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Ontario

So the Ontario Liberal party promised us change.

What has changed? Taxes have gone up. More restrictions on our lifestyle than ever. More user fees. Higher tuition

What hasnt changed? The nurses are still bitching about the government. The teachers are still bitching about the government. The students are still bitching about the government. More services in health care are being cut. More social programs are being cut.

So basically what we have now are all the cuts, protests and bad stuff that we had with the tories but with higher taxes and a government who acts like our legal guardian.

My question is, if taxes are up and services are down where is all that extra money going to????

Higher taxes = fewer services? only in McGuintyland!

wasn't there a tuition freeze? For the next two years.

quote:

Originally posted by drgoodvibe wasn't there a tuition freeze? For the next two years.

Not if bob rae's recommendations goes through. didnt you see them all protesting last week? (as they should)

At least under harris we got tax cuts along with service cuts and a balanced budget. All we get with these guys is higher taxes, debt, and fewer services.
(and parental guidance)

last time I checked there wasn't a balanced budget. 5 billion debt = balance budget?

and as for Tution so far the mandate is that there is a 2 year freeze on tuition whether it goes up after that is to be determined. Don't whine about something that could happen in the future, we already have a freeze just like they promised.

rae is reccomending that the 2 year freeze be lifted if universities can show that teh tuition hike is needed. Its complete BS. Making education only for the super rich, and you only get rich with an education.
I do think PS education should be a giant financial burden, it weeds people out but its getting rediculous

No TTC funding + rebuidling of buses = Mike Harrisland

I'm really pissed about what Maguinty has done but don't think that if John Tory comes to power that he'll be the ultimiate "angel" of a politician either.

We actually need HIGHER tuitions like in the U.S. In exchange, we need far more student financial aid.


In the U.S., tutitions are high. But that serves a very good purpose - it forces the rich to plow money into the system. That money then gets redistributed through financial aid, which is FAR AND AWAY more than what exists in Canada.

In Canada, however, low tuitions mean that the poor subsidize the rich, since everyone pays the same low fee.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 At least under harris...

That's one of the main issues at play. We endured the rule of Ernie Eves, one of the most wasteful Tory premiers Ontario has ever seen. His biggest feat? The 2003 Budget, released in a vacuum, outside of the scrunity of legislature... While technically "balanced", it fell just short of book-cooking and invoked official rulings to prevent its release.

Ernie's married-into-money lawyer background shone through for Ontarians and today we continue to feel the sting... ************ of the current party in power.

But I'm sure you had that in mind while you graced us with another one of your Liberal-blasting threads.

Ernie Eves is a liberal.

quote:

Originally posted by ShadoWolf Ernie Eves is a liberal.

He's far worse.

What does little to instill confidence is that the party handed over the reins as Mike Harris' successor, much to the detriment of the province.

quote:

Originally posted by RobbyG. No TTC funding + rebuidling of buses = Mike Harrisland

And what exactly is Mcguinty doing?

quote:

Originally posted by amb_ That's one of the main issues at play. We endured the rule of Ernie Eves, one of the most wasteful Tory premiers Ontario has ever seen. His biggest feat? The 2003 Budget, released in a vacuum, outside of the scrunity of legislature... While technically "balanced", it fell just short of book-cooking and invoked official rulings to prevent its release. Ernie's married-into-money lawyer background shone through for Ontarians and today we continue to feel the sting... ************ of the current party in power. But I'm sure you had that in mind while you graced us with another one of your Liberal-blasting threads.

I didnt like Eves much compared to Harris either but he was far better than what we have now.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 I didnt like Eves much compared to Harris either but he was far better than what we have now.

Uhh...

Mr. Eves walked away with an $810,000 pension (Mr. Harris: $864,000). This of course being after the Tories did away with the so-called "gold-plated" MPP pension plans.

He costed the public at least $350,000 per year, with nearly $200,000 of that for his own personal benefit.

Partial breakdown:
- $111,004/year salary (1998-1999)
- $18,702 total subsidised travel costs (chauffer) (1998-1999)
- $15,400/year Toronto rent
- $153,344/year "miscellaneous expenses"
- $90,116.58 on food, travel and hotel accommodation (1992-1995)
- $700/month - Toiletries and dry cleaning
- $25,000/year - clothing budget
- Monthly expenses exceeded his monthly income by $12,000 (1999 to 2002)
- Renowned for "personal" items being paid for by public money (1996 Ediburgh golf trip, cabinet minister family shopping trips)
Source: "THE INTERIM", Frank Kennedy, February 2002 (Interim Publishing, Toronto)

What would you do if the previous government left you a state of financial affairs that demanded that you make difficult decisions, even decisions that directly contravened your election platform?

Or would you take the Ontario PC route, and change the laws to allow for fiscal standards that would place the blame squarely on the previous government, banking on the possibility of sales of Crown assets, garnished with dubious economic forecasting?

I'm not necessarily defending McGuinty's Liberals, in fact I really do believe they're guilty of inaction in a number of areas. It's not necessarily an extremely prosperous time, given the currency situation and the energy market, but they certainly need to pull up their socks and continue on with the difficult decisions...

Your posts continue to reflect the one-sided nature of your thoughts and are bordering on stale.

^^^^^^^^ +1

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 And what exactly is Mcguinty doing?

Umm...well for starters the Provincial Government is restoring funding to public transit & now the Feds are too...Another idiotic move that Harris pulled was having a used car salesman as Transport Minister.Paladini's interests we're to have MORE cars (proferably HIS cars from his dealership) on the road & leave the TTC by the curb...Talk about a conflict of interest

I have no faith in the same old parties coming to power.Its always a see-saw battle and so we need REAL change with drastic change and NOT cater to the rich/Bay street crowd.

Correct me if Im wrong but the liberals promised things and made their plan on the basis that the outgoing party didnt have debt like they said they didnt.

But then it turned out there was a big debt and now the liberals cant stick to their plan because the variables are all changed.

It doesnt look like its their fault.

Do I have my information wrong here?

quote:

Originally posted by Cal Correct me if Im wrong but the liberals promised things and made their plan on the basis that the outgoing party didnt have debt like they said they didnt. But then it turned out there was a big debt and now the liberals cant stick to their plan because the variables are all changed. It doesnt look like its their fault. Do I have my information wrong here?

That pretty much sums it up...amb has posted some info about the PC cooking their books to make them look better but once the Libs had an audit then they had to make changes.Apparently Maguinty was SOO pissed when he found out AFTER he was elected about the defficit and that he couldn't carry out his plans.

quote:

Originally posted by Cal Correct me if Im wrong but the liberals promised things and made their plan on the basis that the outgoing party didnt have debt like they said they didnt. But then it turned out there was a big debt and now the liberals cant stick to their plan because the variables are all changed. It doesnt look like its their fault. Do I have my information wrong here?

Yeah, that's one side of the equation.

quote:

Originally posted by Cal Correct me if Im wrong but the liberals promised things and made their plan on the basis that the outgoing party didnt have debt like they said they didnt. But then it turned out there was a big debt and now the liberals cant stick to their plan because the variables are all changed. It doesnt look like its their fault. Do I have my information wrong here?

The problem is there are several press releases and newspaper articles where McGuinty states he knows for a fact that the books weren't balanced prior to the actual election. Yet he still clung to his promises throughout the campaign on the assumption the books were balanced.

May 19, 2003 (about 5 months before the election):
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/...3/19/c3258.html
"The Dominion Bond Rating Service, the chief economist at the Toronto Dominion Bank, and Standard and Poors all agree: the erratic Ernie Eves regime has clobbered Ontario citizens with a big and growing deficit - as much as $2 billion, the economists say."

Again, September 4, 2003:
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/...3/04/c7315.html
[Quoted from the Globe and Mail]:The government claims it will balance its books in the current fiscal year, which began on April 1. Most other estimates peg the shortfall at somewhere between $2-billion and $4-billion, which is serious money, even for a budget that will spend close to $71-billion...[end quote]

"Two senior economists and a forensic auditor - including the Chief
Economist of Scotiabank - have confirmed that our financial plan is more responsible and prudent than the Eves 2003 budget, and that our platform would lead to both balanced budgets in all four years and increased surpluses to invest in Ontario's future."

... ok ... so they KNEW the deficit was going to come in around $2-4 billion. The actual deficit the Liberals reported came in at $5.5 billion. Keep in mind this number could just as easily be massaged upwards like the PCs massaged the deficit downwards to claim it was balanced. Obviously it is in the Liberals interests to make this initial number higher than it may actually be to pin blame on a previous government and "show" how much more of an improvement they can make. I think it's fairly safe to say the "true" number probably lies somewhere between $4-5 billion. Knowing that the deficit could be potentially that high even before he was elected, why was McGuinty continuing to make false statements that he would have a balanced budget in all 4 years?

quote:

Originally posted by drgoodvibe last time I checked there wasn't a balanced budget. 5 billion debt = balance budget? and as for Tution so far the mandate is that there is a 2 year freeze on tuition whether it goes up after that is to be determined. Don't whine about something that could happen in the future, we already have a freeze just like they promised.

you're arguing to the deaf who hear what they want to hear...Bob Rae did indeed recommend a freeze until his other recommendations (like more grants, repayment tied to income, etc) are implemented.

why bother...people will just spout anti-Liberal b.s. anyway

the best part is that these whiners think that the Conservatives or the NDP would somehow be radically different, lol. How quickly they forget that the outgoing Conservatives BLATANTLY LIED about the financial state of gov't coffers...but we're supposed to forget all that and just rag on the Liberals.

it's become funny...and it's why I rarely bother to even post in these threads anymore. The Conservative Alliance is a joke...the NDP remains overly idealstic...the Liberals are the best we've got right now (and yes I know they are not some utopian gov't).

Amazing that none of the usual suspects have many words of praise for the good things the Liberals have done...as if EVERYTHING they've done all these years has been horrible.

pathetic whiners...

Honestly though... in the past 10-12 years, what HAS the federal Liberal government accomplished that is noteworthy?

I'd say balancing the budget / generating a surplus is just about all.

How was this achieved?

a) Had a lot to do with policies that were implemented prior to the Liberals arriving (ie Free Trade with the US substantially bumping up the Ontario economy as well as revenue from the GST.)

b) Lucking out in that the North American economy has had some of the most prosperous times ever.

c) Axing 50,000 federal employees (25% of the workforce).

d) Slashing health and social transfer payments to the provinces to the tune of billions (i.e. passing the buck along... and not the good "buck" either!)

... Is this really something to be proud of? Child Poverty is worse than it was 15-20 years ago when all parties agreed it would be eradicated by 2000. The only innovative solution to health care they can come up with is to throw even more money at the problem. It hasn't worked in the past, why will it now?

I'm not suggesting the other parties would have been any better, but really, this country has basically been on auto-pilot for the past 10-15 years with no one behind the steering wheel.

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT How quickly they forget that the outgoing Conservatives BLATANTLY LIED about the financial state of gov't coffers...but we're supposed to forget all that and just rag on the Liberals.

I don't think anyone's implying that there was no corruption in the outgoing Conservative government at the time, but it can't even begin to measure up to the corruption we've seen in the Liberal government(s). Technically, their campaign is racketeering under the U.S. RICO statues. Too bad Canada doesn't have similar safeguards...

rico! rico suave!

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