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Age restrictions

in the US you have to be 21 to drink alchol (and it is actually enforced unlike most eurpean countries where its not), but 18 to kill people in Iraq. In canada you responsible enought to vote at 18, but must be 19 to buy a lighter....

sweden is quite stric on this too (18 for most things), but most other european countries (except norway and perhaps some more..) have much less strict laws, for example in denmark you can be 15 and buy alcohol legally (and much lower illegally ).

obviously people in those countries with lower age limits drink more, but they drink "better" imo, they kinda know how to handle it, while in for example canada they suck at handeling alcohol.

so whats your thoughts on age limits? good/bad? lower/higher?

Its a stupid law.

Depends on the culture. In Europe where drinking is part of "normal" culture, not something you do to get trashed (or at least as much as it is in the US), there's no problem with not having an enforced drinking age. At the extreme, the Netherlands allows you to do pretty much anything you want, but culturally and socially its citizens are equpped to handle that sort of freedom and the country doesn't revert to chaos because of it. In the US, where getting drunk/high is an almost universal goal especially with younger people, not having an age limit on alcohol would have some serious consequences. I love the US, don't get me wrong, but we're just not the type of culture that could handle no age restrictions, at least not at this point. I'd like to say that will change, but I don't see that happening soon.

Yeah, but in Germany you have to be 18 to get a driver's license, whereas in the States you only need to be 16 (in most states at least). You lose some, you win some imo.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono Depends on the culture. In Europe where drinking is part of "normal" culture, not something you do to get trashed (or at least as much as it is in the US), there's no problem with not having an enforced drinking age. At the extreme, the Netherlands allows you to do pretty much anything you want, but culturally and socially its citizens are equpped to handle that sort of freedom and the country doesn't revert to chaos because of it. In the US, where getting drunk/high is an almost universal goal especially with younger people, not having an age limit on alcohol would have some serious consequences. I love the US, don't get me wrong, but we're just not the type of culture that could handle no age restrictions, at least not at this point. I'd like to say that will change, but I don't see that happening soon.

yeah i agree with that, definitely a big different in the drinking culture... but where does it come from? i mean, perhaps it is because of all the restrictions that young people feel that when they have done all the efforts to get some alcohol and have the possiblity to use it, they must get trashed big time.

So my theory is that these kinds of laws actually worsen the drinking culture...

Perhaps a 16 or 15 limit in bars/resturants/home and a 20 limit to actually buy things in stores and drink yourself would make sense?

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Originally posted by St_Andrew yeah i agree with that, definitely a big different in the drinking culture... but where does it come from? i mean, perhaps it is because of all the restrictions that young people feel that when they have done all the efforts to get some alcohol and have the possiblity to use it, they must get trashed big time.

I think it is some how intertwined (or explained best) by observing in the college/university experience of Americans vs the college/university expereince of Europeans.

Lets just say, I can't imagine Animal House happening with students of the �cole Polytechnique in Paris.

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So my theory is that these kinds of laws actually worsen the drinking culture...

Try extending this to all laws than in general. Creating a law puts the responsibility on the goverment and the overall 'society' instead of from the individual and their cliches (smaller society).

I read a good article for instance in last months (or was it this months?) Wired Magazine about a road architecht from the Netherlands. What he found out is that removing all the 'safeties' of a road, such as a curb to differentiate between street and sidewalk, the median seperating line (the line between the lanes of traffic), removing cross-walks for pedetrains, and removing wanring signs, that drivers actually became much more responsible, more aware, and better drivers in general in the certain areas of road which he designed (I can source you specifcally if you want.. just say so).

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Perhaps a 16 or 15 limit in bars/resturants/home and a 20 limit to actually buy things in stores and drink yourself would make sense?

Good idea, if one were to approach it with logic that is.

Another one is simply to lower the drinking age and raise the driving age like in most Europe. That way teens know their limit before they get the keys to the car, not after.

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Originally posted by Yoepus I read a good article for instance in last months (or was it this months?) ... (I can source you specifcally if you want.. just say so).

Apparently it was this month's.

Read if for yourselves, good read. Interesting new perspective and one that challenges the status quo:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/traffic.html

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Originally posted by Yoepus I think it is some how intertwined (or explained best) by observing in the college/university experience of Americans vs the college/university expereince of Europeans. Lets just say, I can't imagine Animal House happening with students of the �cole Polytechnique in Paris.

yeah, american collage/uni drinking cutlure is crazy!!! haha

but i think this also pretty much agrees with my theory, this is the time when most n american kids get total freedom from their parents, and when they do, they do all the bad stuff that they werent alloud to before.

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Try extending this to all laws than in general. Creating a law puts the responsibility on the goverment and the overall 'society' instead of from the individual and their cliches (smaller society). I read a good article for instance in last months (or was it this months?) Wired Magazine about a road architecht from the Netherlands. What he found out is that removing all the 'safeties' of a road, such as a curb to differentiate between street and sidewalk, the median seperating line (the line between the lanes of traffic), removing cross-walks for pedetrains, and removing wanring signs, that drivers actually became much more responsible, more aware, and better drivers in general in the certain areas of road which he designed (I can source you specifcally if you want.. just say so).

yeah i think this is very true. the north american culture (at least the Ontario cutlure) doesn promote personal responsibility at all. there is laws and restrictions for everything, things that i have never seen a problem with in sweden.

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Good idea, if one were to approach it with logic that is. Another one is simply to lower the drinking age and raise the driving age like in most Europe. That way teens know their limit before they get the keys to the car, not after.

true, north americans are soooo much more dependent on their cars tho (due to culutre / lack of public transit).

its scary how much i agreed with you in this post really

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Originally posted by St_Andrew yeah, american collage/uni drinking cutlure is crazy!!! haha but i think this also pretty much agrees with my theory, this is the time when most n american kids get total freedom from their parents, and when they do, they do all the bad stuff that they werent alloud to before.

Well I don't think it agrees necessarily with your theory as the kids still break the law in college (drinking in 18 is still illegal, just as it was in high school at 16...). The laws are still there, simply their only social enforcer, which I'm assuming is for American children their parents, is absent so their is no consequences.

The whole parenting relationship in the USA is a bit awkward... but I don't want to get into that as I wouldn't know where to start an argument....

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yeah i think this is very true. the north american culture (at least the Ontario cutlure) doesn promote personal responsibility at all. there is laws and restrictions for everything, things that i have never seen a problem with in sweden.

Yea, this is why I like Texas a lot, they basically give you a lot more freedom than other states (for instance if you are under 21 you can still drink in bars and restaurants if your parents are around), they do less regulating. Don't be mistaken they are still America - they have a lot of dumb rules (ever heard of a "dry county?"), but for the most part I find their "government get out of my life" attitude very inspiring in a sense.

The more rural you get in Texas though it seems the less their are laws or the laws are enforced (you can go speeding to blazes in rural Texas and slower cars will even pull off to the side to let you pass as you approach them, cops don't care much since everyone does it).

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true, north americans are soooo much more dependent on their cars tho (due to culutre / lack of public transit).

See, I don't think that culture is the cause of this, I beleive culture is a result of it. The cause, as I mentioned in another thread is simply that Europe is "old" and America is "new". Therefore USA cities are wide, spread-out, and Europeans cramped, medival narrow-streets, high-desnity etc. You will find that in the "older" American cities, or the ones that are dense (i.e. New York) there is good public transport.

The only way public transport can work is in dense areas. But because in America land and houses are cheap, everybody wants their one acre, their nice big house, instead of some cramped apartment on the 3rd floor, and simply since everything is wide and spread out, it makes sense to use mass-individual transportation, i.e. cars. If you use a car in America you are rewarded (no waits, easy access, fast, lots off parking).

In Europe the city-planning is simply different, if you use a car you are punished (expensive, not enough roads, takes hours to find a parking spot, costs a ton of money to park, etc...). From the enviroment that these societies come out of their culture than reflects the optimal result. In the USA car = good (because this is the reality of the environment), in Europe public transport / walking = good (again because of the reality of their environment).

But returning from the tanget and combining what you said about how North American culture doesn't have a huge notion of personal responsibility, it would be curious to see if the Dutch road engineer's ideas about traffic would apply in the USA culture. Because I am suspicious such things might only work in Europe.

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its scary how much i agreed with you in this post really

Stop flirting with me, I've tried to make it clear to you on several occasions now, I'm not a goat, so drop it.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew its scary how much i agreed with you in this post really

The horror continues - I find myself agreeing with him in this thread as well. I did manage to find one point of disagreement though:

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Originally posted by Yoepus The only way public transport can work is in dense areas.

In Europe public transport works excellent in the country side too. No matter where you want to go and where you come from, you can find buses that take you there. In Europe large parts of the old population are quite active and therefore use and need buses. Maybe that's a reason why there's a difference.
I think that you are nearer the truth when you state that in the US you are rewarded for having a car, whereas in Europe you are punished. But density is not a prerequisite for public transport to be a good idea.

On the main topic: Why drinking under the age of 21 is not allowed in the US - but driving is. Couldn't the reason by religious, as drinking is seen as a sin (also among Europeans) whereas driving (even if it imposes dangers on others) is not?

I think the reason drinking and driving ages are different is because they themselves are vastly different. One gives you access to transportation, which at 16 is important because many are getting jobs for the first times, or find themselves in situations where transportation is important. However, having access to drinking really doesn't provide the person with any real "life gain." Being able to drink isn't going to get you to a job or school or allow you to be more productive. Many people would argue the contrary. Much like tobacco (which is 18 for some reason), alcohol is a "luxury" item.

I'm really not sure what to do in order to change the American culture to one in which alcohol is not abused by the young. It seems so ingrained in our culture to get trashed and party, that I'm not sure what would change it. I do agree that parents have a big role in this, as many parents give horrible examples in the responsible use of alcohol with their actions and stories from "when they were young." I honestly think this country would do much better with leaglizing pot then lowering the drinking age because of the mystique and fear that surrounds pot but is absent when talking about alcohol. Even tobacco is more respected for what can happen when abused and its responsible use than alcohol is in this country.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Lets just say, I can't imagine Animal House happening with students of the �cole Polytechnique in Paris.

Actually exactly when you were writing that(4.30am here, 9am lectures today too ) I just got back from an ace night out (for the pic of STFU folks I could post emm if you like lol) with some french guys and girls (�cole students too) and they can hold their own in the drinking stakes(comming from a scotsman btw!)

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Originally posted by trancaholic The horror continues - I find myself agreeing with him in this thread as well. I did manage to find one point of disagreement though:

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In Europe public transport works excellent in the country side too. No matter where you want to go and where you come from, you can find buses that take you there. In Europe large parts of the old population are quite active and therefore use and need buses. Maybe that's a reason why there's a difference.

In the USA rural "villages" are now more and more simply gathering points of commerce where the farmers actually live miles away on their big ranches, when they need someting they drive in town. In Europe the rural/farmers live in the village, and go to work on the ranch or elsewhere (I'm obviously vastly generalizing, but my point here is that even European rural villages are more dense than their American counterparts).

The idea behind this was again looking at how USA cities are constructed. I have no doubt that European public transport works in the country-side too, I've road it and I agree. But even the country-side is dense. Let me explain:

If you've ever seen Suburbia USA you realize you have to have a car to get around. I can concieve of no economically viable public transport to work in Suberbia. There are simply too much houses (each on a very nice size of land) with too much distance between them, and not enough people who would ride a bus (old. Recall the young have their own 'public transport' system to take them to school and back).

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But density is not a prerequisite for public transport to be a good idea.

I never said anything about good idea, I simply said it was a prerequisite for public transport to be accepted and used.

If I have big streets, vast distances to travel, shady alternatives, plenitful parking, and comfortable roads, I'm going to use my car, and look down at anyone who is stupid/poor enough to do otherwise.

Where as if you have narrow streets that are stressful to drive, and colged with traffic so no one can move for an hour, no where to park (or it cost an arm and a leg to park) and you have a quick, cheap, and easy alternative, called public transport. Then I'm going to use public transport and look down at anyone who is stupid/selfish enough to do otherwise.

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On the main topic: Why drinking under the age of 21 is not allowed in the US - but driving is. Couldn't the reason by religious

Not that I know of. The reason is historical. It was primarly formed because of the farms again. Where they needed son to go drive and pick up something in town, etc, to help out around the farm and biz.

You can even get exemptions to drive at 14 years of age if your family runs a business/farm and claim they need you to be able to drive to help with the business/farm. ... at least in Texas anyway.

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Originally posted by Dervish Actually exactly when you were writing that(4.30am here, 9am lectures today too ) I just got back from an ace night out (for the pic of STFU folks I could post emm if you like lol) with some french guys and girls (�cole students too) and they can hold their own in the drinking stakes(comming from a scotsman btw!)

Shut-up you don't know anything! Your drunk!



No but seriously what a small world that just the French students I make fun of you have to go party with and prove me wrong....


Anyhoo my point was: You don't see any (I'll be cautious and say many now) keg parties in Europe.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono I'm really not sure what to do in order to change the American culture to one in which alcohol is not abused by the young. It seems so ingrained in our culture to get trashed and party, that I'm not sure what would change it. I do agree that parents have a big role in this, as many parents give horrible examples in the responsible use of alcohol with their actions and stories from "when they were young." I honestly think this country would do much better with leaglizing pot then lowering the drinking age because of the mystique and fear that surrounds pot but is absent when talking about alcohol. Even tobacco is more respected for what can happen when abused and its responsible use than alcohol is in this country.

I don't think that american culture is so much different on these matters than european one. Perhaps the only difference is that people start consuming alcohol at later ages which makes them less capable of controlling the consumption than people of equal age in Europe. Here it's totally normal for 16 year old kids to get wasted with alcohol, but you kinda grow out of it when you're 20. In america you start with 20, age where you already have some responsibility to the society and where you should be kinda finishing with that stuff. So in Europe, the general view of getting wasted is something that kids do, while adults usually drink something like a glass or two of wine. In america, on the other hand, getting wasted is a sort of an adult thing to do. It's like those guys who get married at 18 and then start screwing around at 50. When you're restricted early in life, you make up for it later on.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Shut-up you don't know anything! Your drunk! No but seriously what a small world that just the French students I make fun of you have to go party with and prove me wrong.... Anyhoo my point was: You don't see any (I'll be cautious and say many now) keg parties in Europe.

Remeber the Uk is in europe and we are probebly one of the worst nations for getting wreaked. Under age (-18) drinking starts early here say 12, one of mates had to have his guts pumped from drinking too much whisky at 13 or 14.

Anyway the proof (though actually we don't look to drunk in these, wish I could link the movie I took on the bus on the way home you'd see then hehehe.)


Thats a french guy and a spanish guy sandwiching a scottish(i think) girl. And the french guy has another french guy behind him..... ....

i think that porn age limit is bad thing

The age here in Chicago is 21 to drink & 16 to drive. I think thats fine. I used to want the drinking age lowered to 18 but that was before I was 21 haha. My view then was that if your old enough to die for your country you should be old enough to drink. Well as ive aged ive realized i havent met too many people under 21 that were responsible enough to drink. I know I wasnt.

Re: Age restrictions

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Originally posted by St_Andrew in the US you have to be 21 to drink alchol (and it is actually enforced unlike most eurpean countries where its not), but 18 to kill people in Iraq. In canada you responsible enought to vote at 18, but must be 19 to buy a lighter....

Actually smoking laws are different province to province. I think they are the same as liquor laws and in most provinces the age limit is 18 years old. The reason that I personally think this was done was because Ontario used to have an extra year of high school called OAC, which was basically grade 13. So by the time most students got into first year of university they were 19 years old and I think the law came from that. In all the other provinces, and Ontario now too, there are 12 grades, so most people get into university at age 18.

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obviously people in those countries with lower age limits drink more, but they drink "better" imo, they kinda know how to handle it, while in for example canada they suck at handeling alcohol. so whats your thoughts on age limits? good/bad? lower/higher?

Hey! what do you mean we can't handle our alcohol... we handle it just fine... and then throw it up a few hours later!

I'd like to see the drinking age lowered to 16 and let bars/restaurants serve till 3am... that extra hour really does help . Just go out and party in Montreal and you'll see!

Re: Re: Age restrictions

Nice party pics Dervish

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Originally posted by Superstar Actually smoking laws are different province to province. I think they are the same as liquor laws and in most provinces the age limit is 18 years old. The reason that I personally think this was done was because Ontario used to have an extra year of high school called OAC, which was basically grade 13. So by the time most students got into first year of university they were 19 years old and I think the law came from that. In all the other provinces, and Ontario now too, there are 12 grades, so most people get into university at age 18.

well, they better change it back before march 31st then

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Hey! what do you mean we can't handle our alcohol... we handle it just fine... and then throw it up a few hours later!

hehehehe, i tried that here too havent been really drunk since lol...

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I'd like to see the drinking age lowered to 16 and let bars/restaurants serve till 3am... that extra hour really does help . Just go out and party in Montreal and you'll see!

yeah, they should! its 2 am in sweden too (except in stockholm where its 5 on many places)....

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Originally posted by Dervish Remeber the Uk is in europe and we are probebly one of the worst nations for getting wreaked. Under age (-18) drinking starts early here say 12, one of mates had to have his guts pumped from drinking too much whisky at 13 or 14. Anyway the proof (though actually we don't look to drunk in these, wish I could link the movie I took on the bus on the way home you'd see then hehehe.) Thats a french guy and a spanish guy sandwiching a scottish(i think) girl. And the french guy has another french guy behind him..... ....

Wow. What a group of fools! If you're not drunk in those pictures, you are clearly lacking a few gaggles of brain cells from something else. Methamphetamines perhaps?

Lol yeah maybe a bit drunk.... hehehe in the last one I look wreaked for some reason.

I supose like alot of people have said it's really a cultural thing. If your brought up in enviroment where "getting wreaked" (not knocking it I say that alot) can be the aim of the night, you'll do it.

But I'd say that there isn't a difference between either side of the pond really. Everyone yound loves a good time. Only difference is possibly the prevalance of underage drinking(litrally everyone does it here). Personally I think 18 is a good age, 21 is just taking the piss, your old enough to get married, die for your country and vote but not buy yourelf a drink. I mean you could get married at 16 then not be able to buy yourself a three year anniversary bottle of champagne. Weird.

Germany Drinking Age - 16
American Drinking Age- 21

German Driving Age - 18
American Driving Age -16

German Rural Highway Speedlimit - none
American Rural Highway Speedlimit- 70-65mph / 80-100kph

German Traffic Deaths per 1,000 - .75
American Traffic Deaths per 1,000 - .85




i dont like these statistics. i really dont see how 18 year olds are old enough to risk their lives in a war, but arent allowed to drink.

Re: Age restrictions

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew in the US you have to be 21 to drink alchol (and it is actually enforced unlike most eurpean countries where its not), but 18 to kill people in Iraq. In canada you responsible enought to vote at 18, but must be 19 to buy a lighter.... sweden is quite stric on this too (18 for most things), but most other european countries (except norway and perhaps some more..) have much less strict laws, for example in denmark you can be 15 and buy alcohol legally (and much lower illegally ). obviously people in those countries with lower age limits drink more, but they drink "better" imo, they kinda know how to handle it, while in for example canada they suck at handeling alcohol. so whats your thoughts on age limits? good/bad? lower/higher?

The US won't deploy anyone under 18 overseas to a non-US territory or possesssion in the armed forces. Seas don't count. Has to deal with age old agreements about not having children fighting wars. Drinking's another story, but 18 year olds can vote as well if they don't like local liquor laws.


[[[smoke]]]

i'm Russian so naturally i've been drinking Vodka and beer since i was like 4...fuck the bullshit age restrictions!

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