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Is it cheating to write down notes of song matching tempos?

Ok, I have been a long time music enthusiast, but never really DJ'd, so I went and picked up a set of Denon decks (with out bmp counters) and Yorkville 550n(550watt monitor). I have been starting to mix a bit, but I wanted to know if its common practive to jot down the tempo adjustments required to mix certain tracks together Thanks

Not at all. People write it down on vinyls and even sort there vinyls by bpm while spinning a set so they know not to pick a 139 bpm tune to mix into a 130. As long as you dont have a bpm couner..thats for kids. :D

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Originally posted by rooibos Not at all. People write it down on vinyls and even sort there vinyls by bpm while spinning a set so they know not to pick a 139 bpm tune to mix into a 130. As long as you dont have a bpm couner..thats for kids.

Awesome I just wanted to make sure that one day I am spinning infront of someone and they are like "what the hell is this? You are cheating!" lol

Re: Is it cheating to write down notes of song matching tempos?

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Originally posted by Scot @ SJIRadio Ok, I have been a long time music enthusiast, but never really DJ'd, so I went and picked up a set of Denon decks (with out bmp counters) and Yorkville 550n(550watt monitor). I have been starting to mix a bit, but I wanted to know if its common practive to jot down the tempo adjustments required to mix certain tracks together Thanks

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but it sounds like your saying, you jot down the BPM at 0% and so you know how much you have to change a pitch to get it to say 142bpm, so that when your mixing another track, you know at what percent to change it to make it the same bpm, if so, you can do this, but if you walk into a club and the decks ain't configured properly, then this will not work how you'd like it to, as some Techs are faster at +6% than another Tech at +6%, mine are like this, and you find its like this in many clubs, so even if you memorised all the picth adjustments to get them to the same bpm, this would then be useless, but if you mean just gotting down the BPM of the track at 0% just so you don't have to change the pitch to much and make it sound weird, then this is ok, and my whole post is now useless.

whatever works

Re: Is it cheating to write down notes of song matching tempos?

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Originally posted by Scot @ SJIRadio Ok, I have been a long time music enthusiast, but never really DJ'd, so I went and picked up a set of Denon decks (with out bmp counters) and Yorkville 550n(550watt monitor). I have been starting to mix a bit, but I wanted to know if its common practive to jot down the tempo adjustments required to mix certain tracks together Thanks

Don't listen to these clowns. You need to learn how to beat match and hear keys in records. More importantly you need to know your records and know where and when to drop a track. It takes awhile to learn how to mix. If you�re serious about DJ'ing it will take you 4- 6 months to learn. If your half-assed about DJ'ing it will take you 1 -1 1/2 yrs. Seldom will anyone ever masters the field but they will improve their skill the more they practice. Akin to making art, mixing is a result of hard work and patience. It will take time but as long as your are learning to mix with music you like and believe in it will be a fun experience. There is no fuckin way your going to be able to pull off a 2 hr. gig in a dark club or house party other than through the time-tested dj'ing approach.


Practice Practice Practice

Re: Re: Is it cheating to write down notes of song matching tempos?

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Originally posted by Dave Piazza Don't listen to these clowns. You need to learn how to beat match and hear keys in records.

Exactly who here said for him to basically not bother learning to DJ by ear?, everybody know you have to do it that way otherwise you'll never make a good set, but if hes just righting down the BPM on his records, so what, I don't do it but if he does, who cares, I've heard about big DJs doing this aswell, just incase they wanna drop a track, but not waste time finding out that they can't get it fast enough, although they should know that pretty much anyway.

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Originally posted by DannyO just incase they wanna drop a track, but not waste time finding out that they can't get it fast enough, although they should know that pretty much anyway.

I agree. I organize my record box in certain categories. It helps me pick records faster. I don't have my records keyed but I know my records well (this is the principle I was hoping to tell Scot @ SJIRadio ). If you know your records well you instinctively know how it sounds and where to drop it. You not going to fool anyone trying to hack it. For example, I make sure I know my records before I play them out. Even if it�s a super new promo I will wait until I feel comfortable using it. TBH sometimes you can feel a record and you can just drop it but more often than not I have to listen to the track for a few days until its placed in my box.


I believe the question Scot @ SJIRadio asked was whether it was normal practice to calculate the bpm to mix a record. My answer was NO !

Anyone who thinks you can DJ by using software or some bullshit math formal is either 1) a dumbass and/or 2 ) someone that has no idea how to DJ. I believe the latter is more appropriate for those who answered his question with a yes.

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Originally posted by Dave Piazza Anyone who thinks you can DJ by using software or some bullshit math formal is either 1) a dumbass and/or 2 ) someone that has no idea how to DJ. I believe the latter is more appropriate for those who answered his question with a yes.

More and more top DJ's are using software now along with their decks to mix however.

at the end of the day who gives a shit?? if you want to know how fast one of your records is and writing it down will help you remember then fine, i would have thought everyone does something like that. if some punk thinks you are cheating then pick up the turntable and smack him with it.

I dunno. Iv just never seen the need.

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Originally posted by Philby if some punk thinks you are cheating then pick up the turntable and smack him with it.

And then learn to DJ ONLY using software cause that's all you'll have that's still working.

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Originally posted by miamitranceman More and more top DJ's are using software now along with their decks to mix however.

The only software I can think you are referring to is Final Scratch.


But this software is meant to bridge the gap between conventional Dj'ing and the digital Dj. It key feature was the ability to mix two digital tracks like you you would on vinyl ( i.e. the time coded vinyl discs found w/ final scratch).If Dj's , like Paul Van Dyk, didn't enjoy the feel of mixing with vinyl and perfer to let machines to the mixing for them than there would be no need to carry around Final Scratch and he would use something like Tracktor( another shit program).


Also Dj's like Sasha are incorperating software into their mixing to do more creative mixes. But as we all know Sasha can mix like no other. I doubt he would ever let software control the entire mix.



BTW

Has it ever crossed your mind that these big Dj's get paid millions of dollars to endorse and promote specific software.

Just an idea

I personally don't see the benfit of mixing software.


I perfer the warm sound produced by vinyl vs. wav/aiff or Mp3

I would say it wouldn't be cheating, based on what DannyO pointed out with different TTs having different calibrations, which would mean you would still have to beatmatch anyway, but Dave's idea is probably a really good route for you to take and it would accomplish what I think you're trying to do on an even bigger level. You would have a number of options to go to at the spur of the moment and you could drop something different during your set if you feel something might workbetter than what you initially planned.

If you watch most DJs, particularly those who are on tour, you'll notice that they do little more than make minor adjustments when switching tracks, so either the general idea is in their head from playing those songs out so much or they have some technique, so you should prepare somehow, but noting speeds is not a good idea, because you will greatly limit yourself and force you to use certain tracks.

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Originally posted by Dave Piazza If you know your records well you instinctively know how it sounds and where to drop it.

Yup, thats how I do it, I don't key or BPM mark them, you just listen to your records, mess with them at home and learn how it sounds and flows and so you will know when the time comes, where this record can be dropped.

I'm still not sure what the thread starter was actually asking, which is either 1)is it ok just to mark what the BPM is of the track (which isn't that bad) or 2)mark them with the BPM and then note down at what percent it should be to run at a certain speed, then you do it with all your tracks and find out at what percent they all have to be changed to run a certain speed, this however is very wrong, you can do it if they want, but you will be screwed the day you play on another setup, but I think this way would be harder than training your ears, and you still wouldn't be very accurate with this method, so I don't think anyone has anything to worry about.

Oh yea, down with software...unless its Ableton Live and your adding crazy shit into your set.

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Originally posted by DannyO 2)mark them with the BPM and then note down at what percent it should be to run at a certain speed, then you do it with all your tracks and find out at what percent they all have to be changed to run a certain speed

this is exactly what I thought he was asking.

when I saw others say it was 'ok' to do this I felt the need to post.

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Originally posted by Dave Piazza The only software I can think you are referring to is Final Scratch. But this software is meant to bridge the gap between conventional Dj'ing and the digital Dj. It key feature was the ability to mix two digital tracks like you you would on vinyl ( i.e. the time coded vinyl discs found w/ final scratch).If Dj's , like Paul Van Dyk, didn't enjoy the feel of mixing with vinyl and perfer to let machines to the mixing for them than there would be no need to carry around Final Scratch and he would use something like Tracktor( another shit program). Also Dj's like Sasha are incorperating software into their mixing to do more creative mixes. But as we all know Sasha can mix like no other. I doubt he would ever let software control the entire mix. BTW Has it ever crossed your mind that these big Dj's get paid millions of dollars to endorse and promote specific software. Just an idea

It all comes down to personal preference, but I use Serato Scratch, and think that it is a great tool. You can get 320KBs MP3 from places like Beatport for around 2-3 Dollars a track. That's a great deal. And with more and more labels starting to support digital downloads like this, Serato Scratch and Final Scratch both will start to get more support. Certain DJ's are spinning almost exclusively off of CDs so why not off programs like Serato Scratch? I would also find you hard pressed to tell the difference betwen a 320KB/s MP3 and a Vinyl in a club setting. Very hard difference to hear.

As to the original question. Organize your box however you want, learn to mix however you want, and be as creative as you like. In the end, it isn't how you organize your records, it's what you do with them.

its ok to write down the bpms. i thought about that once after i got my beatmatching down. i say do it it'll give you more time to think of other things later on. the concept already exist look at turntablism. they mark all the records in the cue spots they need and bpms only because they don't have time. if you're going to write down notes like that make sure you have a crazy routine and not to be lazy about it.

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Originally posted by sym I would also find you hard pressed to tell the difference betwen a 320KB/s MP3 and a Vinyl in a club setting. Very hard difference to hear.

Give me two small samples ( 1 min) of the same track. One in 320KB/s MP3 form and the other in Vinyl form and I promise you I can tell the difference. I don�t the difference can be detected by your average clubber but I imagine that the trained ears of a DJ can.

What is the difference?

The low and mid range frequencies on vinyl have that distinct warm and vibrant sound. Akin to the difference in sound produced from hardware analogue synth vs. software analogue synth.

Trust me when I first started I was mixing from cd's too. It was a cheap way for me to start off. I soon discovered a credit card and found vinyl records

Contrary to what you might believe I found more tunes and newer tunes on vinyl than I did on CD. Vinyl market has always been that obscure medium that separates the DJ from the listener.


Yes, there has been a move towards selling MP3�s online which is good for the general public but I think DJ�s ( expect those who get paid to promote DJ software) will continue to use vinyl indefinitely. Will they use Cd�s? Of course, but as a supplement rather than a primary source for their record box (which is currently the trend).

I am fond of how people react when they spot you carry a record box or playing music off a vinyl record. I love the contradictions that exist when you use vinyl (a very old medium) to play dance music (innovative and technology driven music).

Does spinning Cd�s and Mp3�s make you a shit DJ ? No !

The #1 reason why some dj�s are shit, imo, is not the medium they use but rather the music they play. If you can�t pick records to make people dance than it doesn�t matter what the fuck you use.


That said I still use my denon cd decks to spin material I can�t find on vinyl. But nothing can ever replace the feel of pulling a record out of its sleeve and placing it on the platter nor could one ever replicate the true sound of vinyl.

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Originally posted by Dave Piazza The only software I can think you are referring to is Final Scratch. But this software is meant to bridge the gap between conventional Dj'ing and the digital Dj. It key feature was the ability to mix two digital tracks like you you would on vinyl ( i.e. the time coded vinyl discs found w/ final scratch).If Dj's , like Paul Van Dyk, didn't enjoy the feel of mixing with vinyl and perfer to let machines to the mixing for them than there would be no need to carry around Final Scratch and he would use something like Tracktor( another shit program). Also Dj's like Sasha are incorperating software into their mixing to do more creative mixes. But as we all know Sasha can mix like no other. I doubt he would ever let software control the entire mix. BTW Has it ever crossed your mind that these big Dj's get paid millions of dollars to endorse and promote specific software. Just an idea

note: Final Scratch is juat an interface to Traktor (what you called shit program). Basically a special version of traktor is being driven by the DJ's actions on the decks. Not saying that traktor does the job but you can't call a shit program something that is getting professional use.

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Originally posted by Raptor its ok to write down the bpms. i thought about that once after i got my beatmatching down. i say do it it'll give you more time to think of other things later on. the concept already exist look at turntablism. they mark all the records in the cue spots they need and bpms only because they don't have time. if you're going to write down notes like that make sure you have a crazy routine and not to be lazy about it.

a turntablist DJ is different than a dance music DJ.

turntablism is a show of skill and talent one can do with a vinyl record. it requires differnet prepartion and skill. one needs to do very quick cuts,samples,scratching, etc. Labeling records is required in such a act.

whilst a dance music dj is a show of skill and talent one can showcase with dance music. it requires different preparation and skill. one needs to pick good music, mix the records well, create a story and feel the crowd, etc.


as a dance music dj you need to

1) know your records mentally ( bpms, breakdowns, keys, etc)

-if you know your records well you can be fast at picking what track to play next. It becomes second nature. you should be able to find any record in your box within 30 secs.

2) know how to mix records properly ( no train wrecks, key clashes ,ect.)

-It shouldn;t take someone more than 5 secs. to test by trial and error if the incoming record clashes in key.

-It shouldn't take more than 20 secs. to beat match any record.



A good Dj can pick any record out of his box and mix it under 1 min.


given that a typical trance or prog song gives you atleast 5-6 min. to waste perparing for the next track this is ample time for the good dj go through the motions.


Unlike what some people beleive, saving 10-15 secs. by using software to search for your records via final scratch is by no means a benifit given that the window a DJ has to mix a song is 5 -6 min in length on average.

Unless you want to do really quick mixes( i.e. less than 3 min) and play like 3 or 4 records at a time I see no need in software or writing down the bpms. I would find it odd to find a DJ who plays trance or prog. that would enguage in such a mixing style.

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Originally posted by Dave Piazza Give me two small samples ( 1 min) of the same track. One in 320KB/s MP3 form and the other in Vinyl form and I promise you I can tell the difference. I don�t the difference can be detected by your average clubber but I imagine that the trained ears of a DJ can. What is the difference? The low and mid range frequencies on vinyl have that distinct warm and vibrant sound. Akin to the difference in sound produced from hardware analogue synth vs. software analogue synth. Trust me when I first started I was mixing from cd's too. It was a cheap way for me to start off. I soon discovered a credit card and found vinyl records Contrary to what you might believe I found more tunes and newer tunes on vinyl than I did on CD. Vinyl market has always been that obscure medium that separates the DJ from the listener. Yes, there has been a move towards selling MP3�s online which is good for the general public but I think DJ�s ( expect those who get paid to promote DJ software) will continue to use vinyl indefinitely. Will they use Cd�s? Of course, but as a supplement rather than a primary source for their record box (which is currently the trend). I am fond of how people react when they spot you carry a record box or playing music off a vinyl record. I love the contradictions that exist when you use vinyl (a very old medium) to play dance music (innovative and technology driven music). Does spinning Cd�s and Mp3�s make you a shit DJ ? No ! The #1 reason why some dj�s are shit, imo, is not the medium they use but rather the music they play. If you can�t pick records to make people dance than it doesn�t matter what the fuck you use. That said I still use my denon cd decks to spin material I can�t find on vinyl. But nothing can ever replace the feel of pulling a record out of its sleeve and placing it on the platter nor could one ever replicate the true sound of vinyl.

I agree with you on many points, I totally agree there is no feeling like taking that banging tune from your record box and putting it on the platter, knowing the crowd's gunna go nuts. I also agree medium is unimportant, but the quality of a DJ's mixing and track selection.

Also, I agree vinyl is a good medium for DJs. I mean, you go into a record store and can sort through hundreds upon hundreds of tracks, some of which are so obscure that few have heard of them before, which is a good way to find great tracks that aren't very popular to make your set unique.

Here is where I disagree with you:

On studio headphones or monitors, your probably right a trained ear could tell the difference. But on a loud club system where the bass is overpowering everything? I doubt the producer himself could tell the difference tbh. At 320Kb/s not many freqs. are altered at all, and the sound is about as close to original as possible, while still compressing file size.

Also, I think that the DJing culture is starting to move away from vinyl. If you look at clubs not very long ago, you would have rarely seen a pair of CD Decks. Now, nearly every major club sports a pair of CDJ-1000s or similiar. This is due to some major advancements in CD Decks. For instance, CDJ1000s, have I believe .02% pitch adjustment, which is pretty accurate. The CDJs of the past weren't nearly as acurate and therefore, DJs really didn't want to use them.

Since CDJs have become more reliable, we see more and more DJs playing CDs, because it is convenient. They don't have to carry around as many heavy records, they can burn a track 10 minutes before there gig and play it. But I am not trying to argue that CD > Vinyl, I am trying to emphasize the fact that over just a few years, DJing has changed alot, simply by the advancement of CDJ technology.

Now take a look at systems like Final Scratch and SSL. They are fairly new, and as such are expected to not be totally flawless and be able to take over vinyl. However, when you see some DJs playing an entire night with just their laptops, you've got to wonder, is this the future?

Of course, they are getting paid to promote the products. But, the fact that they can carry around 1000s of tunes on a laptop for a fraction of the weight of carrying around a record case with 60 records, says alot. A digital standard is not too far off IMO. The pros far outweigh the cons.

Record labels can offer digital downloads for a fraction of the cost of having to press 1000s of records. DJs save money on buying the tracking digitally. The record company(hopefully) sells more copies of the track digitally, caus' this bring the track to a wider audience than just DJs. You don't have to worry about scratching/breaking/wearing out an mp3.

John '00' Fleming has written alot about what he thinks of the future technology of DJing and you might want to check out his site, it's a good read.

But imagine the day, when DJ's could just bring their IPod's, plug it in to the clubs laptop and play. How far off can this really be?

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Originally posted by tnt_ Not saying that traktor does the job but you can't call a shit program something that is getting professional use.

This is how I see it. There are two groups of DJ's using FS.

1) Big Dj's getting paid to promote FS.

2) DJ's who can't afford or don't want to buy vinyls and would rather download shit for free or on the cheap and pretend they are DJ'ing using this toy.


I do not support a device which encourges illegal file sharing and rip's off the producers and labels.

I am happy when I buy my high priced vinyl because I feel that I am rewarding the artist and the label for creating such excellent work. I also find it a fair trade that I purchase a record for $15 but in return I get paid $600 for a gig.

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Originally posted by Dave Piazza This is how I see it. There are two groups of DJ's using FS. 1) Big Dj's getting paid to promote FS. 2) DJ's who can't afford or don't want to buy vinyls and would rather download shit for free or on the cheap and pretend they are DJ'ing using this toy. I do not support a device which encourges illegal file sharing and rip's off the producers and labels. I am happy when I buy my high priced vinyl because I feel that I am rewarding the artist and the label for creating such excellent work. I also find it a fair trade that I purchase a record for $15 but in return I get paid $600 for a gig.

I do agree with you, but what about DJ's who simply like being able to easily carry around every record they own on a laptop, thus being able to cater to any crowd, play any style? I think it is a bad generalization to assume that everyone who uses FS or SSL is either getting paid to use it, or STRICTLY using it with pirated MP3s.

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