E above that 110Hz A). The sound is quite different, even when using the same synth patch! To get the most out of your sounds, you have to take in account at what frequency you play them. And that is the reason why I hardly use C minor any more, for example - I've noticed that my favourite basses sound much better at D# or F than at C, and so I choose one of the cooler notes for the most important parts.

The relationships of the frequencies might not change if you change the keys, but since the absolute frequencies do change, it is NOT irrelevant what key you play your song in.

Really good point mate, I absolutely agree Emotions are certainly affected differently by what key a song is in. Once you've got basic music theory down, this is a very important point to think about.

hey guys,how i can establish a key in fruity? is it about setting all my samples to for example A (for root note)?

to answer your question i would stick the major and minor chords

for example ceg egb etc then add your top notes your variations your chord progression etc ,what works for me is i change and alter the notes so you have movement ,and flow but again this could be a melody that sounds good to you for the top.

regardless of what key you're in, the chord progression should be VI VII I, or some variant
start listening for it, it pops up a lot more than you probably realize, its an incredibly powerful progression

quote:

Originally posted by mezzir regardless of what key you're in, the chord progression should be VI VII I, or some variant start listening for it, it pops up a lot more than you probably realize, its an incredibly powerful progression

this is the worst advice in this thread.

my thoughts

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