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The Middle East thread
By Pamela Constable in Peshawar
The Afghan was perched on a tea sack in his nephew's market stall, fingering his prayer beads and muttering. Every few minutes tears welled in his eyes.
He had reached the Pakistani city of Peshawar after travelling two days from Kabul and sneaking across the border. A sheaf of letters was in his pocket, bearing identical, handwritten messages from his panic-stricken neighbourhood. He would not return home, he vowed, until they had been delivered.
The letters were addressed, in the Afghan Pashto language, to George Bush, Pervez Musharraf, Vladimir Putin, Kofi Annan and the leaders of China, Iran, France, Britain, India and Saudi Arabia.
"The world must know what is happening in Afghanistan," Mohammed Sardar said, his voice ragged with anxiety and anger. "The terrorists and the leaders are still free, but the people are dying, and there is no-one to listen to us. I must get to President Bush and the others and tell them they are making a terrible mistake."
Mr Sardar, 46, a taxi driver and father of 12, said his family had spent night after night listening to the bombing in their neighbourhood south of Kabul. One night during the first week, he said, a bomb aimed at a nearby radio station struck a house, killing all five members of the family living there.
"There was no sign of a home left. We just collected the pieces of bodies and buried them."
Mr Sardar's lonely, quixotic mission reflects the desperation and naivete of Afghans, who have been virtually cut off from the outside world during two weeks of United States-led military assaults. The Afghan people, he said, had no idea if anyone knew or cared what was happening to their country.
Most telephone communication is gone, television is banned, and most news is filtered through Taliban-controlled radio.
Thousands of people have fled Kabul, trying to reach the Pakistani border. The official crossing point 80 kilometres west of Peshawar has been sealed by authorities on both sides.
Three weeks ago, before the bombing began, Mr Sardar managed to reach Islamabad, the Pakistani capital, with another sheaf of letters asking world leaders not to attack Afghanistan. Unable to deliver them, he returned home and then snuck back on Monday for a second attempt.
This time he made it only as far as Peshawar, where he spent the night with his nephew, who sells imported tea from a stall. Another of Mr Sardar's relatives sat with a friend at the stall. Both are grizzled men in their 40s, natives of Kabul who had spent their youths at war. First they took part in the armed resistance to occupying Soviet troops in the 1980s; then they joined rival Islamic militias that fought each other for control of Kabul, turning the once-elegant capital into a shell-pocked wasteland.
Now, with their country under US bombardment and its political fate uncertain, the two veterans vowed never again to let factional disputes destroy what remains of their homeland.
"We were fighters and enemies once, but not any more," said Abdul Hamid.
"Our city and our country were ruined by foreign countries, and now it can happen again. The only hope is for all of us to get together, overcome our differences and work for peace."
As he listened from atop his sack, Mr Sardar shook his head and sighed repeatedly in agitation. A frail man who never fought in the Afghan wars, he witnessed their brutal impact.
"All the terror in Afghanistan has been caused by other countries. Iran, Russia, the Americans - they all gave these groups money to kill our brothers and sisters."
During the Taliban's five-year rule, he said, "there has been so much intervention by [Saudi] Arabia and Pakistan. Now we are asking them all, 'Please do not intervene again. Go away and leave us in peace.'"
The Washington Post
In his last recorded interview, the terrorist tells Robert Fisk why he so despises America.
Osama bin Laden is a tall, slim man, and when he walks towards me surrounded by his Arab mujahideen guerillas in the mountains of Afghanistan, he towers over his companions. Huge insects fly through the night air, settling like burrs on his Saudi robes and on the clothes of his men.
Bin Laden's narrow eyes and long beard were familiar amid the battlefields of Afghanistan where he and his guerillas fought the Soviet invasion army of the '80s. His appearance is little changed, the beard a trifle greyer, perhaps, but the fierceness unquenched. Then he fought the Russians. Now, determined to overthrow the monarchy in Saudi Arabia and oust the Americans from that kingdom, he is describing the bombings that slaughtered 24 Americans in Riyadh [in 1995] and Khobar-Dhahran [in 1996] as a symbol of Saudi anger, the presence of US forces as an "insult" to the Saudi people.
For bin Laden, the betrayal of the Saudi people began 24 years before his birth, when Abdul Aziz al-Saud proclaimed his kingdom in 1932.
"The regime started under the flag of applying Islamic law, and under this banner all the people of Saudi Arabia came to help the Saudi family take power," he says as the night wind moves through the darkened trees, ruffling the robes of the Arab Afghan fighters around us. "Abdul Aziz did not apply Islamic law; the country was set up for his family. Then, after the discovery of petroleum, the Saudi regime found another support - the money to make people rich and give them the services and life they wanted and to make them satisfied." He is picking his teeth with a piece of miswak wood, a habit that accompanies many of his conversations.
History - or his version of it - is the basis of almost all his remarks. And the pivotal date is 1990, the year Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait.
"When the American troops entered Saudi Arabia, the land of the two holy places [Mecca and Medina], there was a strong protest from the ulema [religious authorities] and from students of the sharia law all over the country against the interference of American troops. This big mistake by the Saudi regime of inviting the American troops revealed their deception. They had given their support to nations that were fighting against Muslims. They helped the Yemeni communists against the southern Yemeni Muslims and helping [Yasser] Arafat's regime fight Hamas [who opposed the peace process in the Middle East]. After it insulted and jailed the ulema 18 months ago, the Saudi regime lost its legitimacy ...
"The Saudi people have remembered now what the ulema told them and they realise America is the main reason for their problems. The ordinary man knows that his country is the largest oil producer in the world, yet at the same time he is suffering from taxes and bad services. Now the people understand the speeches of the ulemas in the mosques - that our country has become an American colony. They act decisively with every action to kick the Americans out of Saudi Arabia. What happened in Riyadh and Khobar [when 24 Americans were killed in two bombings] is clear evidence of the huge anger of Saudi people against America. The Saudis now know their real enemy is America."
IT was a construction company that made bin Laden's family into millionaires, but it was its convoys of earth-moving trucks, bulldozers and quarrying equipment that took him to war. The Afghan conflict against the Russians moulded bin Laden, taught him the meaning of his religion, made him think.
Anyone who wants to understand the man whom Bill Clinton dubbed "America's Public Enemy No1" should study this moment in his life. The West regarded him as a hero. In those days the young Arabs whom he brought to Afghanistan to fight the Soviet occupation army were treated as heroes; in Britain, The Times used to call them "freedom fighters". Few noticed, or bothered to study, the theological implications of the West's support for the mujahideen.
One of the reasons Leonid Brezhnev was persuaded to send his troops into Afghanistan was the reports that large areas of the country had fallen under the sway of Muslim fundamentalists. Schoolteachers, installed by the communist regime in Kabul, were being assassinated. Even when the mujahideen were shooting at civil airliners with British-made Blowpipe missiles, they were not called "terrorists".
Bin Laden saw his comrades die in their hundreds, while he survived Russian kidnap attempts. Eventually, he was sickened by the factional fighting among the Afghans that followed the departure of the Russians and he moved to Sudan, using his wealth to finance road construction projects north of Khartoum. It was while he was here, in the years after the Afghan war, that reports came from Egypt and Algeria of Arabs returning home in Afghan clothes, many of them deeply religious, contemptuous of the corruption of secular governments, doctrinal to the point of self-righteousness.
When I first met bin Laden, in 1993, he was building a highway to connect the village of Almatig to Khartoum for the first time, shaking hands with the grateful villagers, worshipped by the local sheikh. Bin Laden shook hands with each man, watched by the young Arab fighters and clearly enjoying the adoration.
There is something of the evangelist about bin Laden; not the friendly apostle but the fire-breathing preacher, a hermit of such conviction that argument is out of the question. For the Americans, his epic certainties constitute his greatest danger. Bin Laden is not a man who does deals.
He embarked on another construction; a new motorway between Khartoum and Port Sudan. By now, Egyptian newspapers were claiming that bin Laden was helping to organise an Islamist resistance to President Hosni Mubarak's rule from "training camps" in Sudan. "The rubbish of the media and the embassies," bin Laden retorted. He kept a home in Khartoum, only a small apartment in his native Jeddah. His four wives lived with him in Sudan. Three of them were later to follow him back to Afghanistan, along with his two sons.
He had watched his beloved Afghanistan torn apart by greedy men who had forgotten their religion. Now he saw corruption in Egypt, in all the Arab nations that had adopted a facade of Western life; above all, in Saudi Arabia. Under pressure from the Americans, the Sudanese told bin Laden to leave and so he returned to the land where he had been a hero. Some say he travelled back to Afghanistan via Saudi Arabia; certainly, he has many sympathisers there, including some members of the royal family. In those initial months back in Afghanistan, he must have decided that if he could defeat the Russians he could also defeat America.
Saudi Arabia, he concluded, had become "an American colony". Ordinary Saudis realised the imprisoned ulemas were right: US troops had stayed on in the kingdom, despite their promise to leave. "The Saudis now know their real enemy is America." Did not the Europeans resist German occupation in World War II? bin Laden suddenly asked. I told him this parallel was morally wrong, that no European would accept the argument because the Nazis killed millions of Europeans; the Americans had never murdered a single Saudi.
"We as Muslims have a strong feeling that binds us together," he replied. "We feel for our brothers in Palestine and Lebanon. The explosion at Khobar did not come as a direct result of American occupation but as a result of American behaviour against Muslims ... When 60 Jews are killed inside Palestine [in suicide bombings earlier this year] all the world gathers within seven days to criticise this action, while the deaths of 600,000 Iraqi children [after UN sanctions were placed on Iraq] did not receive the same reaction. Killing those Iraqi children is a crusade against Islam. We, as Muslims, do not like the Iraqi regime but we think that the Iraqi people and their children are our brothers and we care about their future."
Ultimately, all Muslims will unite in the fight against America, says bin Laden. "I believe that sooner or later the Americans will leave Saudi Arabia and that the war declared by America against the Saudi people means war against all Muslims everywhere. Resistance against America will spread in many, many places in Muslim countries. Our trusted leaders, the ulema, have given us a fatwa that we must drive out the Americans. The solution to this crisis is the withdrawal of American troops ... their military presence is an insult for the Saudi people."
Yet did not the Americans support the mujahideens' war against the Soviets? "We were never at any time friends of the Americans. We knew that the Americans support the Jews in Palestine and that they are our enemies. Most of the weapons that came to Afghanistan were paid for by the Saudis on the orders of the Americans because Turki al-Faisal [the head of Saudi external intelligence] and the CIA were working together."
So what kind of Arabian Islamic state does he wish to see? Would thieves and murderers still have their heads cut off, for example, in a sharia-governed state? Bin Laden's answer is unsatisfactory. All Muslims would love to live under true sharia, he said. A guilty man would only be happy if he was justly punished.
Dissident bin Laden may be. But moderate, never.
The Independent
Based on the last recorded interview given by bin Laden, in 1996
yep nice article...i mite post sumthing good here in a bit...
btw..i dont mean to demean this thread in anyway, but who is that amazingly hot chic in ur sig??
peace
| quote: |
| Originally posted by AnotherWay83 yep nice article...i mite post sumthing good here in a bit... btw..i dont mean to demean this thread in anyway, but who is that amazingly hot chic in ur sig?? peace |
Tranz,
Thats an interesting article...I think it just furthers the obvious feeling that bin Laden has that all "Americans" are out to get him...... I have read this kind of stuff before.. it seems they think America is waging a war on Islam, or Muslims.... I don't think thats the case. As much as a lot of people dislike America for its actions, America only "acts" when wrongdoing of a serious nature is being done to another, helpless people.
Take for instance the war in the Gulf.... the US occupied Saudi Arabia (with their permission), to help protect Kuwait from Iraq. Saudi Arabia is on the border of Iraq, hence our occupation. As the reporter stated, i don't believe any Saudi's were harmed or killed during our occupation. Our occupation was not to keep Saudi Arabia "in check" but rather to keep Saddam Hussein "in check". Since Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are like brothers, i think our occupation was in both of our best interests. We also HAD to go out and fight that war, b/c we get about 50%(i think) of our oil reserves from Kuwait. We would be stupid not to act on it.
I am not too familiar with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, as to when it all started, etc.... but i'm pretty sure it has to do with fighting over the "holy land"...... Now, the US's role in this... i don't know. Its been going on long before i could understand. But i do know that the USA would not just "take sides" for no reason. I think we all know this. There must have been some extreme event that made the USA sympathize with the Israelis. I know the Israelis have commited serious crimes against the Palestinians, and i know the Palestinians have done likewise... but from my knowledge the Isrealis have been practically screaming for peace the last ten years or so, right?
Bin Laden is a smart man, but misguided i think. I believe he is blinded by religion and faith... He also thinks the world is out to get muslims. I don't know all about that religion, but is there some belief in there that requires wars and/or taking over of other countries. Because their disputes were going on LONG before the US ever got involved... Iraq's decision to invade Kuwait was not coerced by the USA....
It also seems as though bin Laden didn't really hold any anger against the Soviets, who attacked Afghanastan awhile back... seems all the anger is pointed at the Americans.
I think that bin Laden doesn't like the fact that Americans get involved with everything. I think he wants us to keep to ourselves. I can understand that to a degree. I don't think America should get involved in half the things it does.... but its necessary. If we have interests somewhere, whether it be Americans living in that country, or whether it be trade, like for oil or goods..... and that country gets invaded, we HAVE to do something.... we can't sit idly by and let other countries bully others just b/c they can. Its like a teacher on the playground when a lot of kids get into a fight, you know? you can't just "let everything be", b/c some countries are too small or too young to help themselves. I think all in all, america is just "lookin' out" for everyone.
Bin Laden seems really upset about the whole "america occupying saudi" thing.... he seems to think that we are trying to take over saudi arabia.... i don't think thats really the case. Bin Laden has been known to hate the Americans since way before the Gulf war, and that was before the USA had a mass occupation in Saudi. I think bin Laden was told some harsh bedtime stories when he was young, and was led to believe strong, anti-american sentiments.....
You guys know how it can be, all you have to do is hear something, and you will be the most vocal person in the world about it..... look at these forums, for instance. Some posts on topics people can be VERY strong about, and may have never even seen or read anything on it... just go based on what they've heard. ... something to think about anyways.
As far as those letters from the Afghan citizens go.... i sympathize with them, i really do...... but i feel so upset that a lot of them are misinformed as to what is going on... all they know is what they HEAR from the Taliban... propaganda. If only i could reach out to them and tell them what is going on, tell them what is happening.... if only they knew that all those food drops in Afghanastan are COMING from americans....
There's only so much you can do.........
-ABT-
I dont really have much to add...BUT the chick in trazmits sig is Angir Harmon from Law and Order. Married to Jason Seahorn of the New York Giants(NFL) Shes a hottie and a half.
Same here i don't really know what i should add but you have to know that all this bin laden stuff is only political , and they are using the religion as a kevlar to justify what they are doing ...
As for the conflict in the middle-east , America is taking the side of Israel because Jewish people are controlling everything in America , from politics to media , they are the one who finance the presidential campaigns for each president , they are the owners of the major media networks , they are the one who control the cinema industry , etc ... why there are a lot of israelians claimming that jerusalem is their holy land while they don't even believe in God , and they call themselves jewish ... ??
As for the gulf war , it's a well known fact that America was protecting their oil ... maybe the Saudi guvernment agreed the American occupation in it's soil , but the population never accepted that . Saudia is also a holy land for the muslims , it's the land of our Prophet ... You have to know that ALL the Arab countries (yes ALL of them even Morocco) are guverned by tyrans , dictators and despotes . However , America and all the other rich countries keep on supporting them ...
We all know Saddam is an asshole , and we all know that America/Britain - if they want - they can easily kill Saddam and free the Iraki population , instead of that , they keep on bombing innocents and they don't wanna remove that damn embargo . Did u know that more than 6000 persons die each month because of that embargo ? have u ever seen the little Iraki kids on TV ?
that's just my two cents ...
"America is taking the side of Israel because Jewish people are controlling everything in America , from politics to media , they are the one who finance the presidential campaigns for each president , they are the owners of the major media networks , they are the one who control the cinema industry , etc ... why there are a lot of israelians claimming that jerusalem is their holy land while they don't even believe in God , and they call themselves jewish ... ?? "
*puke*
Stick your antisemitism up your....
are we a lill' bit jealous here? Reminds on nazi-propaganda that "jews control the world" philosophy of yas.
YES they own a lot but do u think it was all given to them for free? They EARNED it all, european emigrants who built up hollywood and the wall street on their own, now is it something bad? i dont think so.
If Moroccon immigrant built up film studios in the US or founded big newspaper, i wouldnt give a f****. who cares if its jews, morocons or indians?
well, you do.
Now lets see what this so called Jewish lobby really affects...
id say: nothing. This lobby exists for 100 years now and until 1967 the US didnt give a f... about Israel. And how come that despite that soooo big an powerful lobby no1 made the americans bomb train rails to auschwitz? ah maybe u donno about auschwitz, and the holocaust at all: i forgot, theres no single arabic book about the holocaust.
The US doesnt give a f### about the jews nor about arabs..they want the best for themselves only. You see it now: Bush wants arab support in his war and therefore claiming that israel withdraws from palestinian territories.
and dont u stupid judge about our religion. as i see u donno shit about judaism. ZION is the holy land and Jerusalm the holy city(btw. some 1500 years longer than islam exists at all) EVERY jew worldwide, even if hes not too religious sees jer. as the holiest place in the world. Every year theres a holiday that ends with the sentence : Next year in Jerusalem!,,,that was when the jews were driven out of Israel
more than 2000 years ago.
and we wont let ...... like you seem to be to take this holy place away from us..
simple as that.
Whenever someone speaks sincerly here he's an antisemit ... what the hell is this ??
Did i say i'm jealous ?
Did i say why the Moroccans or Indians or whatever don't own anything ?
Of course i know the holocaust and yes they thought us at school about all the nazi crimes made in europe in WW2 , it's silly to say that there's no arabic book about holocaust since u don't even speak Arabic or have been to an Arabic school . It's also silly to justify everything with the holocaust , everytime there's a peaceful discussion about this , someone comes with the "holocaust" story ...
And as far as i know i didn't judge your religion , i said someone who doesn't believe in God musn't call himself religious or whatever . Stop making me saying what i have never said . Did i say i know a lot of stuffs about Judaism ? Did i say i'm going to take Jerusalem away from you ?
Sincerly i don't even know why i'm answering u , u used a lot of insults , u don't even deserve my attention . If u want to speak with me in a peaceful way ur welcome , otherwise u can keep ur words for you ... be respectful as i am please
"Whenever someone speaks sincerly here he's an antisemit"--referring to what? never seen such a comment. I used the word cause the whole "jews own it all" thing IS antisemitic�. it was one of the main slogans of the nazis, thats a fact, period.
u didnt say you're jealous, i felt you are. My philosophy is that hatered's based on jealousy. If u come here cryin about how much the jews controll and own, i sense a lill' bit o' jealousy, too.
And now its YOU whos putting words into my mouth, things i never sayed. ". It's also silly to justify everything with the holocaust ". where do i justify anything with the holocaust? and by the way, id be careful with euphemistic phrases like "the "holocaust" story ". why "(!)holocaust"(!) anyway?
Jews are not only members of a ertain religion but a people too. Originally living in what is today Israel. So there IS a historical+religious connection to this land!
"i said someone who doesn't believe in God musn't call himself religious or whatever" thats what i say too, but what does that have to do with the conflict anyway?
Is every plestinian religious? no. why do pleastinians want east-jerusalem?
u see.
im not fond of insulting but i cant stand the way ure attacking israel in every single thread..
If i was attacking Israel in every single thread , i wouldn't be speaking with luckystrike & DJ-Energy every day , i wouldn't even put my feet here . And i wasn't crying about how much the jews control and own and i was just stating a fact . If i was crying i would be using words such as "why the jews bla bla bla ... and we don'"t have nothing ??" . As for justifying things with the holocaust , i was talking about the fact that every time there's a discussion about the conflict in the middle-east someone comes in and say "we endured the holocaust" . We know that the jews endured the holocaust and even Hitler was planning to kill the arabs also . Yes jews are people too but please don't tell me the Polish/Rusians/Etc ... were living in in the middle-east before the Arabs . And it's not only the palestinians who want jerusalem , but all the muslims because it's one of our holy lands too , Muslims used to pray in direction of Jerusalem before , our Prophet also have been there . You have to understand that it's a religious place for us too .
Oh yes another political thread and more stupid comments. Perhaps its abit too dangerous to say that the whole economie and things like that is controlled by jews, thats certainly not the case. but they have a big influence (nothing wrong here) in the important things, and its clear that they support the jews in israel more than the arabs (israel was founded to give the jews a country they never had, an idea I can understand, but the same time, they took land from the arabs, and you have to understand that they're now angry. You cant come to them with the jewish tragedy @ww2, because they have big problems of their own and they do not give a shit about past events affecting other groups). These whole israel-thing is a mess, and very difficult to solve. Oh and why hate america because of israel? because they were (with GB and others) supporters of foundation of the state israel which took land away from the arabs. back to the present. I think this mess ccan only be solved by seperating these 2 groups and found a state palastina. the problem is where to draw a line. but its terrible to have such a mess inside your country woith your own people. There will be battles as well, but most of them will perhaps come from the outside which is much easier to handle than inner conflicts. all this religious crap is so stupid, only cause problems, holy land bullshit, just draw a line and live in peace.
Oh and im not jealous of anybody. I mean I go to University and will have a good live I hope and I couldnt give a lesser shit if some jew (or some arab) has more power than I. And please dont use this "jealousy-topic" no more because its getting annoying.
Oh and most of these governments are not representatives of their people, so dont say if the corrupt-saudi-gov. accept the presence of the US in the "holy land" (bullshit, but you have somehow to accept their view, or else you will face even more problems) its ok and justified.
And can someone tell me what these bombings (beside dead civilizians) have brought to us? Now the gov. declares that they have perhaps underestimated the taliban! lol what dumbfucks, think before you do something you have no idea about. In an attemp to justify the still-not-dead-body-of-osama they declared that kill osama is not so important (I can remember that I heard some other word some way back).
So that should be enough for the moment. Im not a fan of these 100-site-long messages...
Just something ive read:
The US put severe *fuck-wheres-the-right-word*...power(?) on a german concern (Bayer) who produces somwhat medicine against anthrax. They said that bayer must sell their product with 50% of the original price or else they will produce this medicine on their own (they arent allowed to do that because of the "patent") as a result of the "siege(=Notstand)". This is the same country who refuse to allow african countries to produce aids-medicine on their own. Just some facts: in the us died what, 5 persons of anthrax, in africa several hundred die every hour.
HOW IGNORANT IS THIS???
heres the orinal text (in german):
"D�sseldorf (dpa) - Die US-Anwaltskanzlei Gilman and Pastor hat eine Sammelklage gegen den Chemie- und Pharmakonzern Bayer AG angek�ndigt. Die Anw�lte werfen Bayer illegale Preisabsprachen beim Antibiotikum Ciprobay vor. Die US-Regierung hatte sich am Mittwoch mit Bayer auf die Lieferung von 100 Millionen Pillen zur Behandlung von Milzbrand geeinigt. Dabei wurde ein erheblich reduzierter Preis vereinbart. Die US- Regierung hatte Bayer mit einem Patentbruch gedroht, wenn der Konzern beim Preis und bei der Liefermenge keine Zugest�ndnisse mache."
I know exactly what you mean about Saddam FASTDJMP3, Americans and the Brits have had many chances to kill Saddam Hussian, British SAS are by far the best Special forces unit in the world, its is rumoured that they one time actually had a chance to kill Saddam a little while back, an assasination plot basicially ,and them dudes don't miss, but they assasinated a total different dude its rumoured like one of his generals, and he escaped just a rumour though but its probably true. The embargo on Iraqs bad, they need to punish Saddam not innocent people.
yo TranceGiant wasup..
readin all the above, me thinks that the reason fastDJmp3 mentioned that all media-economy-woteva-woteva in USA is owned by jews... is (no i aint readin brains ere but i guess 
) perhaps tryin to justify a reason why USA is supporting Isreal accordin to him. i don't see wher jealousy came into it.
So.. errrm.. keep it cool lads.
Religion-conflicts is bollox.
People should learn to mix with others regardless of wot bloody religion or faith they belong to.
I have friends who are Christians (catholics, orthodox), Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Singhs, as well as those who associate themselves with no relgion watsoeva (they don't believe in a god)
but even with that, i get along with them perfectly. we are always avin a laff and neva argued about wot each one believes in his religion or stuff like that.
well actually we had discussions a couple of times about each others religions.. which is quite interesting to see wot different religions believe.
keep it cool lads.. i am sittin on me arse while the lads are prolly on their way to the NEC gatecrasher rite now.
ARSE
PvT
errm, O'Callaghan u shud be goin too init?..
Damn, not again.
Now that u started telling us about History of the Mid- East Conflict i feel obliged to write it all down once again.
You know what i can't stand? The hypocritical "the jews should have a country, BUT they musnt take away arab land".
Now let's see whose land it was...
more than 100 years ago when Zionism was born, The Turkish owned Palestina and the whole Mid- East. Then after WW1 the British ruled the area. Never before have the arabs owned/ruled Palestina! The jews, however, did.
Polticially Palestina was never an arab country. However, there was an arab majority in Palestina at the time Jews emigrated (mostly Russian who were..per..DAMn was' da word 
..lets say: driven away)
The Jewish minority however had been living there for thousands of years, loonger than islam exists at all.
Now whose land was it really? Or: why didnt any1 complain when the British seperated Palestina and created what is today Jordan? They bulit Syria, too as well as Lebanon Iraq etc...NO ONE gave a f++++ but when the smallest piece of land was given to a people NOT muslim, they all got mad.
And it wasnt even the whole country! 1947: Partition plan to build TWO states, and the jews were those who agreed while the arabs prepared to "drive the jews into the sea".
I dont see where "arab land was taken away".
As i sayed, the jewish lobby doesnt have more to say than the arab one. And dont forget one thing: The strongest lobby in the US is this one: $$$$$$-meaning-Oil-meaning-arab oil.
Maybe he aint jealous but ill still say that i dont find it nice to kinda complain how much the jews own.
and dont tell me that jealousy ist just an irrelevant annoying topic. It's the root of antisemitism. Just look at the situation in the medieval time...Jews were the ones allowed to deal with the bank-business..rates etc. while the Christians werent(by the curch). That made the Jews "Liars and Thieves"..
Im not sayin fastdjmp3 is antisemitic, but hes using strongly ant-s. arguments, so im tellin him to be more careful..
and yes, u are attacking Israel in every thread dealing with politics. Taht doesnt make u an israeli-hater but id advice you to look at both sides.
I do know that jerusalem is holy for muslims too, thats no prob. for me. Im for a pal. state, but not now, sine theres no1 caring for isr. security on the pal. side.
As for Saddam/Osama/USA..i could write tons of pro and contra arguments but im sik of that subject kinda..
oh well
yeah I know that too. Its a very difficult situation. The problem is, that israel was not founded the natural way. Some guys from europe/america just said: now thats israel and its good. I know that both sides make bullshit, but I just tried to explain the situation out of an arab point of view (which you have to understand, otherwise problems cant be solved).
^^^^agreed.
*handshake*
| quote: |
| Originally posted by TranceGiant I do know that jerusalem is holy for muslims too, thats no prob. for me. Im for a pal. state, but not now, sine theres no1 caring for isr. security on the pal. side. |
No PVT I'm not going to the NEC I could of gone actually to think about it lol, but I was too lazy 
| quote: |
| Originally posted by FASTDJMP3 wow you're for a Palestinian state , but not for now , they can still suffer right ? now aren't u anti-arab ? jeez that's incredible ... |
^^^^ thats it.
im sick of discussing it
double jeez and good bye
on the other hands you have to ask you, if you are suffering from terrorism (and it occurs on both sides!) for a very linge time, if it isnt perhaps the better solution to give palastina its own state and end the "inner-terrorism" a bit. I mean, its quite obvious that there will be no peacefully solution beside give palastina its own state. ther will be perhaps attacks on israel as well. but its much more easier (especially for the civilizians) to live in a conflict with another country and not with its own people.
oh cweb...if it only was that simple...
believe me that more than 70% of the israelis (including me) wanna get rid of those, escuse me, shitty fucked up territories.
but not if their own security is risked and nowadays that is the case.
id also love to just get the hell ouuta westbank and gaza and build a big wall..but that wont solve the probs.
nice discussing with u tho, well surely nicer than with *cough* f..astd..jm..p *cough* 3..whos kinda too polemic
Thats great...
I still believe (what else can you do)
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