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Germans are "speaking out" about WWII
quote: War and Emerging Remembrance
German Veterans Begin to Add Narrative Piece to WWII
By Glenn Frankel
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, July 24, 2004; Page A01
METZINGEN, Germany -- The shifting current funneled the landing craft toward the eastern end of Omaha Beach, where they disgorged men directly below Hein Severloh's camouflaged machine gun nest. He recalls emptying belt after belt of ammunition, raking the shoreline for hours as wave upon wave of American GIs struggled through the blood-red surf.
"I did not shoot for the lust of killing but only to stay alive," said Severloh, 81, a tall, soft-spoken man who said he must have shot hundreds of Americans on June 6, 1944. "I knew if only a single one survived he would shoot me."
For years Severloh told no one but his wife of what he did on D-Day. He said it was partly out of fear he would be labeled a Nazi and a killer, but also because fellow Germans didn't want to discuss World War II or hear about the experiences of army veterans. But over the past few years, historians, journalists and admirers have beaten a path to his farmhouse in this sleepy village in western Germany; Severloh has published a war memoir, been interviewed repeatedly by television, newspapers and magazines and been the subject of a televised documentary. He said he is gratified and amazed at the attention he has received.
As this country focuses on World War II more than 60 years after it began, Severloh's memories of the Allied invasion of Europe are part of an examination long suppressed by Germans. After decades of shame, fear and self-imposed silence, German soldiers and civilian victims are now venturing to describe their perspectives of the war. Beyond the traditional portrait of World War II as an epic battle of good vs. evil, the emerging view reveals a more complex narrative. Severloh's story has become part of the modern mix.
"We have new generations with new questions, and people are interested in what happened during the war without prejudging," said Johannes Tuchel, director of the German Resistance Memorial Center in Berlin, a museum devoted to chronicling opposition to Adolf Hitler's rule. "We see, we know and we accept that Germany caused the war, but for the first time we are looking at all the aspects of what happened."
Unlocking the Memories
Germany officially participated this year for the first time in commemorating D-Day alongside the United States, France and Britain. Other moments for reevaluation have included the 60th anniversaries of the July 20, 1944, failed assassination attempt against Hitler and the Aug. 1, 1944, beginning of the Warsaw Uprising, a savage 63-day battle against Nazi occupation forces that ended in a tragic defeat for Poland.
Recognition of these events follows a wave of books, television documentaries and articles focusing for the first time on German victims of the war -- both the hundreds of thousands of civilians killed in the Allied fire bombings of major cities and the 13 million expelled from their homes in Eastern Europe. Next spring will bring celebrations of V-E Day -- Allied victory in Europe on May 8, 1945 -- and two films about Hitler that are expected to break the longstanding German taboo against portraying the Nazi dictator on-screen.
One reason for the renewed interest, analysts and historians say, is that members of the World War II generation are dying out, and people are keen to hear their stories firsthand before they vanish. Another reason stems from Germany's new role as a world power, with a more activist foreign policy and a willingness to dispatch peacekeeping troops to international trouble spots.
"If we want to participate in the world, we have to stand on firm soil as to the past," said former president Richard von Weizsaecker, 84, who also served as a young soldier in the German army in World War II.
Reinhard Hesse, the main speechwriter for Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder's D-Day and July 20th addresses, said the anniversaries have marked Germany's coming of age as a modern democracy. While the lessons of World War II used to be invoked as a rationale for Germans to avoid military operations, Hesse said, they are increasingly cited as a reason for Germans to become more involved.
For many Germans, the past was another country, a dark place shrouded by anguish, introspection and resentment. Gerhard Beick and Lothar Nickel are combat veterans who were drafted at age 19 and served in the legendary Afrika Korps -- in North Africa under Erwin Rommel. They recall coming home after the war from prisoner internment camps to cities in ruins and people obsessed with day-to-day survival, expressing no interest for the returning soldiers or their experiences.
"No one cared to hear about it and no one asked," Beick recalled. "We had all suffered, an entire generation. We came back to a destroyed country, destroyed cities, and we were interested only in personal survival. We tried to forget the war as much as possible."
There was always an undercurrent of guilt and suspicion. Nickel recalled that when Afrika Korps members began forming veterans groups in the 1950s, newspapers would not publish notices of their meetings, fearing that the men were surreptitiously reconstituting their old units.
"In the minds of a lot of people, we were seen as old Nazis," Nickel said. "But we were just young people dragged into the war."
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War and Emerging Remembrance
One of the most abiding controversies centers on the failed assassination attempt against Hitler by military officers and civilians led by Col. Claus von Schenk Stauffenberg. In the first decade after the war, said Winfried Heinemann, a historian with the German army's Military Research History Institute, many Germans viewed the conspirators as traitors who had violated their personal oath to Hitler. At the same time, the communist government of East Germany depicted the plotters as right-wing reactionaries who sought to kill Hitler to save their own necks when it was clear the war was lost. But in later years, the conspirators came to be honored as shining examples of German resistance in a manner that seemed to suggest their actions absolved other Germans of complicity with Hitler.
The popular view has evolved to the point where a recent poll in Der Spiegel, a weekly magazine, showed that 73 percent of those polled felt admiration or respect for the plotters and 10 percent expressed disapproval or contempt. This year's solemn anniversary ceremony, held in the cobblestone courtyard where Stauffenberg and three of his fellow conspirators were executed by firing squad on the night of the failed coup, brought together dignitaries and more than 100 relatives of the four executed men.
Schroeder's speech sought to connect the German dissidents with resistance movements in Poland, France and the Netherlands, saying these disparate groups constituted the first seeds of modern European unity. But he acknowledged that in Germany, the resistance constituted a very small minority.
One of those in attendance was Georg Freiherr von Loe, a high school science teacher in his early fifties whose grandfather was one of hundreds of conspirators executed after the plot failed. Von Loe said that he had not attended previous commemorations but that his feelings of guilt now that the older generation is passing and his attempt to deal with questions from his children compelled him to make the six-hour drive from his home in western Germany, along with his wife and two of his children.
He and his family found the experience both moving and disturbing. "We have not slept well these last few nights because we have been discussing it," he said. "We need time to process what we have experienced."
A Killing Machine
Severloh took 40 years to begin to process what happened to him on Omaha Beach. He had taken up a concealed position on the eastern side of the beach along with 30 other German soldiers, and he recalls watching the horizon turn black with dozens of ships and landing craft racing for the shore. His commanding officer, Lt. Bernhard Frerking, had told him not to open fire until the enemy reached knee-deep level, where he could get a full view.
"What came to mind was, 'Dear God, why have you abandoned me?' " he recalled. "I wasn't afraid. My only thought was, 'How can I get away from here?' "
But rather than run, Severloh slipped the first belt of ammunition into his MG-42 machine gun and opened fire. He could see men spinning, bleeding and crashing into the surf, while others ripped off their heavy packs, threw away their carbines and raced for the shore. But there was little shelter there. Severloh said he would occasionally put down the machine gun and use his carbine to pick off individual men huddled on the beach. He is still haunted by a soldier who was loading his rifle when Severloh took aim at his chest. The bullet went high and hit the man in the forehead.
"The helmet fell and rolled over in the sand," Severloh said. "Every time I close my eyes, I can see it."
Severloh said he was the last man firing from his position. By mid-afternoon, his right shoulder was swollen and his slender fingers were numb from constant firing. When a U.S. destroyer pinpointed his position and began to shell it, he fled to the nearby village of Colleville-Sur-Mer, where he was captured that evening.
In Severloh's telling of D-Day, there are few heroes and several surprises. The German occupiers had warm relations with their French farm hosts before the invasion, he contends. Lt. Frerking, who died on D-Day, was an honorable man who spoke fluent French and once gave one of his men 10 days' punishment for failing to help an elderly French woman with her shopping bags, Severloh said. The U.S. invaders slaughtered farm animals and soldiers, he said, yet that evening he and his ravenous U.S. captors shared a baguette.
Severloh said he first told his tale to an inquisitive correspondent for ABC News during the 40th anniversary of D-Day in 1984. But the real breakthrough came when an amateur war historian named Helmut Konrad von Keusgen tracked Severloh down. Von Keusgen, a former scuba diver and graphic artist, said he had heard from U.S. veterans about the machine gunner they called the "Beast of Omaha Beach" because he had mowed down hundreds of GIs that day. Severloh confessed he was that gunner. Von Keusgen ghost-wrote Severloh's memoirs, published in 2000, and still visits him regularly.
The two men contend that Severloh might have shot more than 2,000 GIs. That's an impossible figure, according to German and American historians, who say that although the numbers are far from exact, estimates are that about 2,500 Americans were killed or wounded by the 30 German soldiers on the beach.
"My guess is yes, he helped kill or wound hundreds, but how many hundreds would be hard to say," Roger Cirillo, a military historian at the Association of the U.S. Army in Arlington, wrote in an e-mail. He added: "Omaha is like Pickett's Charge. The story has gotten better with age, though no one doubts it was a horror show. Men on both sides were brave beyond reason, and this is the sole truth of the story."
Hein Severloh said he takes no pride in what he did, but telling his tale has given him a sense of relief.
"I have thought about it every single day that God gave to me," he said. Now, he said, "the pressure is gone."
Researcher Shannon Smiley in Berlin contributed to this report.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2004Jul23.html
Huh. That's funny. From the title you would think that you would gain some amazing new perspective about why the Germans slaughtered thousands of people - This article didn't say jack shit.
How many people did they allies "slaughter"? I dont think most of the Germans that faught in WW2 were Nazis, they had no choice, just like the Ennglish that were sent to fight (and then the Americans a few years later)
Here is a surprising quote:
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One of the most amazing aspects of WWII, and one of the least well known, is the incredibly large number of foreign volunteers that joined the German Armed Forces between 1939 and 1945. During WWII, nearly 2,000,000 foreigners served within the German fighting forces, many as willing volunteers, others through varying degrees of conscription. The reasons these volunteers joined the German Wehrmacht were varied, but a simple look at the numbers begins to tell the story - in the East alone nearly 1,000,000 men volunteered for service with Germany. This number is a direct result of the situation millions faced under the brutal rule of the Soviet Empire. Many foreign volunteers and conscripts were anonymously intergrated into all areas of the military, while a great number of others formed distict units consisting either partly or entirely of volunteers of specific ethnic, cultural or political backgrounds. These units were employed in all varieties of combat tasks from carrying wounded and supplies, to fighting partisans, to serving on the front line. Some of these units would prove to be tenacious and elite formations - the match of any regular German units - while others would prove worthless in serious combat. Some units even mutinied and resisted the Germans after having been fully trained and armed! In the end, many volunteers were openly slaughtered by the partisans, and in some cases by the Allies themselves, while most others were handed over to their respective former homelands. In most cases, as with those sent to the former Soviet Union, these volunteers would never be seen again. |
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His propaganda was to call constantly for: 1) Thereversal of the outcome of World War I by the nullification of the Treaty of Versailles: Hovland's and others' research into persuasion suggests that people whose self-esteem is low are more readily persuaded than others. Because of the defeat in World War I, the collapse of the currency, the inability of government to govern and, later, mass unemployment, the self-esteem of Hitler's audience would have been low. By concentrating on the Treaty of Versailles as the underlying cause of those problems, Hitler was able to make it clear to his audience that their problems were not their fault and to provide them with a clear goal to ameliorate their circumstances. 2)anti-Communism: By focusing much of his attack on Communism, Hitler was able to play on the fears of the lower middle classes. These were the potentially upwardly mobile classes. Whatever wealth they had begun to accumulate had already been threatened by inflation and was then again threatened by unemployment. Hitler could present Bolshevism as yet another threat to their wealth. The presentation of Bolshevism as threatening middle class wealth is not dissimilar from Thatcher's appeal to the 'C2s' (the lower middle classes) whose upward mobility was presented as under threat from socialism. Further, since Communism was clearly internationalist, Hitler could present it as a threat to true German values. His tendency to use the term 'Bolshevism' rather than 'Communism' helped to emphasize the Slav origins of this threat. He also linked it with the supposed international Jewish conspiracy and was also able to blame Bolsheviks for the defeat of Germany in the First World War - with some justice, perhaps, since Lenin was known to have espoused 'revolutionary defeatism' and the only German MP to have called openly for surrender was the Communist Karl Liebknecht. 3)demands for Lebensraum (room to expand) for the German people: Again an appeal to the national sense of identity, as well as an appeal to low self-esteem. Germany was quite peculiar in comparison with other European countries in that there were several enclaves of German-speaking peoples dotted around Europe. The Austrians, of course, were also German-speakers and had been the Germans' allies in World War I. Hitler was able to point to the 'pollution' of these groups by the Slavs and other peoples who surrounded them. 'Heim ins Reich' (home into the Reich) became his rallying call. To an extent also, Germany had lost out in the scramble for colonies in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries and had also lost in the Treaty of Versailles whatever overseas possessions she had obtained. Thus, the demand for Lebensraum could be presented as the same right as the Allies' to develop an Empire and the lack of German Lebensraum could be laid at the door of the Allies' unfairness in the Treaty of Versailles. 4)virulent hatred of the Jews: Here Hitler appealed to an already widespread anti-Semitism. Of course, although anti-Semitism had long been prevalent in Germany, it is not the case that all Germans, or even the majority, were opposed to the Jews. Many Jews (for example Rosa Luxemburg, the Social Democrat and later Spartacist leader) had enjoyed broad popular support. However, Hitler was able through his anti-Semitism to appeal to large sectors of the German population. He presented the Jews as unGerman, a threat to the central values of German culture, just as we have seen the modern media do so with their attacks on folk devils. Many people were naturally casting around for someone to blame. The Jews provided an easy target. Hitler was also careful to ensure that his Nazi followers took part in attacks on Jews. Cognitive dissonance theory suggests that engaging in behaviour that runs counter to our values is likely in fact to bring about a shift in those values. Thus, members of the NSDAP who may have found anti-Semitism abhorrent, would take part in such actions because they agreed with the party's policies as a whole and out of loyalty to their group. Once they had taken part in such action, their attitudes towards Jews would adjust so as to reduce the cognitive dissonance set up by their participation. 5)calls for a F�hrer dictatorship: Hitler was quite open about his intention to be a dictator. He despised democracy for its weakness and its tendency always to result in an 'average' outcome. In his view democracy was guaranteed to result in half measures and to frustrate those true visionaries amongst the Germans who could lead them to a truly German future. In the chaos of the Weimar Republic he would have had no difficulty showing that democracy was not working. There is ample evidence too that in times of social upheaval and confusion people yearn for a strong person who will show them the simple solutions and lead them out of the current chaos. One has only to consider Thatcher: she promised the British people firm leadership, she promised to put the 'Great' back in 'Great Britain', she promised them extremely unpleasant medicine for their economic malaise whilst constantly assuring them that 'there is no alternative' (the TINA doctrine), she openly despised most of her cabinet colleagues as 'wets' and, at the height of the social chaos her policies had plunged the country into, she proclaimed 'the lady's not for turning'. And the British voted for her again and again. Similarly, when Gorbachev's policies of greater openness and restructuring had removed the old certainties in the Soviet Union, he found himself confronted by marchers carrying placards of Stalin and calling for the return of the old Communist dictatorship. |
what the German soldiers was not bad. They did what soldiers are meant to do. However what the Nazis did was bad and most ppl pnly remember the Nazis not the German who was fighting for his country.
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| Originally posted by x-filer what the German soldiers was not bad. |
| quote: |
Germany officially participated this year for the first time in commemorating D-Day alongside the United States, France and Britain. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by x-filer what the German soldiers was not bad. They did what soldiers are meant to do. However what the Nazis did was bad and most ppl pnly remember the Nazis not the German who was fighting for his country. |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley How many people did they allies "slaughter"? I dont think most of the Germans that faught in WW2 were Nazis, they had no choice, just like the Ennglish that were sent to fight (and then the Americans a few years later) |
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| Originally posted by Q5echo do you ever wonder how many dive bomber pilots were "actual" Nazis during the battle of Britain? what would you have done in the defence of your little island? |
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| Originally posted by zig I dont think thats his point.. I think his point is more like this..and he can correct me if im wrong.. We allready know what the brits did to defend their small little island...they fought against the odds..as america didnt come into the war until much later on and began to recognoise the fact after Pearl harbour..ie a direct attack on american soil and only then did they fully appreciate such attacks on their terroitory..Britian had experienced these attacks for years and had fought the nazis at home and abroad..and suffered enourmous casulties..as did many european countries before the americans ever participated.. I think his point is more about guilt on both sides.. During the closing stages of the war in europe the allies committed many attrocities and slaughter insued mainly the fire bombing of cities in germany...Dresdan Hamburg and many others were fire bombed and tens of thousands of civilians died in the course of about a week...this was later written out of history for many decades..and history now tells us that these attacks werent needed..because germany was defeated for all intent and purpose.. other attrocities would argueably include that the allies knew(probably for a fact) the existence of concentration camps in central europe..and didnt bomb the rail links that led to them.. Basically the allies were pretty good at slaughtering as well.. |
in reality though almost all of Europe hated jews(not to the point of genocide) so hitler was looking for a scapegoat, and the best scapegoat is a one that people already despise. As many know the german public had little to no idea of jewish labor/slaughter camps, they were in a depression far worse than our own and would take anyone to help them. The embaressment of WWI and the Treaty of Versaille didnt sit well either. There pride was hurt and worse there government sucked, which made it even easier for Hitler to attain power.
^^
In reality.. thats true. From the time of the egyptians till today. Jews are discriminated.
As cartman from Southpark would say.. "God damn, thank god i wasnt born a Jew"
"Screw u fat ass!!"
"SCREW U JEW!!!"
| quote: |
| Originally posted by trewqy ^^ In reality.. thats true. From the time of the egyptians till today. Jews are discriminated. As cartman from Southpark would say.. "God damn, thank god i wasnt born a Jew" "Screw u fat ass!!" "SCREW U JEW!!!" |
Well the Japs got away with the most of the shit they did during WWII, especially the massacre of people they though disgraced themsevles... 
What a load of BS... War is a ugly game it's already bloody i dunno... nearly 60 years now... why complain, when a whole generation of the old troopers have died out?
The War was an lesson for European... and for mostly the rest of the world that, war was generated from a political theme, and that over exaggeration of a particular 'theory' or 'idea' is consider incorrect 
. It seems they have learnt 'quite' well imho...
P.S. Don't get into the conspiracy shitz... it's happened, and mainstream ideas/history was recorded via the Jewish-American perspective, so everybody should just shut about it .
Its was the rest of Europe shafting Germany are WW1 that caused Hitler to gain power.
i cant really blame the average german for going along with it, if we where in the same situation majority of us would aswell.
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| Originally posted by zig I dont think thats his point.. I think his point is more like this..and he can correct me if im wrong.. We allready know what the brits did to defend their small little island...they fought against the odds..as america didnt come into the war until much later on and began to recognoise the fact after Pearl harbour..ie a direct attack on american soil and only then did they fully appreciate such attacks on their terroitory..Britian had experienced these attacks for years and had fought the nazis at home and abroad..and suffered enourmous casulties..as did many european countries before the americans ever participated.. I think his point is more about guilt on both sides.. During the closing stages of the war in europe the allies committed many attrocities and slaughter insued mainly the fire bombing of cities in germany...Dresdan Hamburg and many others were fire bombed and tens of thousands of civilians died in the course of about a week...this was later written out of history for many decades..and history now tells us that these attacks werent needed..because germany was defeated for all intent and purpose.. other attrocities would argueably include that the allies knew(probably for a fact) the existence of concentration camps in central europe..and didnt bomb the rail links that led to them.. Basically the allies were pretty good at slaughtering as well.. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by x-filer what the German soldiers was not bad. They did what soldiers are meant to do. However what the Nazis did was bad and most ppl pnly remember the Nazis not the German who was fighting for his country. |
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| Originally posted by jonSun Fighting for your country is not invading neighboring countys & rounding up civilians for death camps & killing many more civilians on the spot regardless of religion or culture. Germany didnt just kill the jews. They killed many Christians in cold blood for defending jews. |
) someimes a leader goes further than he'll allow the public to see. and for god's sake, don't bash the good soldiers for doing their job.
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| Originally posted by George Smiley How many people did they allies "slaughter"? I dont think most of the Germans that faught in WW2 were Nazis, they had no choice, just like the Ennglish that were sent to fight (and then the Americans a few years later) |
If you're in the army you do what your superior officer tells you to, it's a simple as that.
That's the corner stone that allows the army as a whole to exist.
So stop hassling the germans, they are the same as any other country's soldiers in WW2. They followed their orders. If you want to blame someone, blame Hitler, but the soldiers should be honoured for doing their duty.
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| Originally posted by Cal If you're in the army you do what your superior officer tells you to, it's a simple as that. That's the corner stone that allows the army as a whole to exist. So stop hassling the germans, they are the same as any other country's soldiers in WW2. They followed their orders. If you want to blame someone, blame Hitler, but the soldiers should be honoured for doing their duty. |
Here's something from the Forrest Gump script
A DRILL SERGEANT is in Forrest's face as Forrest stands in line with the other recruits.
DRILL SERGEANT
Gump! What's your sole purpose in
this Army?
FORREST
To do whatever you tell me, Drill
Sergeant!
DRILL SERGEANT
Godamnit, Gump! You're a goddamned
genius! That's the most outstanding
answer I've ever heard. You must
have a godamned I.Q. of a hundred
and sixty! You are godamned gifted,
Private Gump!
Just think about that for a minute
What is it about our northen neighbors that so many folks have a severe brain frostbite???
I'm sorry - all this nonsene about following orders. I'd say that those who were just following orders constituted less than 10% of the total force. This also included the cowards who believed in cause but didn't want to die for it and surrendered to the allies whinnying "We follow orders! we don't want to kill!"
... The rest were ready to die for what they believed in - Arian nation.
Sure, just like in any army - you have "soft hearted" soldiers or those who don't share the ideology. However, I find it hard to justify the execution of women and children as "those were my orders".
personally, faced with a choice - I'd rather shoot my commanding officer and take my chances with the consequences than kill innocent beings.
But that's just me... Of course, history also tells us of legions of Ukrainian soldiers who joined German forces to fight the "Bolsheviks" and "Kikes"... Those were probably not subject or too opposed to german orders, being volunteers and all... Ooops, sorry - breached a sensitive subject here. 
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| Originally posted by Q5echo while your points are valid, without including the reich's scortched earth policies in reteat, i assumed his position reflected the context of D-day and the defenders of the occupied French beaches of Normandy. |
Re: Germans are "speaking out" about WWII
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| Originally posted by anuneventrade http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2004Jul23.html Huh. That's funny. From the title you would think that you would gain some amazing new perspective about why the Germans slaughtered thousands of people - This article didn't say jack shit. |
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